Hackysacks - Pilot Chute Malfunction

[LouDiamond 1]

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The pics in the thread linked above showed a tube handle - surely that's not enough weight, is it?

It is not thought to be as long as it attached correctly(see linked picture) and it's what many wingsuiters use as well as some BASE PCs.The BASE hat handle is also used on some BASE PCs to prevent the bridle from knotting on itself. An actual floating handle feels like a twig stuck inside your PC.


BASE HAT


PVC handle

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[mnealtx 0]

If the slipknot is tight enough to get caught on an external handle, wouldn't it also tend to get caught on the internal handle? I see it as a 'bulk' issue with the handle than a 'snag point' issue with it being external/internal to the PC. The internal rope handle and hat handle seems to be an improvement in that respect, with the concurrent risk of missing a 'grab' for it in a crisis.

(Obviously) Just my opinion....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[councilman24 36]

Base Hat link doesn't work for me.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[mnealtx 0]

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Base Hat link doesn't work for me.

It didn't for me either, but with some digging around in the store section I found a picture of it.

It looks similar to the filled double bottom on those 'bop'em clown' things we had as kids...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[councilman24 36]

I don't BASE jump, but it seems to me that I'd want something I could get a better grip on. I understand not wanting something to snag or knot up but I was just watching some BASE on skydivingmovies.com and saw some stowed jumps. And saw some slightly iffy throws.

Are the internal floating handles very popular?

The freefly handle starting point in the link in Phree's most is a VERY good example of a floppy handle that I consider easier to have knot up.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[skydiverek 55]

One more knot (attached).

Basically, the PVC (plastic tube) handle does NOT have that space between itself and the pilotchute (i.e. is sewn closer to the PC), so the bridle cannot tie there (or at least is less likely to). Morover, the shape of PVC lying flat on the PC is more snagproof (as compared to spherical hackey - think about that).

[councilman24 36]

It depends on how the PVC handle is attached. Some are/have been floppy. Attached like a hackey. Some have a piece of tape through the tube and sewn down flat on each side. But not all. And I've installed some hackeys the same way when replacing tubing. The apex lines of the PC are already there. I cut the hackey tapes short and sew it on close.

And to a previous post, I've seen pullout handles flailing around get knotted around the PC too. Probably a bad deployment but still...

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[DeNReN 0]

Is this type of malfunction likely the result of a lazy throw allowing the p/c to "bounce" around in the burble or is it just as likely with a good placment of the p/c into the airstream?

[Butters 0]

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It seems to me that the "slipknot" is more likely to occur due to someone hanging onto the pc, where the bridle is floating, regardless of the handle type/attachment - do you disagree?

I agree. However, the handle does appear to matter ...

Provided the handle acts as a snag point, yes.... howver, I have also seen several examples of bridles slipknotted around the middle of pc's...so it appears to be a 'luck of the draw' issue, at least to me.

But is that because of the packing method or a heavy handle allowing the bridle to rise above the PC and form a loop that the PC passes through?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Butters 0]

Are those knots most likely due to a particular packing method?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[LouDiamond 1]

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Base Hat link doesn't work for me.

See attached picture of a PC hat.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[LouDiamond 1]

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If the slipknot is tight enough to get caught on an external handle, wouldn't it also tend to get caught on the internal handle?

While I don't think anything is impossible, I think it is very unlikely that an internal handle constructed as I described could cause this issue. As pictured in one of the previous posts, the weight and way the hackey or PVC handle is attached can create issues where the bridle wraps around the attachment point between the handle and top of the PC. An internal handle has very little weight, is inside(sewn) the top of the PC. Imagine your current PC with no hackey attached to it and only a small portion of the PC sticking out of the BOC, thats what a PC with an internal handle looks like when viewed on the jumper.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[erdnarob 1]

Packing a main parachute should be considered as a general expression. Packing a main consists of : Four set of line check, collapsing the slider, cocking the pilot chute, folding the main, set up the slider, S folding the main into its bag, stowing the lines, setting the bagged canopy into the container and closing the container and finally folding the pilot chute and set it in its pocket plus routing the bridle under the proper flap....all of that is part of the packing. Therefore if you have a bridle/hackey entanglement, it is a packing problem. That happens if the bridle cord is not enough isolated from the hackey. In the method described by Brian Germain, the bridle is stowed very inside the pilot chute right on the mesh. A lot of people stow the bridle inside the folded pilot chute right on the ripstop which can cause the bridle to slip out earlier and possibly comes in contact with the hackey. One cannot imagine what foolish things can happen in our back when the pilot chute by any chance get into the burble.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[Butters 0]

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Packing a main parachute should be considered as a general expression. Packing a main consists of : Four set of line check, collapsing the slider, cocking the pilot chute, folding the main, set up the slider, S folding the main into its bag, stowing the lines, setting the bagged canopy into the container and closing the container and finally folding the pilot chute and set it in its pocket plus routing the bridle under the proper flap....all of that is part of the packing.

Yes, I know. However, the context of this thread is about the bridle, PC, and handle (not main) and thus packing method in this thread refers to the bridle, PC, and handle (not the main).

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Therefore if you have a bridle/hackey entanglement, it is a packing problem.

I'm still under the impression that a heavy handle, holding onto the handle, or weak throw is more likely to be the cause of an entanglement.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[hookitt 0]

If a loop is formed in the bridle after the pilot chute is out of the pouch but before it's released, the pilot chute or part of it can be trapped as it passes through the loop.

If it makes it through all the way, there's a knot in the bridle. If it makes it only part way, some of the pc or the handle is trapped.

That's why it's important to get it out and let it go quickly.

Added: Yes it's still important to have a secure lower profile handle and preferably a very lightweight one.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Skydog0223 0]

The PVC handle has been around ever since throwaway pilot chutes were invented, I used to have an orange one, cheap & simple but not as cool looking as a hackysack! that's why every man & his dog got em as soon as they got popular

I've attached 2 pics of my new pad & the old hacky for ref!

"Know your own limits"

[Skydog0223 0]

I'll be looking to buy a new rig in 2009 I'm considering now changing to a Pullout style pilot chute, I jumped one years ago and you pull the pin which is connected to the base of the pilot chute as well as the small lanyard attaching the handle to the pin. THe pin is also straight, the piot chute is packed in the container on top of the bag, does anybody have experience with this type??

"Know your own limits"

[hookitt 0]

Lots of us jump pull-outs. For regular skydives (meaning non-wingsuit), it's my preferred deployment system.

This is a queue for all the people to say it has a better chance of a total. Well, don't pack it wrong. It's a simple system. Very clean.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Skydog0223 0]

That was always the downside, the pad getting dislodged and out of reach

"Know your own limits"

[skydiverek 55]

Horseshoe and PC-in-tow are very difficult to get on pull-out (much less likely than on throw-out).

[skydiverek 55]

How about a Freefly-Hacky (attached)?:

"Love the security of your freefly handle, but miss the grip of your hacky? Continuing a legacy of innovation, Mirage Systems has introduced a solution to give you the best of both worlds. We have designed the Mirage Freefly Hacky. The Freefly Hacky is identical to the traditional hacky with the exception of a tuck tab that snugly fits under the corner flap of your main container.

This allows the jumper to get a full palm's grip on the handle, while greatly reducing the chance of a premature deployment. Gone are the days of a pilot chute that walks out of its pouch! Just like the Mirage Freefly Handle, this hacky remains in-place until deployment, even at freefly speeds!

The Freefly Hacky option costs no more than the Freefly Handle or the traditional Hacky Handle. It's just one more way that Mirage provides extra value in a rig that is truly custom built for you. If you wish to choose the Freefly Hacky, just specify in the Special Instructions section of your order form."

[hookitt 0]

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That was always the downside, the pad getting dislodged and out of reach

That was only the down side on poorly designed pull-outs. People will manage to screw up any deployment system all on their own but give them a sub par design to work with and it just becomes a hazard.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Skydog0223 0]

I've seen this type of handle a couple of times, I've not examined one close up. After only 5 jumps on my new freefly handle I like it. It's easier to grip in freefall than one would expect after trying it on the ground!

"Know your own limits"

[AlRedler 0]

I jump pull out and ordered it on my rig last year against the current trend. I liked the way it seems more freefly friendly with no pilot chute material in the airflow in sit. Also it makes the container look neater and smarter. (Well looks are important too!)

Two things against that I hear about a fair bit. A dropped pad needs to be either found quickly or left alone and switch to reserve. I have dropped mine once and it suddenly felt fast until I reached and found it first attempt.

Also, a number of people develop shoulder problems from the angle and force of pull. I saw someone recently who found she could no longer reach and pulled reserve instead. She then got her rig modified to throw away. A smooth fast pull and throw is needed, not hanging on to the inflated pilot chute dragging the arm.

As I see it there are pros and cons with both systems. it is worth reading up and talking to others to see what seems right for you. And learn the EPs for the particular system too.