Psychology/psychotherapy/psychiatry -your opinions, please?

[ACMESkydiver 0]

I'm trying to get an idea of what I'm really dealing with here with two female relatives (in-laws). Neither thinks they have a problem and neither will talk about it (). Here are the symptoms, give me an idea of what we might be looking at so we can have some idea of what to expect:

*Woman in her late 60's

*Has had these symptoms for 35+ years

*Paranoia -feels everyone is ganging up on her/frequently states that nobody cares about her
Delusional -strange things, like when our VCR went out, we were accused of ruining it intentionally so that our children wouldn't be happy. She accuses of us not loving one of our kids. She has accused another daughter of trying to stunt her children's growth.

*Wild mood swings -out of the blue, she'll suddenly 'snap' and start accusing people of not loving their kids or trying to stifle their growth. She'll push you away physically, throw things at you, and hang up on you if you're talking on the phone.

*Lies - Makes up events or exaggerates events that happened.

*Woman in her early 30's

*Know to have these syptoms for much of her life

*Lies -makes up incredible delusions about typical events in her life, i.e. said she was stabbed when she injured herself rollerblading. Said her ex husband tried to kill her by cutting her brake lines...the SUV crashed, and that's why she doesn't have it anymore -the truth is it was repossesed for non payment. Her delusions are getting out of control. She can't even tell the truth for minor things...she got the time wrong on a family BBQ and arrived 2 hours early. She said that my husband told her to come 2 hours early.

I know nobody can diagnose, but I'm so confused reading online definitions for Paranoid schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, OCD...it's confuisng to try to figure out where they might be so that we can at least know how to handle them.

I KNOW that a doctor's care is where they both need to be. However, the elderly woman is on medicare, and the younger woman was fired (again, she made up a story as to why, but I think they probably saw her symptoms becoming problematic. She was a school teacher. ) and has no medical insurance. Even if they had medical neither woman will admit to a problem and will refuse treatment.

I just need an idea of where to research more...are there any supplements or nautral herbal treatments that might help? I might be able to supply vitamins if they would help...

Please, any ideas? I have finally come to the point of realeasing my anger towards both of them for their behavior towards my kids and myself and replaced it with sympathy for a psychological condition that neither can help. I do need a way to cope with it, however. They are going to drive me over the edge.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[turtlespeed 212]

awwe Jaye . . . shit - this sounds "Familiar" - ummm - can't get to far into it . . .but, it sounds like the first description - "Blue" is B-P, with a mild case of dimentia . . . but that is just waht it sounds like from my experiance.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[wmw999 2,150]

You can tell each of them what you see, and tell them how it affects you, and then tell them that you'll be with them on YOUR terms, as much as YOU can handle.

You're not judging them that way (i.e. you tell them "I see xxx" or "I see yyy" instead of "you xxx" or "you yyy"). And you're giving them information they can use.

It's hard, and you might not be able to do it (i.e. if one lives with you). With age can come a focus on one's being the center of attention and the universe -- the first one does sound familiar on bad days.

You're right, you can't force them to go to the doctor. But you can say "I see xxx, and I can't deal with it right now, so I'm going home."

Good luck. It sounds really nasty, especially with people you want to love.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[airtwardo 6]

I have finally come to the point of releasing my anger towards both of them for their behavior towards my kids and myself and replaced it with sympathy for a psychological condition that neither can help. I do need a way to cope with it, however. They are going to drive me over the edge.


***

I have some experience in the situation you're describing, and have done a whole lotta research etc.

The short version is...
You are really doing about all you can from where / who you are...just realize that the person isn't 'whole' and it's not your fault...or 'theirs' for that matter.

Unless and until THAT person understands that they have an illness and take steps to correct it, you will be fighting a losing battle and wasting a lot of time energy and emotion just spinning your wheels.


I mean what can ya do, slip them a couple lithium's in their morning coffee?



One thing you 'can' do is to kind of keep a log with times, dates and what happened....sometime down the road you can show it to that person and say something along the line of....I know you don't 'realize' that you have outbursts...but look at this.....this isn't 'normal'....what can I do to help you?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Michele 1]

DISCLAIMER: I am not a Dr., just an opinionated lady posting on an internet forum.

Blue lady: sounds quite like Bipolar. Lots of the descriptions available won't talk about the manic side of things, which can present as anger rather than euphoria. The treatment can easily be received from a regular Dr., who understands the symptoms, and she might be well served by getting a caseworker and counseling. Both can be had if she's on medicaid/medicare (I think).

Red lady: sounds less like a "regular" mental health issue, and more like a long term, insanely ingrained self-worth issue. Making things up to sound better/victimized/et cetera is a classic sign of no real sense of self, no real idea where one belongs in the world. And the excuses she makes up (i.e. the repossession) are designed to deflect responsibility for her own actions, so she doesn't have to deal with the mess her life is. She may also have something called borderline personality disorder (commonly tagged as "I hate you don't leave me syndrome"); bpd manifests as fantastical thinking, magical thinking (i.e. lies), and a pushing away of people who care about them; when those folks leave after being pushed away, bpd people then say "no-one loves me...I'm pitiful, friendless, and alone...won't you help me?" and the cycle continues.

Medication can help for her, too, but for her, it's more a clinical therapeutical setting which will create the best difference for her.

Dealing with Blue Lady: understand she doesn't have control of her moods, and when she is experiencing anger, oftentimes it's directed at herself but displayed towards others. It's NOT personal; rather, it's an example of the way she treats herself...and most times, how she treats herself is far worse than how she treats you (even if it doesn't appear so). Recognize her moods, help her get help (if only to get a good diagnosis; but be aware that BiPolar is often very very difficult to diagnose properly, and even harder to medicate properly.). If she gets into a dangerous place (i.e. suicide), don't hesitate to hospitalize her.

Dealing with Red Lady: recognize what the illness is (research and learn), and decide if she's going to be in your life. It can be excruciatingly painful to have a bpd person in your life; the constant loveyou/hateyou thing that goes on is so very trying at times. Also, realize when she's lying, she's trying to cover up an error in her world (real or imagined, ala the rollerblading accident) or poor responsibility (ala the repossession). If you decide to confront her, realize that her defense mechanisms will surface, and it will become that you "hate" her, and are attacking her unfairly. Sometimes confrontation is good, sometimes it's bad. But either way, appropriate or not, the response will be an extreme over-defensiveness that can create communication difficulties if you take it personally. So don't take it personally.

Good luck; I understand the confusion you must feel when dealing with these folks. It's really, really hard...so if you need to talk, don't hesitate to pm me.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Turtle, Wendy, 'Twardo, Michele...thanks for your insites.

I have dealt with these two, in varying amounts depending upon where they lived (and yes they did BOTH live with us for a time ) for 12 years now.

I just had to cut both of them off from being alone with my kids. Grandma was horribly offended and hung up before I could explain. The younger woman I have not 'confronted' or told that she is not to have my kids alone, we just are 'busy' when she calls. I have taken her two daughters over here (I don't want her to start going on and on about not letting her daughters see my kids, because that's not what it's about but it is all about what she will try to make it into ) and her daughters are symptomatic already at ages 9 and 7. I think that is very much environmental and some poor parenting, though...

-can we move to California yet?!?!

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[fireflytx 0]

They should both try seeing a hypnotherapist. It can be very effective. I have recently just started studying the field and it is really interesting to see how the whole process works. The mind has a lot more power than you think it does. Medication is only a cover up. Hypnosis will help get to the root of the problem.

"Well behaved women rarely make history"

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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Hypnosis will help get to the root of the problem.

Only if they could admit to a problem, which neither will do. I know hypnosis can do wonderful things, but correcting an actual chemical imbalance I wouldn't put on that list. I have several books and CD's on the topic. I find it fascinating, too.
Thank you for the advice.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[chaoskitty 0]

The younger woman may qualify for medicaid.

[SkydiveStMarys 0]

Possibly a "family meeting"? You can try all you want to help but I think the best bet is to possibly listen to the advice given here, do a little research find a few different Drs and pass the info along to the closest family member, ie. the one that can "sign that person in or out of treatment".

At this point, yeah trying to figure it out may help you in dealing with them and possibly understand where they are coming from, but to do anything in the real scheme of things is up to the spouse/closest loved one.

I think if you feel any kind of threat from them you have all the right to distance yourself from them and the situation they bring with they visit.

Don't spin your wheels too much, you have your own little circus to deal with. I don't mean that in any kind of nasty way. Dealing with kids, husband, work, house, etc is enough for you to deal with.

Bobbi

Bobbi

A miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude.

[Michele 1]

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Medication is only a cover up. Hypnosis will help get to the root of the problem.

I am going to step back in and disagree with the medication comment, as it's incorrect. I'll agree that hypnosis can help, but it's a poor substitute for proper pharmacological intervention and psychiatric counseling. At best, it can help change ingrained behavior. The reason that behavior started in the first place will remain there, and the likelihood of a relapse is severe without proper treatment.

But I'm also going to leave it at that.
Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[goodnplentygirl 0]

What you have described sounds exactly like my step-mother.

I am sorry you are experiencing such problems, I hope everything works out.

my body, my choice

[jshatzkin 0]

Being a licensed psychotherapist who has worked inpatient and outpatient with all major psychiatric disorders, i offer my opinion. My disclaimer is: a clear diagnosis should be made with a professional who can interview/assess the person and family members, so I am not trying to diagnose, based only on information given, but give an idea.

The first lady (one in her 60's) with the mood swings: You would need to give a more in depth description of the mood swings and examples of them. Although Bipolar disorder is commonly thrown at anyone with "mood swings", it also depends on the duration of mood swings. When do they occur?Do they occur after somethings has happened or somebody has said something she does not like? If that is the case, than you are talking more about emotional dysregulation caused by external factors, which is indicative more of a personality disorder vs. Bipolar disorder. (though, someone can have both a personality disorder and bipolar disorder). Lies are not a direct symptom of bipolar disoder, and could again indicate some personality disorder. Paranoia can come with many psychiatric disorders, including depression. But the way you state her paranoia

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feels everyone is ganging up on her/frequently states that nobody cares about her
Delusional -strange things, like when our VCR went out, we were accused of ruining it intentionally so that our children wouldn't be happy. She accuses of us not loving one of our kids. She has accused another daughter of trying to stunt her children's growth.

It sounds more like personality disorder and not quite to the extent of psychotic paranoia. There is such thing as "paranoid personality disorder".


The other lady: She sounds like a total personality disorder case. It's hard to tell if all of her stories are "delusions", or more just histrionic attention getting lies for sympathy, attention, revenge etc. This is very common in people with personality disorders. There are 3 clusters of personality disorders, she would likely fall into cluster B: Histrionic, Borderline, Antisocial.

The thing is, even when you have a "diagnosis" for them, the behavior is still there. Depending on what professional you see, they could have different assessments and diagnoses! So, focus on the behaviors, not the diagnosis. Don't let them manipulate or run the family (many get the power this way). Most important, if they do not see a problem, then they are likely to not seek help. Forced help is often ineffective, as they have to have some sort of investment in treatment. And this includes pharmacological treatments, as they may refuse medication. Most people who have no insight into their "mental illness", only seek help on their own if they are about to lose something (job, spouse, family), and oftencome in complaining of what other people are doing to them. I am not trying to say they are hopeless, but you will drive yourself crazy trying to figure them out and trying to fix the problem. I know this from professional AND personal experience!

Jen

[skydiverbrian 0]

Why in the world are these people in your life? Was there too much calm and contentment? Was there too much happiness? No matter who these people are, and no matter their relationship to you -- they are toxic and should be discarded like yesterday's trash. It's noble, although remarkably co-dependant, to think that you should somehow be helping them with their problems. When they decide they want to change, they will. Until then, you are only feeding into the problem and making things worse for all of you.

In a world full of people, only some want to fly... isn't that crazy! --Seal

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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The first lady (one in her 60's) with the mood swings: You would need to give a more in depth description of the mood swings and examples of them. Although Bipolar disorder is commonly thrown at anyone with "mood swings", it also depends on the duration of mood swings. When do they occur?Do they occur after somethings has happened or somebody has said something she does not like? If that is the case, than you are talking more about emotional dysregulation caused by external factors, which is indicative more of a personality disorder vs. Bipolar disorder.

Yes, it almost always happens after you say anything that she can misconstrue into criticism. Here's an example: She said that she could bring the kids up to the house when they were done swimming, and I said that I was in the area and could pick them up. "Fine Jaye. You don't trust me. I guess my car isn't fancy enough for your children. I guess you don't think they'll be home on time. I guess this is how things are going to be with us, then." -At this point, from many years of experience, I have learned not to say another word. Any 'I'm sorry', or 'that's not what I meant' or argumentation at all just causes further escalation and fits or tears.

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There is such thing as "paranoid personality disorder".

I think you may have nailed it. That sounds like the closest fit.

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The other lady: She sounds like a total personality disorder case. It's hard to tell if all of her stories are "delusions", or more just histrionic attention getting lies for sympathy, attention, revenge etc.

Actually, yes, all of her 'stories' are invented to become the center of attention, or to excuse herself from responsibility...everything from being raped which produced her first 2 pregnancies (she is with the second father now and has since changed her story about how the 2nd child came to be) to the repossession of her car, loss of jobs, all of it. -It is so frustrating, because even things that already draw attention, i.e. her broken arm from rollerblading, have to be made even more amazing (she said she was stabbed and it broke her arm ). Ah well...

Friends often joke with me about her many personalities. It's a sad thing, but all of our mutual friends know that something is way out of kilter in her head. The jokes aren't meant to be cruel, my buddies are just trying to get me to smile while I'm gritting my teeth at the latest 'story' that has been made up to draw attention -as you can imagine, I am damage control in the family. I'm the one that has to cover up her BS stories or explain them or whatever to friends, other family, business partners...it sucks.

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The thing is, even when you have a "diagnosis" for them, the behavior is still there. Depending on what professional you see, they could have different assessments and diagnoses! So, focus on the behaviors, not the diagnosis.

I totally hear ya on this. I really appreciate everyone giving me some ideas, though...it will help with my research to try to find better treatments/avenues to deal with the situation.

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Don't let them manipulate or run the family (many get the power this way).

That's the elder one. Yes, she has done the most incredible things that have everyone on the outside looking in just shaking their heads. I'm talking rearranging my kitchen, refolding my husband's underwear, taking armloads of clothes out of our house and giving them to her daughter (aka the 'red' woman above), remaking all of our beds the way she likes them...it just didn't stop. I finally had to tell her not to come back into my house while I'm gone. This was happening daily.

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Most important, if they do not see a problem, then they are likely to not seek help. Forced help is often ineffective, as they have to have some sort of investment in treatment. And this includes pharmacological treatments, as they may refuse medication. Most people who have no insight into their "mental illness", only seek help on their own if they are about to lose something (job, spouse, family), and oftencome in complaining of what other people are doing to them. I am not trying to say they are hopeless, but you will drive yourself crazy trying to figure them out and trying to fix the problem. I know this from professional AND personal experience!

Amen. Every now and then I just need some healthy-minded people to let me know that this behavior is not typical of a sane person and that I am not losing my own mind...how does that saying go? When you're among crazy people, normal is insane? Something like that. I find I'm either bitterly angry at them for creating these repetitive messes that I have to clean up-->'Oh my gosh!! I just heard that 'XXXX was stabbed/raped/a victim of attempted murder! Is she ok?' all the way to multiple ex-boyfriend/divorces/child custody stuff. -Lies to my kids, etc... after so much of it ALL THE DAMN TIME I find that I'm starting to question my own sanity -"It couldn't really be this bad. Maybe I'm being too judgmental, maybe I am being cruel, maybe I am being a bitch. Maybe other people weren't hearing what she said right."

Now and then I need to hear that I'm not being paranoid myself for not allowing this behavior around my babies, ya know?

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.