Question about Javelin

[millertime24 8]

So for Christmas my brother gave me a javelin j4 with a spectre 210 main and a pd 23? reserve. Now he told me the rig wasnt good for free-flying because the tuck-tab on the closing pin cover was too worn out. I figured I could keep the flap from opening if I sewed a little velco on the right and left container flaps and on the closing pin cover. I did this and now I'm pretty sure this thing wont pop open in say a sit or stand. I tied my bridal to a doorknob in my place and walked until the d-bag came out of the container. This prooved pretty easy, but what I'm really worried about is the velcro keeping the container closed and ending up with a pc in tow (I'm not really sure how much force those things pull with). So my question is was this an ok thing to do or should I take it off?

-Mike

Muff #5048

[PhreeZone 15]

This was a really bad idea. Before approaching something like this you really should have talked to a rigger and discussed in detail what you wanted to have happen. Just going and randomly sewing on your container is a really good way to screw something up that could end up getting the rig grounded as unairworthy or putting yourself into a situation that causes structural failure of the rig.

Did you sew anthing to the side flaps or just the top/bottom flap? What type of thread did you use? What type of velcro?

Did you contact the manufactor for approval for this modification and have the paperwork for it if a rigger asks to see it at the next repack?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[TonyJ 0]

i wouldn't jump it. but im kinda weird about things like this..why don't you find a master rigger or just send it back to sunpath for the repair? You can even change the colors when they are working on the flap if desired...Got a boc?....tony

[millertime24 8]

Gotcha. Ill take off the velcro. No harm no foul.

Muff #5048

[riggerpaul 1]

As others have said, this was not a good idea.

Minimally, the tuck tab on the cover flap should be repaired if that is the source of the problem.

The rig is obviously used if the tuck tab is worn out. How old is the rig? My experience with some older Javelins is that they won't always stay closed even when the tab is new/repaired. Personally, I have a 1994 Javelin J4 that won't reliably stay closed during freeflying, so it is still not suitable for freeflying even after the tab was replaced.

Removing your modification may be tricky to do without damaging something. I suggest you take the rig to a rigger and let them decide how to proceed. A local master rigger may be able to get the rig into shape, or he may suggest letting Sunpath do it. Letting the manufacturer fix it is a bit of a bother, but they will have the final word on what will or will not work to fix your rig. For your peace of mind, this is probably the best route, especially if the winter weather has you stuck on the ground in the first place.

[millertime24 8]

Ok looks like thats the route Im gonna go then.

Muff #5048

[2shay 0]

buy a vector 3

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[upndownshop 0]

Quote

buy a vector 3

DOOH!!! There you go again, LOL
Free rig, ahh let him put a few bucks in it till he is ready to buy something..LOL

But you know that J4 is real comfy....

couldnt resisit my firend LOL

[millertimeunc 0]

I'm the one who gave him the rig. It had around 140 jumps on it when I got it, and I put about 100 more on it. It's a J4 DOM 1994, and the tuck tab is nowhere near worn out. Before I gave him the rig, the main closing flap would come open in a sit and expose the bridle no matter what I did to it. I tried everything. I'm thinking it might be because the J4 is sized for a 190, but you can squeeze a 210 in it, and I did. Maybe most of the mid-90's Javelins have a problem with the main closing flap popping open in various freefly orientations, but I've never looked into it. An experienced rigger would probably know more about that.

As for the modification, the main lift web wasn't touched, and the mod is nothing that can't be undone in a matter of minutes by a rigger with no compromise to the rig. Basically, nothing structurally integral to the rig was tampered with.

...And yes, the J4 is very comfy, but not as comfy as my new Mirage

The best things in life are dangerous.

[upndownshop 0]

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I'm the one who gave him the rig. It had around 140 jumps on it when I got it, and I put about 100 more on it. It's a J4 DOM 1994, and the tuck tab is nowhere near worn out. Before I gave him the rig, the main closing flap would come open in a sit and expose the bridle no matter what I did to it. I tried everything. I'm thinking it might be because the J4 is sized for a 190, but you can squeeze a 210 in it, and I did. Maybe most of the mid-90's Javelins have a problem with the main closing flap popping open in various freefly orientations, but I've never looked into it. An experienced rigger would probably know more about that.

As for the modification, the main lift web wasn't touched, and the mod is nothing that can't be undone in a matter of minutes by a rigger with no compromise to the rig. Basically, nothing structurally integral to the rig was tampered with.

...And yes, the J4 is very comfy, but not as comfy as my new Mirage

I know the real early 90's had some issues not sure if 94 was one, I dont think so. Yes the 210 could have a major role in why. It cant reach far enough to fold properly and stay, due to the extra bulk shortening its reach, so to speak.

Ahh the mirage, but have you tried a new Javelin on your shoulders. Hell why do I keep pushing them, I dont work there anymore. LOL

Enjoy the mirage and be safe

[jimmytavino 16]

Man !!!......

you got a NICE brother.....


jmy

[riggerpaul 1]

The '94 Javelin still has the old style flaps that tend to open in freefly.

The changes that were made later include tucking the reserve cover flap into a slot in the reserve bottom flap. I believe the main flaps were changed so that the top and cover flaps are wider and the tuck tab tucks deeper to be more secure.

I'm not sure what you mean about the main sizing affecting the main cover flap. I have put mains from 190 to 282 into this container without main flap problems (for flat flying, of course). Now, the 282 was a Raven 4 that is known to pack small for its size. The 190s were Spectres, Sabres, and Sabre2s. My "main" main is a Spectre 210, and there are no problems with size or flaps.

[upndownshop 0]

Quote

The '94 Javelin still has the old style flaps that tend to open in freefly.

The changes that were made later include tucking the reserve cover flap into a slot in the reserve bottom flap. I believe the main flaps were changed so that the top and cover flaps are wider and the tuck tab tucks deeper to be more secure.

I'm not sure what you mean about the main sizing affecting the main cover flap. I have put mains from 190 to 282 into this container without main flap problems (for flat flying, of course). Now, the 282 was a Raven 4 that is known to pack small for its size. The 190s were Spectres, Sabres, and Sabre2s. My "main" main is a Spectre 210, and there are no problems with size or flaps.

Im not sure if i can explain it here but Ill give it a shot. The distance for the main cover tuck is a certain amount to the tucking point. If you create more bulk in the tray then the distance is now increased due to the bulge. The main flap now has to go up and over the buldge then back down. Now the flap is too short to tuck all the way under the "tucking" point.... Thus it doesnt saty. This can also affect the riser covers. They did have design problems in the early 90's and early 2000's with the odyssey. The wrong reserve or impropery packed reserve can do the same to the reserve flap as well. Does that make sense??? Not sure if I explained it right...

[riggerpaul 1]

[reply
Im not sure if i can explain it here but Ill give it a shot. The distance for the main cover tuck is a certain amount to the tucking point. If you create more bulk in the tray then the distance is now increased due to the bulge. The main flap now has to go up and over the buldge then back down. Now the flap is too short to tuck all the way under the "tucking" point.... Thus it doesnt saty. This can also affect the riser covers. They did have design problems in the early 90's and early 2000's with the odyssey. The wrong reserve or impropery packed reserve can do the same to the reserve flap as well. Does that make sense??? Not sure if I explained it right...

[upndownshop 0]

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[reply
Im not sure if i can explain it here but Ill give it a shot. The distance for the main cover tuck is a certain amount to the tucking point. If you create more bulk in the tray then the distance is now increased due to the bulge. The main flap now has to go up and over the buldge then back down. Now the flap is too short to tuck all the way under the "tucking" point.... Thus it doesnt saty. This can also affect the riser covers. They did have design problems in the early 90's and early 2000's with the odyssey. The wrong reserve or impropery packed reserve can do the same to the reserve flap as well. Does that make sense??? Not sure if I explained it right...

I'm still not quite getting it.

When I put a big main in the container I lengthen the main closing loop. My rig has the long closing loop attached to a tab at the bottom of the reserve container. When I lengthen the loop, the biggest change is the position of the bottom flap. The fit of the top, sides and closing flap stays about the same, all mostly controlled by the location of the grommet in the top flap. So even if there is a bit of a bulge, the top flap and the cover flap still fit about the same as with a smaller main. I try to keep the bulge to a minimum by keeping the bulk of the larger canopy in the longer space created by the longer closing loop, as opposed to letting the bulk build up a bulge in the middle. I will say that you have to be able to adjust your main pack job to make this happen. I've seen many newbie packers who don't fill the d-bag properly to the corners resulting in a pack where all the bulk is in the middle, causing a big bulge as you describe. This isn't, of course, limited to Javelins, but is a general packing problem that I see. When I see this, I usually try to show them how properly filling the d-bag will make things better.

Either way, this rig has never stayed closed for freeflying. Additionally, if I am front float on the King Air and the pilot doesn't pull back the left engine enough, I have also occasionally had the reserve cover flap open.

With the way you are packing you probably dont get the buldge like you say, most folks wont do it right. There is a basic rule, (doesnt always apply especially with the samller rigs) but one up or one down for main size from what it was built for. Anything after that tends to affect riser covers and main cover. No tollerance on the reserve.
And again the early 90's javs did have some issues, but it seems to be a "hit and miss" type situation. Again, I dont work for them anymore so this is not coming from the MFR. Just my experinece and things I have seen over the years.
On the reserve flap, sometimes they were just too short to reach the tuck point, no matter what you did to the reserve. Like many other MFRS in the industry, they go thru times where "sh%$ happnes" and it takes time to discover and redesign. I still think it is the most comfortable out there, other than the racer, but.....

[riggerpaul 1]

Thanks for your highly detailed explanations. It wasn't that I didn't believe you, but I'd never experienced the problems as you described them.

I am generally considered a packing snob and an anal retentive rigger, so I am not too surprised that others might have some difficulties that I don't usually encounter.
BTW - I too love my Javelin. I bought it new in 1994 and have jumped it happily ever since. I sometimes think about a new h/c, but I am so happy with the one I have it is difficult to justify spending the money. So long as I don't want to freefly, the rig is just perfect for me.

[upndownshop 0]

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Thanks for your highly detailed explanations. It wasn't that I didn't believe you, but I'd never experienced the problems as you described them.

I am generally considered a packing snob and an anal retentive rigger, so I am not too surprised that others might have some difficulties that I don't usually encounter.
BTW - I too love my Javelin. I bought it new in 1994 and have jumped it happily ever since. I sometimes think about a new h/c, but I am so happy with the one I have it is difficult to justify spending the money. So long as I don't want to freefly, the rig is just perfect for me.

Your very welcome, glad you are a detailed rigger, we need more of those. Javelins are a comfy rig I must say... Hard to believe they are still the number 1 selling rigs in the world, even with their delivery times being a mess at times, but I guess thats part of the price when your the best eh?
Be well and safe rigging.