RevJim 0 #1 December 9, 2005 ??? Opinions, please, in general. What are your thoughts? For me, if you must point to the end result to make getting there tolerable.... bad juju.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #2 December 9, 2005 Kind of a broad question, Rev. I think too broad to make a categorical yes/no answer. Have a specific scenario in mind?Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #3 December 9, 2005 Nothing specific. Just looking for opinions.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 49 #4 December 9, 2005 QuoteNothing specific. Just looking for opinions. In my opinion, the fatalities incurred during the Normandy landings and those incurred by the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are examples of where the ends did indeed justify the means. Vietnam suggests the opposite. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 1010 #5 December 9, 2005 My understanding of the Church's teaching is that doing something or a string of somethings that are immoral isn't acceptable even for a "good" result. Just-war doctrine covers errol's post above - the sooner the war ended the better for ours, and ultimately, all sides. In our time, in my view it is immoral to kill the unborn for their organs etc even though that may achieve a good result for an already-born person, who needs the organ to live. (Sorry for tossing your thread to SC , just calling it like I see it.) You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #6 December 9, 2005 If this thread ends up in Speakers Corner, do you know what that means?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 1010 #7 December 9, 2005 QuoteIf this thread ends up in Speakers Corner, do you know what that means? the thread will have a bad end? You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 49 #8 December 9, 2005 QuoteMy understanding of the Church's teaching is that doing something or a string of somethings that are immoral isn't acceptable even for a "good" result. Like the Romans crucifying Christ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 49 #9 December 9, 2005 QuoteIf this thread ends up in Speakers Corner, do you know what that means? Is that the 'end' RevJim had in mind? Or perhaps creating this thread was a 'means' to another 'end'? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #10 December 9, 2005 In the end, what does it all mean?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 49 #11 December 9, 2005 QuoteIn the end, what does it all mean? That you bent over to pick up the soap? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #12 December 9, 2005 QuoteIn the end, what does it all mean? A very good question. One I'll hopefully not know the answer to for a very, very long time. Of course ending the wars quickly seems like a justification, but tell that to all the innocent Japanese civilians. Guilt by association is certainly not justification. If that were true, well, I happen to miss the towers, and hurt for those that lost lives there. Was the spread of Christianity justification for the Crusades? Not even I can say yes to that one. Really. One. Just one example of the means being justified. It's all I ask. (Got off work early tonight, and I'm bored....could ya tell?)It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 49 #13 December 9, 2005 Using this line of thinking as a counter argument:- " but tell that to all the innocent Japanese civilians, dead rabbits, unborn babies,...." is not going to get you many examples, now is it? Quote (Got off work early tonight, and I'm bored....could ya tell?) I have two hours to kill before home-time - no complaints here! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #14 December 9, 2005 I mean to what end? At work and bored.....-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #15 December 9, 2005 No, I don't believe so in most cases but I can understand that the end result could sometimes be so good as to nullify concerns on the means to get there.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #16 December 9, 2005 QuoteNo, I don't believe so in most cases but I can understand that the end result could sometimes be so good as to nullify concerns on the means to get there. See highlighted. While i technically agree with you, I guess, I just can't fathom any senario where there would be justification. It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #17 December 9, 2005 Ooooh, hypothetical scenario. You have a bad guiy in the bag, you know he's up to no good so you apply some 'intense interrogation' techniques. You uncover a plot to fly a plane into a densely populated downtown area. You save 3,000 lives, avert a war and 10 years of civil disturbance in a far off country, but you compromise hghly held principles, nobody dies, everybody wins. Except the guy on the wrong end of a car battery.... But do the ends justify the means? Speakers corner in 3...2....1....-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #18 December 9, 2005 Can't say about that, as no-one would ever know, ya know? People will come up with some really off the wall shit under intense pressure. An admittance is not proof, sadly. The person dies. The disaster never happens, but was it all in the person's head? Was it real? Nothing ever came to fruition, so you'll never know. If you were the one doing the interrogation, do you repeat it in the future under the delusion that you are doing the right thing, or do you detest yourself for killing a person based solely on his/her own words, given only under extreme duress? Nope, no justification. IMO of course.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #19 December 9, 2005 I think he was talking about "extreme interrogation", not murder.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #20 December 9, 2005 QuoteSpeakers corner in 3...2....1.... No "visable" greenies online yet, but it sure looks to be heading that way... It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #21 December 9, 2005 QuoteI think he was talking about "extreme interrogation", not murder. If it ends in death, is there a difference?It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #22 December 9, 2005 Hmmm yes I see your point of view. Okay a similar scenario, a friend who you know utilises less than othrodox interviewing practices, (unpalatable to you, but nevertheless fruitful) comes across similar information to the scenario above and passes it on to you, do you act on that information? Even if it just to check out its authenticity, again maybe averting an event that could cost you dearly?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #23 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteI think he was talking about "extreme interrogation", not murder. If it ends in death, is there a difference? But he said "nobody dies"? I can see that this would be a justifiable situation. For almost every rule, there's an exception,eh?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #24 December 9, 2005 You know, leads are either followed or ignored daily. Most come from unknown sources. To ignore ANY lead could have dire consequences. Searching a bedroom for C-4=acceptable, I guess. Storming in with guns blazing=unacceptable, I guess. If something is found, good. If not, good AND not good. Good meaning that this was a dead lead, not good because someones privacy was invaded for no reason. "Mini-nac has been kidnapped. I beat the crap out of a skydiver and he says he's in "so and so's house." Maxi-nac storms in, demanding, screaming, punching, heck maybe even shooting. Mini isn't there. In fact, they aren't even skydivers, nor had they heard of Mini. Good or Bad? 2- Maxi storms in shooting, and finds his boy. The perps try to run away, and out of rage, Maxi guns 'em down. Good ro Bad? 3- Perps are trying to run away and Maxi guns them down, not noticing they are carrying mini, who gets caught in the crossfire. Good or Bad? 4- Mini was actually out with Mommy all day, but the house maxi goes to is the site of a bad crack deal, and he gets gunned down. So many ways to play out a lead... Glad I don't work in government.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #25 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteI think he was talking about "extreme interrogation", not murder. If it ends in death, is there a difference? But he said "nobody dies"? I can see that this would be a justifiable situation. For almost every rule, there's an exception,eh? Missed this line, huh? Quotenobody dies, everybody wins. Except the guy on the wrong end of a car battery....It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
