reserve size and vector 3 chart

[spiccoli 0]

so im on a quest to buy my first rig and have hit a few dillemas that i need some experienced insight on. ive settled on a V3 w/skyhook,that much i know.ive been cruising through the forums, and the trend seems to be to have a reserve bigger or equal to your main, however according to the RW sizing chart, if i were wanting a container made for sabre170,i would have to have a PD160R.is this size differnce not too dramatic? i would load a 170 at 1.17 and 160at 1.25.is this acceptable? i have 30 jumps as of now, jump every weekend weather permitting. if i got a PD176R, i would have to get a container built for a 190, which is what im on right now and by the time my rig gets put together i wont get as much time out of it right? will you survive an unconcious reserve ride at 1.25, is my main question.what are my options? yes,yes, the commonplace response is to ask my instructor,iknow. but since i moved to the UK its just not possible to have a one on one so i would like to get some insight based on some of your experiences. much thanks.

we need to talk about your flare..

[brabzzz 0]

I'd do it.

Statistically, how many reserve rides are made unconscious? 1.25 might not put you down as gently as a 1, but it's still better than the alternative. And if you hit power lines, a house, a truck, a combine harvester, 'out at sea' or a lion enclosure - it makes no difference anyway. Best stay conscious, eh?

IIRC, a PD160 is more like 175 sq.ft. - if that makes it psychologically more comforting.

Still, the only correct response from dz.com would be go and ask a bunch of instructors/jumpers you trust.

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Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club
www.skydivebristoluni.com

[spiccoli 0]

it is more comforting indeed. and yes, personal advice is the best. i just moved here so hopefuly ill make some new knowledgable aqaintances soon.

we need to talk about your flare..

[mjosparky 3]

What’s your rush to go small?

For your weight and experience level PD recommends a Sabre2 210 and 218 reserve. Knock of one size because they are so conservative and you have a Sabre2 190 and 193 reserve.

But hell they are only the manufacture, what do they know. I would go with brabzzz
and he thinks it would be cool.

What's the worst that could happen.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggermick 6]

What's the worst that could happen.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Untimly death? Crippled for life? On a resparator for the next 40 years? Many plates, bolts and pins in his body?

Yeah. Is it hard to accept that today's skydivers does not want to start thier jumping career under WL 1.0, isn't it?

[riggermick 6]

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Untimly death? Crippled for life? On a resparator for the next 40 years? Many plates, bolts and pins in his body?

Yeah. Is it hard to accept that today's skydivers does not want to start thier jumping career under WL 1.0, isn't it?

Not hard to accept at all, it's just plain stupid. If they want to become canopy marters maybe we should let them.

Mick.

[mjosparky 3]

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If they want to become canopy marters maybe we should let them.

Sounds like a good idea, Got my vote. "If you are going to be stupid, you had better be tough."

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[skybytch 259]

You'd be better off getting a used 190 main with a 176 reserve. Spend 100-200 jumps learning all the stuff about canopy flight that you haven't learned yet and dealing with all of the different wind, weather and traffic conditions that you haven't dealt with yet. Then sell the 190 for a couple hundred dollars less than you paid for it and replace it with a 170.

Check out what Brian Germain says about canopy sizing for new jumpers here - click on "downsizing recommendations" to download his chart. While you're there, read the other articles he has up and be sure to pick up a copy of his book "The Parachute and it's Pilot." Brain is arguably one of the most experienced canopy pilots out there - i.e. he knows wtf he's talking about.

[spiccoli 0]

haha well,i see you guys made it through half of my post. i guess the excitment to flame somone, with no regard to any sort of constructive response was just too much to bare.i forget that some people here were born with 1000 jumps and got to bypass the learning stage. was there any part of my question that conveyed arrogance? if that was the case, iwouldnt even care for any advice. the questions were pretty straigt forward, which most of you dont seem capable of answering without making a clown of yourself.for the more articulate contributors, i progressed 260-240-220-210-190. i didnt just help myself to the rig that appealed to me most that day. my instructors took me through as they felt i was ready.i have no prblem staying there, but in reality i know it will take several months to to aquire a new rig,which will mean many more jumps by then. i belive i aked if this was acceptable, which is a yes/no question with room for advice. im sure you wise noblemen can find a post better suited for your input.theres probably one about novelty mustaches on here somwhere.

we need to talk about your flare..

[brabzzz 0]

Don't worry dude - i suspect most of the heat was direct at me. Any canopy related question gets a similar response - they mean well and they're still alive so they did something right (though you can't tell if they're limping...).

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Now that my comp has uncrashed itself, my original reply.

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I would go with brabzzz
and he thinks it would be cool.

Hell yeah. And the chicks dig it!!!

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What's the worst that could happen.

I've been there more than once when the worse has happend to good friends under conservatively loaded canopies. It is humbling to see how hard a lightly loaded canopy can bite.

My first rig at 50 jumps had both canopies at 1.17. I'm still here though...which could have been luck as much as anything, but i'd like to think it wasn't an unreasonable canopy choice. Sure, i could have got a Skymaster 230...

He could go for the raven/techno reserves - iirc they pack smaller, and therefore get the 170/190 whatever big reserve he wants whilst keeping the container good for downsizing. It is all well and good to say that people should begin sub 1:1, but in the real world few do - for the worse admittadly. Lack of time, money and patience all contribute. Also, as he points out, if he's jumping most weekends and a custom rig won't be ready for months...

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Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club
www.skydivebristoluni.com

[spiccoli 0]

hey riggermick. thanks for the reply, but just to make sure i understand,i think what you were trying to say is "hi spiccoli.im responding on behalf or your query and would like to contribute my 7500 jumps of experience for your benifit because i would not like to see anyone get hurt in our beloved sport.to address your question directly i do/dont think you should go with conopy x because it is/isnt possible to have a sufficiantly safe landing. instead, i would suggest y or z. good luck in your endevours."

did i get the just of it??

we need to talk about your flare..

[ecll 0]

You asked for options. Last year, after talking with RWS about it, I ordered the V350M (190 size) container (rather than the 170 size V348M), specifying on the order form that it was for a Diablo 170 with a PD176R as I wanted the larger reserve. Every thing fits fine, including when I put a dozen demo jumps on a Sabre2 170. As RWS told me, if you want a larger reserve, order the larger container as the main compartment is tight enough to easily go down one main size.

[spiccoli 0]

very eloquently put mojo. your not the guy that walks around the dz with a tub of protien are you?maybe not, but if so, i wrote about you in my "chuckleheads" post. just kidding man,im sure that wasnt you i wrote about, but your "be tough if your gonna be stupid" comment is probably one of the most assanine and careless comments ive ever heard when it comes to somones life. if this is a theory you prescribe to though, please take it to another topic like whether drinking a milkshake is worth it if your lactose intolerant.your theory will be more welcomed there.

we need to talk about your flare..

[spiccoli 0]

thank you both brabzzz and ecll. when advice is put to me like this, it truly broadens the horizons for us young seedlings. i hadnt thought about getting a 350 since i saw it was built for 190,but your experience with it sounds just like what i am going for. i hadnt considered getting a size smaller main as i didnt know if this was a good idea functionaly speaking, but it seems plenty do it. so are there more docile reserves than the PDR, that pack the same size? i think this is what you were saying barbzzz? thanks guys.

we need to talk about your flare..

[mjosparky 3]

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careless comments ive ever heard when it comes to somones life.

Not careless at all. This "chucklehead" has picked up several of you fast movers and they were either dead of screaming their lungs out. It was meant to get your attention.

If you think flying a canopy that is to small for your knowledge or skills is all about drinking a milkshake you are in for a rude awaking.

You asked for advice and you got it. Some of it from people that have been where you are and managed to survive. But there are more than a few that did not survive in their rush to be the next great canopy pilot. This advice was freely given with your safety the only motive. If it seems that this advice is given with an edge of sarcasm it might be because you are just one more in a long line of new jumpers who think they are above average and can handle it.

You can take sound advice or take a chance on being the next one discussed in the incident forum. I for one will not lose sleep over what ever decision you make. But keep in mind that none of us are nearly as good as we think we are. If you survive 500 jumps or 5 years in the sport let me know and we can discuss the subject again.

In the mean time go big and enjoy.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggermick 6]

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hey riggermick. thanks for the reply, but just to make sure i understand,i think what you were trying to say is "hi spiccoli.im responding on behalf or your query and would like to contribute my 7500 jumps of experience for your benifit because i would not like to see anyone get hurt in our beloved sport.to address your question directly i do/dont think you should go with conopy x because it is/isnt possible to have a sufficiantly safe landing. instead, i would suggest y or z. good luck in your endevours."

did i get the just of it??

In a nut shell........Yes. Thank you and safe learning. Have fun. Like the grumpy old man Sparkey, I too have had to pick up my fair share of broken bodies and corpses from "too much too soon" young jumpers, and I can tell you it ain't no fun!. As for scarcasim, well let me think.....Hmmmm. Nope. Can't say I've ever been to a DZ anywhere in the world where it doesn't run rampent, for that matter I've met very few skydivers over the years that weren't sarcastic!! Ain't that a bitch? Pilots and rock climbers are the same way, just comes with the terrertory I guess.


Truth be known it's how we handle the (sometimes) horrible outcomes of many of the endevours that we do. I'm guessing that you have never had many close friends die before their time, us "old timers" have. Aircraft crashes that take out ten to twenty freinds and colleuges at a time, former students who make a fatal mistake, experienced skydivers who drill themselves in to the ground and friends that die from just plain bad luck. Through all of the ranting and scarcasim the message is the same: Take it slowly, you have the whole rest of your life to die. I sincerely hope you take a little wisdom away from this little soap box lecture, It may save your life one day!!!

Mick.

[brabzzz 0]

According to the paragear canopy comparison chart (to be taken with a bucket of salt), a Raven 181 packs smaller than the PD 160.

However, there are those that believe PD makes the best reserve on the market and are willing to pay for them and deal with the larger pack volume as a result. Horses for corses.

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Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club
www.skydivebristoluni.com

[AndyMan 7]

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Yeah. Is it hard to accept that today's skydivers does not want to start thier jumping career under WL 1.0, isn't it?

It's very easy to understand that today's skydivers want to to jump something smaller. Skydivers have ALWAYS wanted to jump something smaller than those boring old manufacturers recomend. That's a constant!

The issue is not what somebody wants to do, but rather what they should do.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[spiccoli 0]

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This "chucklehead" has picked up several of you fast movers

what unauthorized move have i made yet?this is exactly what my post was all about.to get advice so i could sensibly make my next move into my own gear.

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If you think flying a canopy that is to small for your knowledge or skills is all about drinking a milkshake you are in for a rude awaking

im glad you realize this. this is exactly why applying your comment of being tough and stupid doesnt belong here.

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because you are just one more in a long line of new jumpers who think they are above average and can handle it.

haha. dear friend, where did you get this notion?i think you just saw '30 jumps' and 'wing loading' and then had a knee jerk response. if you go back to my post and replies, you will see i provide my past progressions, jump numbers, and WL's under two potential sizes, which i ask "is this acceptable?"which is as simple of a question as there is. you could answer a)no or b)yes, and then explain based on your experience. you take for grannit that this stuff is common knowledge to you by now.i also ask what my options are for having a reserve closer to the size of my main or bigger since this is what comes recomended.this is hardly the words of somone who thinks themself better than average.

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I for one will not lose sleep over what ever decision you make

then you dont have any reason to be posting here.

we need to talk about your flare..

[spiccoli 0]

haha.i have no problem with the sarcasm. just gives me the chance to partake as well. but people are too quick to grumble, without giving reasons why they think what they do. the reasons are what im interested in and are what will save people that wouldnt know otherwise, not the simple minded one liners.im sure with your time in the sport, you and mojo have gained some truly valuable and painful knowledge no doubt, but what good is it if its put to youngsters as "if he wants to kill himself, let him"? seeing as i have not been around to see these things, how would i know if my question was unreasonable in reality?if you have seen catastrophies attributed to similar scenarios, then i would find those experiences truly valuable. thats why im here in the first place, to learn from others' experience, not others' hemroids.experiences will always speek louder than any chart, and will get the attention of more up and commers as myself. still though, i think it is a shame people cant offer wise advice and options to a simple question.if you dont know or want, what else is there to say?like i said,i respect your guys experience in the sport, and am open to any of them that may help or persuade.

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I sincerely hope you take a little wisdom away from this little soap box lecture, It may save your life one day

thats all i was asking for in the first place.

we need to talk about your flare..

[mjosparky 3]

I guess you are good to go. You see to have all the answers. Good luck and try to stay safe.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[spiccoli 0]

thanks mjo, im working on it. so to get back on track for any willing to help, what is the best way to approach the delima of safety and long term use of a container? considering im on 190 now, what is the best all around choice for the long haul?generaly speaking, if im jumping about every weekend, what will i be ready for when my gear gets ready? its been suggested to get a 350 which is built for 190 but could fit 170, or get a lower pack vol./higher square ft. like the raven that could fit in 348. im sure many of you went through the same delimma, so what did you do and how did it work out for you? would you do anything different?

we need to talk about your flare..

[brabzzz 0]

My instructor gave me the age old line 'better down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here'.

I ignored that and got the 170 @~1.17 instead of a 190. I shredded my poptop and 'rolled' across half the DZ under that canopy following a downwinder - 200 jumps later.

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Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club
www.skydivebristoluni.com

[riggermick 6]

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My instructor gave me the age old line 'better down here wishing you were up there than up there wishing you were down here'.

I ignored that and got the 170 @~1.17 instead of a 190. I shredded my poptop and 'rolled' across half the DZ under that canopy following a downwinder - 200 jumps later.

I, (and others) rest my case your honor. "And so it goes".

Look dude (not so much directed at you, brabzzz), we (old timers) are here not to bust your balls because we think we are superior, we're not. We are HERE because WE have somehow miraciuosly escaeped death or life crippling injury over a period of years of doing stupid shit.
This collective history just about ENCOMPASSES YOUR ENTIRE LIFE SO FAR on planet Earth and we (old timers) are trying to tell you To LISTEN TO HISTORY. Unfortunatly it does have a tendency to repeat itself. Either take it to heart or ignore it, it's your call
Mate. I'm offically done with this thread as I feel I can be of no further service.

Mick.