teason 0 #1 December 10, 2006 Am I posting this a little too soon?I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #2 December 10, 2006 Are those extra rings for a tertiary reserve?"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packing_jarrett 0 #3 December 10, 2006 little soon... I don't like the look of a 2k3. Regular NOS looks much better IMONa' Cho' Cheese Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beatnik 2 #4 December 10, 2006 Those extra rings are most likely for a tertiary main. He really liked the setup that my friend came up with for jumping some vintage canopies and doing intentional cutaways. He said that he wanted to copy the design of it at least. It is actually a interesting system where the container for the third parachute is the deployment bag as well and the whole system is released from the pilot chute via a four point cable release. Also, you end up deploying on your back and watching the entire opening sequence. I think I have some pictures and diagrams of the original system somewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #5 December 10, 2006 Yeah, it'll be a tertiary rig that can also be jumped as a regular rig. I have a few things to work out on the H/C first though. The handles will have to be able to switch from an inboard to an outward pull without any repacking. Think I've got it solved, still scratching my head a little though. After that It's a neat deployment idea that a rigger named Curtis Sobering came up with. The set up should allow me to jump any size main without being limited to container size. Stay tunedI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #6 December 10, 2006 The handles will have to be able to switch from an inboard to an outward pull without any repacking. Think I've got it solved, still scratching my head a little though. Quote I saw a neat system a couple days ago... The handles didn't need to be movable, the 'main' front container had butterfly snaps on the risers that attached to the harness, and three ring ends on the other side. It rode down low enough to clear the inboards on the HC, with Velcro straps that tie into the side harness rings for hold down. Looked pretty slick. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beatnik 2 #7 December 10, 2006 If the system is going to use the same deployment method that is on Curtis' system and not the newer one that we came up with, I don't see any reason that you would need to be able to switch the handles from inward to outward pull. The whole system releases from a single point on the front and you are still able to grab each handle. With the new improvements to the old system we were going to put a single handle to release the bag and risers but could never come up with a reason why it would be needed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gene03 0 #8 December 10, 2006 Uhmmmm. I would recommend some leg strap hardware and a few more passes though a sewing machine.“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him. Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #9 December 10, 2006 I haven't seen the system you're talking about....(I don't think) but I saw a system you seem to be describing, a couple days ago. Is there a 3 ring release inside the container on the other side of the 'short risers' ? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beatnik 2 #10 December 10, 2006 The original system has two sets of rings on the MLW. The risers themselves had individual cutaways, but that has since been changed. The entire front mount container/d-bag releases from the front you you and there is nothing there after the canopy has been deployed. It is not like a traditional belly mount where it would still be an empty container after the parachute has been deployed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #11 December 10, 2006 It is not like a traditional belly mount where it would still be an empty container after the parachute has been deployed. Quote Okay, that's not like what I saw... Where is the container after deployment? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beatnik 2 #12 December 10, 2006 QuoteWhere is the container after deployment? The container is attached to the bridle as it is also the dbag for the canopy, so it just is like any other parachute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites teason 0 #13 December 10, 2006 I thought about putting the first deployment low so as not to interfer with the handles but that would mean putting it extremely low as the gear has a long mud flap to accomodate the lower ring confluence. Other systems place a second ring below the first three ring confluence. This rig will be used for filming malfunction sequences so I wanted it to have it's own confluence. I'll put the deployment bag high so that there is max fomfort and manuvoerability for the jumper. It will also have very little exposed riser. The belly risers are going to be regular risers. The main ring will be attached to a B-12 snap and the webbing between the two will have the riser release. I had origionally thought of a single point cutaway out board on the right mud flap but that would mean hooking up the three rig after getting the gear on and I wanted a "snap on and go" type of system. Also, that's alot of housings moving through the yoke and would be uncomfortable (in hindsight, I should have made it wide over the shoulders).I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #14 December 10, 2006 QuoteI thought about putting the first deployment low so as not to interfer with the handles but that would mean putting it extremely low as the gear has a long mud flap to accomodate the lower ring confluence. Other systems place a second ring below the first three ring confluence. This rig will be used for filming malfunction sequences so I wanted it to have it's own confluence. I'll put the deployment bag high so that there is max fomfort and manuvoerability for the jumper. It will also have very little exposed riser. The belly risers are going to be regular risers. The main ring will be attached to a B-12 snap and the webbing between the two will have the riser release. I had origionally thought of a single point cutaway out board on the right mud flap but that would mean hooking up the three rig after getting the gear on and I wanted a "snap on and go" type of system. Also, that's alot of housings moving through the yoke and would be uncomfortable (in hindsight, I should have made it wide over the shoulders). Quote I'd love to se a pic when it done! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beatnik 2 #15 December 10, 2006 If the system is going to have individual riser releases like the original system, they don't work the best for the system. It makes it clean and easier to setup but complicates the system when whether you snap it on or set it up while on, there is still the same amount of prep work required for it. So from my perspective it doesn't speed up any process. This is just my $0.02. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 262 #16 December 10, 2006 Cool project, teason! Just last weekend I built myself a '3rd canopy' rig too. I went with the method of hacking apart an old rig to create a harness worn under one's normal rig, and then building a belly container. Such experimental projects make for a lot of different design tradeoffs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites xlh883 0 #17 December 11, 2006 Sooooo, what's a tertiary reserve anyway for those of us not in the know? David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beatnik 2 #18 December 11, 2006 A tertiary reserve is simply just another reserve parachute that you would wear on the front of your harness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #19 December 11, 2006 QuoteSooooo, what's a tertiary reserve anyway for those of us not in the know? David Read this then this ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeffrey 0 #20 December 11, 2006 ***Sooooo, what's a tertiary reserve anyway for those of us not in the know? David Quote ter·ti·ar·y ter·ti·ar·y (tûr?she-er´e) adjective 1. Third in place, order, degree, or rank. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fcajump 153 #21 December 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhere is the container after deployment? The container is attached to the bridle as it is also the dbag for the canopy, so it just is like any other parachute. I've always wanted to move to such a system, but never worked out some of the details. Would love to see pics if you have them... I went with low 'D's to hold the "chest" container with higher RW-12(?removables?) and mini riser covers going up the MLW. Inboard handles are fine, and use dual out-board handles to cut-away the chest canopy. This way I can use any canopy on standard risers and with most standard D bags... just have to change the pilot chute as the container I currently use is a 2 pin throw-out. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites teason 0 #22 December 15, 2006 Got a little busy but the container is nearly ready for first inspection, although I may redo the harness this weekend if I have time (I made the harness more for me but now others will probably jump it so it can't be quite so custom) The deployment bag will be done after the container so that I can try a couple of variations. TimI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fcajump 153 #23 December 15, 2006 QuoteGot a little busy but the container is nearly ready for first inspection, although I may redo the harness this weekend if I have time (I made the harness more for me but now others will probably jump it so it can't be quite so custom) The deployment bag will be done after the container so that I can try a couple of variations. Tim Is there a quick cheat-sheet for us non-Canadians that are curious as to the testing / certification standards for rigs made in the great white north? JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites teason 0 #24 December 16, 2006 PM'dI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 262 #25 December 16, 2006 QuoteIs there a quick cheat-sheet for us non-Canadians that are curious as to the testing / certification standards for rigs made in the great white north? Hi Jim / fcajumps, a) No cheat sheet, so you're stuck with my long answer. (Any input from Teason is welcome too.) b) Regs for rigs? Basically none! Over the years there have been various small (compared to the US) rig & canopy manufacturers in Canada. Only a couple have gone through the process to get rigs TSO'd, either to be able to sell to the US or demonstrate that they make a quality product. I don't know the details but Transport Canada (TC) must run the inspections to the US TSO rules, and the US accepts TC's approval. Still it is nice to know that the majority of gear on the market is TSO'd, even if one can be cynical about parts of the TSO system. (e.g., a nice freefly Mirage that still has the big Low Speed TSO placard, or that Vector III that's just a Wonderhog with a few minor changes, in the eyes of the FAA). Gear rules (like jumping with a reserve, and having it packed within 180 days) come from the CSPA, not TC. Nothing defines exactly what a "reserve parachute" is -- it's just a matter of community standards, as to what a rigger would accept to pack or not pack. TC has a very short list of rules concerning skydiving, unlike the FAA in the US. At a DZ one is likely jumping under CSPA rules (with a few from TC since the DZ is probably operating with a Special Flight Operations Certificate to allow jumping in that airspace). But away from the DZ, as long as one obeyed TC rules on airspace, ATC contact, landowner permission etc, one could exit with a BASE rig & pull low. I'm willing to be corrected, but I've dug through all the regs I could find! One exception is for any 'real demo jumps' which are over crowds or built-up areas. There the TC rules stipulate a main & reserve (both ram air), and TSO'd gear. I'm not absolutely sure the TSO requirement doesn't get broken occasionally, if someone happens to own Canadian gear. Although all this doesn't matter to 99% of jumpers, it does allow for easier experimentation with gear. If someone wants to do an intentional cutaway in Canada, the way I've seen it done at a couple DZ's is pretty simple. An old belly mount reserve is hooked to one's main lift webs with separable rings and a couple tie down straps. Crude but accepted. One really nice thing about Canadian equipment rules - despite their apparent laxness - is that riggers here can judge things more on their merits, than the letter of the law. A Canadian rigger can look at a piece of equipment and say "that looks a bit weird, but based on my experience, it looks safe and I'm familiar enough with that kind of thing, so I'll pack it". If I may joke for a moment about the conditions US riggers work under, the US rigger seems to spend only half his time on actual rigging. The other half is spent trying to interpret the FAA rules: "OK, let's say I'm given a rig which is owned by someone living in the US, but he's a foreigner, and a diplomat, and the rig is half US TSO'd, half foreign built with no TSO, but the TSO parts were extensively modified without the manufacturer's approval, and weren't done by a rigger, but were done at the factory of another US manufacturer. Who determines 'suitability of components'? Am I legally allowed to pack it or not???" Those sorts of discussions seem to come up a lot, and even Billbooth has mentioned that there are grey areas. In the end, what all this means for this thread, is that Teason, as a rigger, can sew away to his heart's content on his rig. (I don't know his ratings, but technically the CSPA requires a Rigger B rating, not just the Rigger A, to do machine sewing.) (Teason: I'll leave aside any CAPS vs. CSPA issues that you'd be better able to comment on.) 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Beatnik 2 #7 December 10, 2006 If the system is going to use the same deployment method that is on Curtis' system and not the newer one that we came up with, I don't see any reason that you would need to be able to switch the handles from inward to outward pull. The whole system releases from a single point on the front and you are still able to grab each handle. With the new improvements to the old system we were going to put a single handle to release the bag and risers but could never come up with a reason why it would be needed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gene03 0 #8 December 10, 2006 Uhmmmm. I would recommend some leg strap hardware and a few more passes though a sewing machine.“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him. Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #9 December 10, 2006 I haven't seen the system you're talking about....(I don't think) but I saw a system you seem to be describing, a couple days ago. Is there a 3 ring release inside the container on the other side of the 'short risers' ? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beatnik 2 #10 December 10, 2006 The original system has two sets of rings on the MLW. The risers themselves had individual cutaways, but that has since been changed. The entire front mount container/d-bag releases from the front you you and there is nothing there after the canopy has been deployed. It is not like a traditional belly mount where it would still be an empty container after the parachute has been deployed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #11 December 10, 2006 It is not like a traditional belly mount where it would still be an empty container after the parachute has been deployed. Quote Okay, that's not like what I saw... Where is the container after deployment? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beatnik 2 #12 December 10, 2006 QuoteWhere is the container after deployment? The container is attached to the bridle as it is also the dbag for the canopy, so it just is like any other parachute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites teason 0 #13 December 10, 2006 I thought about putting the first deployment low so as not to interfer with the handles but that would mean putting it extremely low as the gear has a long mud flap to accomodate the lower ring confluence. Other systems place a second ring below the first three ring confluence. This rig will be used for filming malfunction sequences so I wanted it to have it's own confluence. I'll put the deployment bag high so that there is max fomfort and manuvoerability for the jumper. It will also have very little exposed riser. The belly risers are going to be regular risers. The main ring will be attached to a B-12 snap and the webbing between the two will have the riser release. I had origionally thought of a single point cutaway out board on the right mud flap but that would mean hooking up the three rig after getting the gear on and I wanted a "snap on and go" type of system. Also, that's alot of housings moving through the yoke and would be uncomfortable (in hindsight, I should have made it wide over the shoulders).I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #14 December 10, 2006 QuoteI thought about putting the first deployment low so as not to interfer with the handles but that would mean putting it extremely low as the gear has a long mud flap to accomodate the lower ring confluence. Other systems place a second ring below the first three ring confluence. This rig will be used for filming malfunction sequences so I wanted it to have it's own confluence. I'll put the deployment bag high so that there is max fomfort and manuvoerability for the jumper. It will also have very little exposed riser. The belly risers are going to be regular risers. The main ring will be attached to a B-12 snap and the webbing between the two will have the riser release. I had origionally thought of a single point cutaway out board on the right mud flap but that would mean hooking up the three rig after getting the gear on and I wanted a "snap on and go" type of system. Also, that's alot of housings moving through the yoke and would be uncomfortable (in hindsight, I should have made it wide over the shoulders). Quote I'd love to se a pic when it done! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beatnik 2 #15 December 10, 2006 If the system is going to have individual riser releases like the original system, they don't work the best for the system. It makes it clean and easier to setup but complicates the system when whether you snap it on or set it up while on, there is still the same amount of prep work required for it. So from my perspective it doesn't speed up any process. This is just my $0.02. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 262 #16 December 10, 2006 Cool project, teason! Just last weekend I built myself a '3rd canopy' rig too. I went with the method of hacking apart an old rig to create a harness worn under one's normal rig, and then building a belly container. Such experimental projects make for a lot of different design tradeoffs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites xlh883 0 #17 December 11, 2006 Sooooo, what's a tertiary reserve anyway for those of us not in the know? David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beatnik 2 #18 December 11, 2006 A tertiary reserve is simply just another reserve parachute that you would wear on the front of your harness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #19 December 11, 2006 QuoteSooooo, what's a tertiary reserve anyway for those of us not in the know? David Read this then this ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeffrey 0 #20 December 11, 2006 ***Sooooo, what's a tertiary reserve anyway for those of us not in the know? David Quote ter·ti·ar·y ter·ti·ar·y (tûr?she-er´e) adjective 1. Third in place, order, degree, or rank. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fcajump 153 #21 December 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhere is the container after deployment? The container is attached to the bridle as it is also the dbag for the canopy, so it just is like any other parachute. I've always wanted to move to such a system, but never worked out some of the details. Would love to see pics if you have them... I went with low 'D's to hold the "chest" container with higher RW-12(?removables?) and mini riser covers going up the MLW. Inboard handles are fine, and use dual out-board handles to cut-away the chest canopy. This way I can use any canopy on standard risers and with most standard D bags... just have to change the pilot chute as the container I currently use is a 2 pin throw-out. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites teason 0 #22 December 15, 2006 Got a little busy but the container is nearly ready for first inspection, although I may redo the harness this weekend if I have time (I made the harness more for me but now others will probably jump it so it can't be quite so custom) The deployment bag will be done after the container so that I can try a couple of variations. TimI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fcajump 153 #23 December 15, 2006 QuoteGot a little busy but the container is nearly ready for first inspection, although I may redo the harness this weekend if I have time (I made the harness more for me but now others will probably jump it so it can't be quite so custom) The deployment bag will be done after the container so that I can try a couple of variations. Tim Is there a quick cheat-sheet for us non-Canadians that are curious as to the testing / certification standards for rigs made in the great white north? JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites teason 0 #24 December 16, 2006 PM'dI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 262 #25 December 16, 2006 QuoteIs there a quick cheat-sheet for us non-Canadians that are curious as to the testing / certification standards for rigs made in the great white north? Hi Jim / fcajumps, a) No cheat sheet, so you're stuck with my long answer. (Any input from Teason is welcome too.) b) Regs for rigs? Basically none! Over the years there have been various small (compared to the US) rig & canopy manufacturers in Canada. Only a couple have gone through the process to get rigs TSO'd, either to be able to sell to the US or demonstrate that they make a quality product. I don't know the details but Transport Canada (TC) must run the inspections to the US TSO rules, and the US accepts TC's approval. Still it is nice to know that the majority of gear on the market is TSO'd, even if one can be cynical about parts of the TSO system. (e.g., a nice freefly Mirage that still has the big Low Speed TSO placard, or that Vector III that's just a Wonderhog with a few minor changes, in the eyes of the FAA). Gear rules (like jumping with a reserve, and having it packed within 180 days) come from the CSPA, not TC. Nothing defines exactly what a "reserve parachute" is -- it's just a matter of community standards, as to what a rigger would accept to pack or not pack. TC has a very short list of rules concerning skydiving, unlike the FAA in the US. At a DZ one is likely jumping under CSPA rules (with a few from TC since the DZ is probably operating with a Special Flight Operations Certificate to allow jumping in that airspace). But away from the DZ, as long as one obeyed TC rules on airspace, ATC contact, landowner permission etc, one could exit with a BASE rig & pull low. I'm willing to be corrected, but I've dug through all the regs I could find! One exception is for any 'real demo jumps' which are over crowds or built-up areas. There the TC rules stipulate a main & reserve (both ram air), and TSO'd gear. I'm not absolutely sure the TSO requirement doesn't get broken occasionally, if someone happens to own Canadian gear. Although all this doesn't matter to 99% of jumpers, it does allow for easier experimentation with gear. If someone wants to do an intentional cutaway in Canada, the way I've seen it done at a couple DZ's is pretty simple. An old belly mount reserve is hooked to one's main lift webs with separable rings and a couple tie down straps. Crude but accepted. One really nice thing about Canadian equipment rules - despite their apparent laxness - is that riggers here can judge things more on their merits, than the letter of the law. A Canadian rigger can look at a piece of equipment and say "that looks a bit weird, but based on my experience, it looks safe and I'm familiar enough with that kind of thing, so I'll pack it". If I may joke for a moment about the conditions US riggers work under, the US rigger seems to spend only half his time on actual rigging. The other half is spent trying to interpret the FAA rules: "OK, let's say I'm given a rig which is owned by someone living in the US, but he's a foreigner, and a diplomat, and the rig is half US TSO'd, half foreign built with no TSO, but the TSO parts were extensively modified without the manufacturer's approval, and weren't done by a rigger, but were done at the factory of another US manufacturer. Who determines 'suitability of components'? Am I legally allowed to pack it or not???" Those sorts of discussions seem to come up a lot, and even Billbooth has mentioned that there are grey areas. In the end, what all this means for this thread, is that Teason, as a rigger, can sew away to his heart's content on his rig. (I don't know his ratings, but technically the CSPA requires a Rigger B rating, not just the Rigger A, to do machine sewing.) (Teason: I'll leave aside any CAPS vs. CSPA issues that you'd be better able to comment on.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Beatnik 2 #12 December 10, 2006 QuoteWhere is the container after deployment? The container is attached to the bridle as it is also the dbag for the canopy, so it just is like any other parachute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #13 December 10, 2006 I thought about putting the first deployment low so as not to interfer with the handles but that would mean putting it extremely low as the gear has a long mud flap to accomodate the lower ring confluence. Other systems place a second ring below the first three ring confluence. This rig will be used for filming malfunction sequences so I wanted it to have it's own confluence. I'll put the deployment bag high so that there is max fomfort and manuvoerability for the jumper. It will also have very little exposed riser. The belly risers are going to be regular risers. The main ring will be attached to a B-12 snap and the webbing between the two will have the riser release. I had origionally thought of a single point cutaway out board on the right mud flap but that would mean hooking up the three rig after getting the gear on and I wanted a "snap on and go" type of system. Also, that's alot of housings moving through the yoke and would be uncomfortable (in hindsight, I should have made it wide over the shoulders).I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #14 December 10, 2006 QuoteI thought about putting the first deployment low so as not to interfer with the handles but that would mean putting it extremely low as the gear has a long mud flap to accomodate the lower ring confluence. Other systems place a second ring below the first three ring confluence. This rig will be used for filming malfunction sequences so I wanted it to have it's own confluence. I'll put the deployment bag high so that there is max fomfort and manuvoerability for the jumper. It will also have very little exposed riser. The belly risers are going to be regular risers. The main ring will be attached to a B-12 snap and the webbing between the two will have the riser release. I had origionally thought of a single point cutaway out board on the right mud flap but that would mean hooking up the three rig after getting the gear on and I wanted a "snap on and go" type of system. Also, that's alot of housings moving through the yoke and would be uncomfortable (in hindsight, I should have made it wide over the shoulders). Quote I'd love to se a pic when it done! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beatnik 2 #15 December 10, 2006 If the system is going to have individual riser releases like the original system, they don't work the best for the system. It makes it clean and easier to setup but complicates the system when whether you snap it on or set it up while on, there is still the same amount of prep work required for it. So from my perspective it doesn't speed up any process. This is just my $0.02. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 262 #16 December 10, 2006 Cool project, teason! Just last weekend I built myself a '3rd canopy' rig too. I went with the method of hacking apart an old rig to create a harness worn under one's normal rig, and then building a belly container. Such experimental projects make for a lot of different design tradeoffs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites xlh883 0 #17 December 11, 2006 Sooooo, what's a tertiary reserve anyway for those of us not in the know? David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Beatnik 2 #18 December 11, 2006 A tertiary reserve is simply just another reserve parachute that you would wear on the front of your harness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #19 December 11, 2006 QuoteSooooo, what's a tertiary reserve anyway for those of us not in the know? David Read this then this ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeffrey 0 #20 December 11, 2006 ***Sooooo, what's a tertiary reserve anyway for those of us not in the know? David Quote ter·ti·ar·y ter·ti·ar·y (tûr?she-er´e) adjective 1. Third in place, order, degree, or rank. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fcajump 153 #21 December 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhere is the container after deployment? The container is attached to the bridle as it is also the dbag for the canopy, so it just is like any other parachute. I've always wanted to move to such a system, but never worked out some of the details. Would love to see pics if you have them... I went with low 'D's to hold the "chest" container with higher RW-12(?removables?) and mini riser covers going up the MLW. Inboard handles are fine, and use dual out-board handles to cut-away the chest canopy. This way I can use any canopy on standard risers and with most standard D bags... just have to change the pilot chute as the container I currently use is a 2 pin throw-out. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites teason 0 #22 December 15, 2006 Got a little busy but the container is nearly ready for first inspection, although I may redo the harness this weekend if I have time (I made the harness more for me but now others will probably jump it so it can't be quite so custom) The deployment bag will be done after the container so that I can try a couple of variations. TimI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fcajump 153 #23 December 15, 2006 QuoteGot a little busy but the container is nearly ready for first inspection, although I may redo the harness this weekend if I have time (I made the harness more for me but now others will probably jump it so it can't be quite so custom) The deployment bag will be done after the container so that I can try a couple of variations. Tim Is there a quick cheat-sheet for us non-Canadians that are curious as to the testing / certification standards for rigs made in the great white north? JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites teason 0 #24 December 16, 2006 PM'dI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 262 #25 December 16, 2006 QuoteIs there a quick cheat-sheet for us non-Canadians that are curious as to the testing / certification standards for rigs made in the great white north? Hi Jim / fcajumps, a) No cheat sheet, so you're stuck with my long answer. (Any input from Teason is welcome too.) b) Regs for rigs? Basically none! Over the years there have been various small (compared to the US) rig & canopy manufacturers in Canada. Only a couple have gone through the process to get rigs TSO'd, either to be able to sell to the US or demonstrate that they make a quality product. I don't know the details but Transport Canada (TC) must run the inspections to the US TSO rules, and the US accepts TC's approval. Still it is nice to know that the majority of gear on the market is TSO'd, even if one can be cynical about parts of the TSO system. (e.g., a nice freefly Mirage that still has the big Low Speed TSO placard, or that Vector III that's just a Wonderhog with a few minor changes, in the eyes of the FAA). Gear rules (like jumping with a reserve, and having it packed within 180 days) come from the CSPA, not TC. Nothing defines exactly what a "reserve parachute" is -- it's just a matter of community standards, as to what a rigger would accept to pack or not pack. TC has a very short list of rules concerning skydiving, unlike the FAA in the US. At a DZ one is likely jumping under CSPA rules (with a few from TC since the DZ is probably operating with a Special Flight Operations Certificate to allow jumping in that airspace). But away from the DZ, as long as one obeyed TC rules on airspace, ATC contact, landowner permission etc, one could exit with a BASE rig & pull low. I'm willing to be corrected, but I've dug through all the regs I could find! One exception is for any 'real demo jumps' which are over crowds or built-up areas. There the TC rules stipulate a main & reserve (both ram air), and TSO'd gear. I'm not absolutely sure the TSO requirement doesn't get broken occasionally, if someone happens to own Canadian gear. Although all this doesn't matter to 99% of jumpers, it does allow for easier experimentation with gear. If someone wants to do an intentional cutaway in Canada, the way I've seen it done at a couple DZ's is pretty simple. An old belly mount reserve is hooked to one's main lift webs with separable rings and a couple tie down straps. Crude but accepted. One really nice thing about Canadian equipment rules - despite their apparent laxness - is that riggers here can judge things more on their merits, than the letter of the law. A Canadian rigger can look at a piece of equipment and say "that looks a bit weird, but based on my experience, it looks safe and I'm familiar enough with that kind of thing, so I'll pack it". If I may joke for a moment about the conditions US riggers work under, the US rigger seems to spend only half his time on actual rigging. The other half is spent trying to interpret the FAA rules: "OK, let's say I'm given a rig which is owned by someone living in the US, but he's a foreigner, and a diplomat, and the rig is half US TSO'd, half foreign built with no TSO, but the TSO parts were extensively modified without the manufacturer's approval, and weren't done by a rigger, but were done at the factory of another US manufacturer. Who determines 'suitability of components'? Am I legally allowed to pack it or not???" Those sorts of discussions seem to come up a lot, and even Billbooth has mentioned that there are grey areas. In the end, what all this means for this thread, is that Teason, as a rigger, can sew away to his heart's content on his rig. (I don't know his ratings, but technically the CSPA requires a Rigger B rating, not just the Rigger A, to do machine sewing.) (Teason: I'll leave aside any CAPS vs. CSPA issues that you'd be better able to comment on.) 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Beatnik 2 #15 December 10, 2006 If the system is going to have individual riser releases like the original system, they don't work the best for the system. It makes it clean and easier to setup but complicates the system when whether you snap it on or set it up while on, there is still the same amount of prep work required for it. So from my perspective it doesn't speed up any process. This is just my $0.02. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 262 #16 December 10, 2006 Cool project, teason! Just last weekend I built myself a '3rd canopy' rig too. I went with the method of hacking apart an old rig to create a harness worn under one's normal rig, and then building a belly container. Such experimental projects make for a lot of different design tradeoffs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xlh883 0 #17 December 11, 2006 Sooooo, what's a tertiary reserve anyway for those of us not in the know? David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beatnik 2 #18 December 11, 2006 A tertiary reserve is simply just another reserve parachute that you would wear on the front of your harness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #19 December 11, 2006 QuoteSooooo, what's a tertiary reserve anyway for those of us not in the know? David Read this then this ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeffrey 0 #20 December 11, 2006 ***Sooooo, what's a tertiary reserve anyway for those of us not in the know? David Quote ter·ti·ar·y ter·ti·ar·y (tûr?she-er´e) adjective 1. Third in place, order, degree, or rank. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fcajump 153 #21 December 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhere is the container after deployment? The container is attached to the bridle as it is also the dbag for the canopy, so it just is like any other parachute. I've always wanted to move to such a system, but never worked out some of the details. Would love to see pics if you have them... I went with low 'D's to hold the "chest" container with higher RW-12(?removables?) and mini riser covers going up the MLW. Inboard handles are fine, and use dual out-board handles to cut-away the chest canopy. This way I can use any canopy on standard risers and with most standard D bags... just have to change the pilot chute as the container I currently use is a 2 pin throw-out. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites teason 0 #22 December 15, 2006 Got a little busy but the container is nearly ready for first inspection, although I may redo the harness this weekend if I have time (I made the harness more for me but now others will probably jump it so it can't be quite so custom) The deployment bag will be done after the container so that I can try a couple of variations. TimI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fcajump 153 #23 December 15, 2006 QuoteGot a little busy but the container is nearly ready for first inspection, although I may redo the harness this weekend if I have time (I made the harness more for me but now others will probably jump it so it can't be quite so custom) The deployment bag will be done after the container so that I can try a couple of variations. Tim Is there a quick cheat-sheet for us non-Canadians that are curious as to the testing / certification standards for rigs made in the great white north? JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites teason 0 #24 December 16, 2006 PM'dI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 262 #25 December 16, 2006 QuoteIs there a quick cheat-sheet for us non-Canadians that are curious as to the testing / certification standards for rigs made in the great white north? Hi Jim / fcajumps, a) No cheat sheet, so you're stuck with my long answer. (Any input from Teason is welcome too.) b) Regs for rigs? Basically none! Over the years there have been various small (compared to the US) rig & canopy manufacturers in Canada. Only a couple have gone through the process to get rigs TSO'd, either to be able to sell to the US or demonstrate that they make a quality product. I don't know the details but Transport Canada (TC) must run the inspections to the US TSO rules, and the US accepts TC's approval. Still it is nice to know that the majority of gear on the market is TSO'd, even if one can be cynical about parts of the TSO system. (e.g., a nice freefly Mirage that still has the big Low Speed TSO placard, or that Vector III that's just a Wonderhog with a few minor changes, in the eyes of the FAA). Gear rules (like jumping with a reserve, and having it packed within 180 days) come from the CSPA, not TC. Nothing defines exactly what a "reserve parachute" is -- it's just a matter of community standards, as to what a rigger would accept to pack or not pack. TC has a very short list of rules concerning skydiving, unlike the FAA in the US. At a DZ one is likely jumping under CSPA rules (with a few from TC since the DZ is probably operating with a Special Flight Operations Certificate to allow jumping in that airspace). But away from the DZ, as long as one obeyed TC rules on airspace, ATC contact, landowner permission etc, one could exit with a BASE rig & pull low. I'm willing to be corrected, but I've dug through all the regs I could find! One exception is for any 'real demo jumps' which are over crowds or built-up areas. There the TC rules stipulate a main & reserve (both ram air), and TSO'd gear. I'm not absolutely sure the TSO requirement doesn't get broken occasionally, if someone happens to own Canadian gear. Although all this doesn't matter to 99% of jumpers, it does allow for easier experimentation with gear. If someone wants to do an intentional cutaway in Canada, the way I've seen it done at a couple DZ's is pretty simple. An old belly mount reserve is hooked to one's main lift webs with separable rings and a couple tie down straps. Crude but accepted. One really nice thing about Canadian equipment rules - despite their apparent laxness - is that riggers here can judge things more on their merits, than the letter of the law. A Canadian rigger can look at a piece of equipment and say "that looks a bit weird, but based on my experience, it looks safe and I'm familiar enough with that kind of thing, so I'll pack it". If I may joke for a moment about the conditions US riggers work under, the US rigger seems to spend only half his time on actual rigging. The other half is spent trying to interpret the FAA rules: "OK, let's say I'm given a rig which is owned by someone living in the US, but he's a foreigner, and a diplomat, and the rig is half US TSO'd, half foreign built with no TSO, but the TSO parts were extensively modified without the manufacturer's approval, and weren't done by a rigger, but were done at the factory of another US manufacturer. Who determines 'suitability of components'? Am I legally allowed to pack it or not???" Those sorts of discussions seem to come up a lot, and even Billbooth has mentioned that there are grey areas. In the end, what all this means for this thread, is that Teason, as a rigger, can sew away to his heart's content on his rig. (I don't know his ratings, but technically the CSPA requires a Rigger B rating, not just the Rigger A, to do machine sewing.) (Teason: I'll leave aside any CAPS vs. CSPA issues that you'd be better able to comment on.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
fcajump 153 #21 December 15, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhere is the container after deployment? The container is attached to the bridle as it is also the dbag for the canopy, so it just is like any other parachute. I've always wanted to move to such a system, but never worked out some of the details. Would love to see pics if you have them... I went with low 'D's to hold the "chest" container with higher RW-12(?removables?) and mini riser covers going up the MLW. Inboard handles are fine, and use dual out-board handles to cut-away the chest canopy. This way I can use any canopy on standard risers and with most standard D bags... just have to change the pilot chute as the container I currently use is a 2 pin throw-out. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #22 December 15, 2006 Got a little busy but the container is nearly ready for first inspection, although I may redo the harness this weekend if I have time (I made the harness more for me but now others will probably jump it so it can't be quite so custom) The deployment bag will be done after the container so that I can try a couple of variations. TimI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #23 December 15, 2006 QuoteGot a little busy but the container is nearly ready for first inspection, although I may redo the harness this weekend if I have time (I made the harness more for me but now others will probably jump it so it can't be quite so custom) The deployment bag will be done after the container so that I can try a couple of variations. Tim Is there a quick cheat-sheet for us non-Canadians that are curious as to the testing / certification standards for rigs made in the great white north? JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #24 December 16, 2006 PM'dI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 262 #25 December 16, 2006 QuoteIs there a quick cheat-sheet for us non-Canadians that are curious as to the testing / certification standards for rigs made in the great white north? Hi Jim / fcajumps, a) No cheat sheet, so you're stuck with my long answer. (Any input from Teason is welcome too.) b) Regs for rigs? Basically none! Over the years there have been various small (compared to the US) rig & canopy manufacturers in Canada. Only a couple have gone through the process to get rigs TSO'd, either to be able to sell to the US or demonstrate that they make a quality product. I don't know the details but Transport Canada (TC) must run the inspections to the US TSO rules, and the US accepts TC's approval. Still it is nice to know that the majority of gear on the market is TSO'd, even if one can be cynical about parts of the TSO system. (e.g., a nice freefly Mirage that still has the big Low Speed TSO placard, or that Vector III that's just a Wonderhog with a few minor changes, in the eyes of the FAA). Gear rules (like jumping with a reserve, and having it packed within 180 days) come from the CSPA, not TC. Nothing defines exactly what a "reserve parachute" is -- it's just a matter of community standards, as to what a rigger would accept to pack or not pack. TC has a very short list of rules concerning skydiving, unlike the FAA in the US. At a DZ one is likely jumping under CSPA rules (with a few from TC since the DZ is probably operating with a Special Flight Operations Certificate to allow jumping in that airspace). But away from the DZ, as long as one obeyed TC rules on airspace, ATC contact, landowner permission etc, one could exit with a BASE rig & pull low. I'm willing to be corrected, but I've dug through all the regs I could find! One exception is for any 'real demo jumps' which are over crowds or built-up areas. There the TC rules stipulate a main & reserve (both ram air), and TSO'd gear. I'm not absolutely sure the TSO requirement doesn't get broken occasionally, if someone happens to own Canadian gear. Although all this doesn't matter to 99% of jumpers, it does allow for easier experimentation with gear. If someone wants to do an intentional cutaway in Canada, the way I've seen it done at a couple DZ's is pretty simple. An old belly mount reserve is hooked to one's main lift webs with separable rings and a couple tie down straps. Crude but accepted. One really nice thing about Canadian equipment rules - despite their apparent laxness - is that riggers here can judge things more on their merits, than the letter of the law. A Canadian rigger can look at a piece of equipment and say "that looks a bit weird, but based on my experience, it looks safe and I'm familiar enough with that kind of thing, so I'll pack it". If I may joke for a moment about the conditions US riggers work under, the US rigger seems to spend only half his time on actual rigging. The other half is spent trying to interpret the FAA rules: "OK, let's say I'm given a rig which is owned by someone living in the US, but he's a foreigner, and a diplomat, and the rig is half US TSO'd, half foreign built with no TSO, but the TSO parts were extensively modified without the manufacturer's approval, and weren't done by a rigger, but were done at the factory of another US manufacturer. Who determines 'suitability of components'? Am I legally allowed to pack it or not???" Those sorts of discussions seem to come up a lot, and even Billbooth has mentioned that there are grey areas. In the end, what all this means for this thread, is that Teason, as a rigger, can sew away to his heart's content on his rig. (I don't know his ratings, but technically the CSPA requires a Rigger B rating, not just the Rigger A, to do machine sewing.) (Teason: I'll leave aside any CAPS vs. CSPA issues that you'd be better able to comment on.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
