please explain x-braced

[wildman2231 0]

Looking at canopies since snow is ready to fly here.
Just exactly what is the difference between conventional and a cross braced canopy? Even manufacturers sites are vague on this. However they are heavily referenced to in the forums. Is a cross braced canopy stronger for doing spirals and not necessarily faster if the same size or wing loading?
I'm sure someone can enlighten me here. Thank you.

I'm fine...crazy people don't know they're crazy...No,Really!

[billvon 2,466]

>Just exactly what is the difference between conventional and a cross braced canopy?

A conventional canopy has (roughly) horizontal top and bottom skins and vertical ribs. Cross-braced canopies usually add some diagonal ribs to reduce deformation of the canopy under load. Less deformation = more efficient airfoil.

>Is a cross braced canopy stronger for doing spirals . . .

No. A skydiving canopy is built strong enough to survive an opening at 120mph; spiralling is not going to cause a structural failure on either kind of canopy.

>and not necessarily faster if the same size or wing loading?

"Faster" is dependent on many things, chief among them trim angle and chord. Whether a canopy is cross-braced or not does not directly affect its speed. People often think they are faster since swoopers often use small, heavily-loaded crossbraced canopies. But those canopies are fast because they are heavily loaded, not just because they're cross-braced.

[wildman2231 0]

Thank you! I see this now,looking at different photo angles. Thanks for the explanation! Quite helpful.

I'm fine...crazy people don't know they're crazy...No,Really!

[Spizzzarko 0]

Cross bracing keeps the canopy flatter and allows a smaller canopy to produce more bottom end lift due to less distortion of the canopy in the flare. So in essence you can have a smaller canopy that will go a lot faster (less drag) and still have the flareing power of a bigger canopy. Cross Braced canopies are pretty much a non advantage unless you are loading them higher. so a cross braced spectre 190 loaded at 1.2:1 would do you no good.

[wildman2231 0]

Thanks,makes sense. I am an avid rc modeller so I understand wing loading,span and chord etc.
However,these are rigid wings compared to canopies,which flex . I love doing high spirals and have jumped a 245 and a 260. I noticed a significant
difference watching the lower skin and end cells flexing doing rear riser spiral. I would think this is affected by loading,span,and chord,and total area.
I wonder,does crossbracing have any effect here or not since spiralling is essentialling stalling half the canopy? Probably won't have any bearing on what I end up buying...but evidently it will not make any difference in the flight parameter of doing spirals either. Tell me what you think....I like the idea of flatter and more lift,that just makes since.(sense)*
Thanks again for the info guys.

I'm fine...crazy people don't know they're crazy...No,Really!

[beezyshaw 0]

First off, I'll bet that with more jumps your infatuation with doing spirals with a canopy tapers off; you'll become addicted to other aspects of your jump. And I'm sure you already know that your first canopy purchase will be a far cry from a cross braced wing, for the simple reason that the largest cross braces are in the 120'ish size range.

[Spizzzarko 0]

CB canopies are pretty much for those into swooping really far and fast. Other than that they are not the best all around canopy's for every day jumping.

Beezy,

I have heard about a CB canopy made a little bigger than 120, and that two people landed under it. Now what's that all about? Did you see in the skydiving mag that NZ made a 280 FX tandem main for testing? I always liked the FX. It was a fun canopy, and it opened pretty good for me.

[Elisha 1]

...it's something neither of us are ready for yet. We can just ooh and ahh it in the meantime.

[wildfan75 1]

Since we're talking about cross braced canopies...I have a question...

It's my understanding that with a cross braced canopy you give up quite a lot, such as soft predictable openings, etc. What you gain is the ability to do a good swoop.

If that's the case, why are there some people that jump a cross braced canopy only to do straight in approaches all the time?

If you're going to do a straight in approach, why not just jump a regular canopy?

(Sorry if the question is lame....I'm a newbie)

[beezyshaw 0]

Yes, I saw the pics. Back when JYRO was first perfecting the fx and Charlie Mullins and me were involved in lots of testing, we talked about that project and we kept trying to convice JYRO to build one for us. Never happened for another 7 years or so, but it did finally happen. I would really like to put some jumps on that canopy, but I seriously doubt that it's the perfect tandem canopy. But who knows, in another few years with some design tweaking and such it just might be we look back thinking "remember when we were afraid to jump tandems with a cross brace?"

[yardhippie 0]

I dont thint that my Velo opens any less predictably than my 120 Nitro did, maybe a little more likely to have a brisk opening, but nothing like my 170 Sabre 1.
In fact, sub-terminal openings are beautifil on my Velo.

"Some people"..."only straight in approaches"
This is something you'd have to ask "those people". There has been plenty of debate over the why jump a x-brace if youre not swooping. Higher cost, less forgiving for mistakes, etc, doesnt really outweight the 'cool' factor. Or maybe, those people really do love those canopies and how they fly, they just dont want to swoop.
IMHO, theyre wasting potential, and $$ there, but its their call, and thats what is importatant in this sport. is doing something you love with your friends, AS LONG AS its safe to you and to others.

Hope that helps.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[billvon 2,466]

>It's my understanding that with a cross braced canopy you give up quite a lot, such as soft predictable openings . . .

Depends on the canopy. I have had only good openings on the Xaos-21's I've jumped. (90 to 105 square feet.)

>If you're going to do a straight in approach, why not just jump a regular canopy?

Same reason people buy a Lamborghini to sit in traffic I suppose. For the cool factor.

[L.O. 0]

I have to stand up for Lynn and say good questions. It is an old subject but she is new and wants to get the new ideas.

I have to say the openning are not that bad. But they do have the potential to get real bad way faster then a appropriately loaded 9-cell. So strike one.

If you use the X-braced canopy for the cool factor, You are stupid. you make that low turn in traffic or need do some other evasive close to the ground, your dead. Thats not cool. Strike two

A good 9-cell will get about as much surf on a straight in, without the plethora of hazards associated with these canopies.

I raced motorcycles when I was younger. Spent years racing, before I could drive a car. After more then a decade of off road racing experience, I graduated to street racing for a short span, . I no longer own a street racer. I couldn't devote the time to be safe.

I tell this story because it applies directly to super fast canopies. I don't think people should own a super fast bike if they can't be 100%, it's just to much for anything less.

This is a dangerous sport, and it is your choice. but unless your on the ball all the time and you make lots of jumps, please reconsider the cross-b canopy.

Just ask yourself, why you want to give up any part of that saftey cushion.

I make 450 jumps a year, I am always on x-braced (except 30+CReW, 30+fury accuracy). Even then the canopy is only just behind me, waiting for the mistake. When I make that mistake I hope I'm on the Fury.

IIIIIII it's all about me. I got way off subject with that one

Wildfan75 just made me think a little. I hope everyone else does to.

HPDBs, I hate those guys.
AFB, charter member.

[Martini 0]

Crossbracing is a program that lets you have a canopy that is smaller than what you had but packs bigger, should be easier to pack because it is smaller but really turns out to be much harder, has simpler construction (if it has non-cascaded lines) but is much more expensive and would have a really high cool factor except that most people don't know what they're looking at and the others don't care. But I like mine a lot anyway.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[AggieDave 6]

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It's my understanding that with a cross braced canopy you give up quite a lot, such as soft predictable openings, etc. What you gain is the ability to do a good swoop.

It all depends.

I had "ok" openings on a VX but I have really nice, soft and predictable openings on my Velo.

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If that's the case, why are there some people that jump a cross braced canopy only to do straight in approaches all the time?

So they can have the cool factor of jumping a X-braced canopy. Think of it like someone that owns and drives a Ferrari that doesn't take it to the track and really ring it out. They're driving the car around town for the "ohhh" factor.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wildman2231 0]

I don't see me on a x-brace anytime soon. But this thread has shed some light on the performance parameters for me. Thanx to all that replied.
I'll stick to the ol' 245 for awhile and cherish those soft slow landings awhile In the meantime, at my lvl I'll stick to workin on consistant accurate landings,and my fall rate. I'm tall and tend to "float".
Just trying to glean all the info I can on all types of canopys before I really set to buy. Thx again

I'm fine...crazy people don't know they're crazy...No,Really!

[wildfan75 1]

Yeah, I get the car references, but if you forget your blinker or forget to put the clutch in on your Ferrari or Lamborgni, you're probably not going to die. Aren't cross braced canopies far less forgiving of errors where the results could be severly injury or death?
And to do it for the cool factor...I don't understand that at all. Are we that stupid of a group?

(Sorry if it sounds like I"m talking out of my ass...because I am, but I'm doing it with good intentions...I want to learn.)

[AggieDave 6]

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Aren't cross braced canopies far less forgiving of errors where the results could be severly injury or death?

Not because they're X-braced, but due to other design factors and wingloading.

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I don't understand that at all. Are we that stupid of a group?

In short, yes. That's why people like to have a super small rig with a much too small reserve. That's why people want to downsize too quickly. That's why people try to get on skydives they have no business being on. You want to be a "cool kid" without putting in the time it takes to get the skill set it takes to jump those kinds of canopies or be on those kinds of skydives. There are plenty of people that have the overall jump numbers, but they have very little canopy skill or ability. However, they jump a canopy that's well over their head due to ego and their jump numbers.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,466]

>Aren't cross braced canopies far less forgiving of errors where the
>results could be severly injury or death?

Well, _smaller_ canopies are unforgiving - and most crossbraced canopies are much smaller. There are other factors (recovery arc, trim, stall point etc) but by far the #1 issue is wingloading.

>And to do it for the cool factor...I don't understand that at all. Are
>we that stupid of a group?

Well, we're certainly that ego-driven. The guy with the smallest canopy and the smallest container is the coolest, most experienced guy. Heck, there's one guy on here who had a 58 square foot canopy that he landed several times without injury, and used that as a way to proclaim his superiority over other people who hadn't been so foolish. So yes, often our ego gets in the way of our intelligence.

[pchapman 262]

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What you gain is the ability to do a good swoop.
If that's the case, why are there some people that jump a cross braced canopy only to do straight in approaches all the time?

Yes, often a cheaper alternative would indeed do just as well! But there can be some valid reasons a person ends up with the crossbraced.

Sometimes the flight characteristics of a crossbraced are preferred. For example, even without a diving approach, the long flare gives one time to adjust the flight path for a soft landing. (I noticed that on my early crossbrace jumps, even if the canopy was relatively much twitchier and demanded a solid initial flare to pull out of its high rate of descent.) And it's just plain fun.

Also, until recently there haven't been a lot of canopies that flew a bit like crossbraces, yet weren't -- like Crossfires or Katanas. This could be especially true in the used market at particular dropzones. So sometimes the choice was between buying a used FX99 vs. a used Stiletto 120, with very different flight characteristics even if both are highly responsive. (I'm picking those sizes for very roughly similar pack volumes.)

I think both arguments apply in the case of a girl at my DZ who flies an FX99. She's 120 lbs, maybe 1200+ jumps, tandem instructor, videographer, etc. She always lands straight in, and has zero interest in swooping. But she absolutely loved the zippy flying and soft landings when she bought a crossbraced canopy, and subsequently downsized to her current one. She's only loading the FX99 at 1.4, but prefers that over the kind of landing she would get with an older canopy (eg, a Stiletto 120) at 1.2.