1969912 0 #1 June 22, 2007 Oops. Gear up. http://www.myfoxboston.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=BD1CDAD4177687F827FEF16472EA3A02?contentId=3551493&version=7&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1 "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,074 #2 June 22, 2007 Don't those have some kind of alarm bell that sounds if the plane reaches a certain level on landing without the gear being down to warn the pilot to do a go around?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #3 June 22, 2007 Dunno. It couldn't cost all that much for a simple sonar or microwave device to sense a distance of 50-100 ft., even in light aircraft. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beerlight 0 #4 June 22, 2007 Without video, it's hard to tell if they forgot to put the gear down or at the last second put the gear handle down..... A gear up landing isn't usually too dangerous. (unless you have an asymetric gear deployment)...then things get dicey. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #5 June 23, 2007 This is being talked A LOT in the airline pilot forums. So far it is being reported that the gear indication was DOWN THREE GREEN. But they felt something was off just before touchdown and initiated a low energy balked landing. The plane settle to the pavement causing the sparks but they successfully went around and then worked the problem. The plane then came back in for a safe landing. Whether the crew screwed up should be pretty easy to figure because the Flight Data Recorder will be downloaded and analyzed. And yah, normally there should be a Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS -- JipWiz) should be blaring at around 400 feet above ground level (AGL) GEAR! - TOO LOW! GEAR! - TOO LOW! How they got to ground level with only the nose gear doors open and no warning is being investigated.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
efs4ever 3 #6 June 23, 2007 NTSB talking about it too. Russell M. Webb D 7014 Attorney at Law 713 385 5676 https://www.tdcparole.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #7 June 23, 2007 Good points. Either way, it looks like the pilot did a pretty good job of aborting the landing. Are all aircraft of that size equipped with GPWS? The GPWS probably looks at the same sensors as the gear position lights, so with three greens you wouldn't get a warning anyway. I bet the FDR, if it records gear position, uses the same sensors as well. EDIT: To correct stuff after looking at the NTSB link below. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #8 June 23, 2007 From the NTSB link: QuoteThe crew reported that they had an indication that the gear was down and locked but right before touchdown, they noticed a landing gear lever disagree. Any idea what that means? "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #9 June 23, 2007 May have been a message on the CAS (Crew Alert System). There are usually two computers (some times 3) that constantly compare information with each other. Apparently there was something that didn't agree and they noticed the message at some point. Most common message I see in the CRJ is "EFIS COMP MON". Which is Engine and Flight Information System Compare Monitor and the headings between the CA and FO side disagree.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Derekbox 0 #10 June 23, 2007 Here is the lowdown for those interested in the know how: Landing gear (and pretty much all indications on aircraft) are done via feedback. By that I mean, when the gear handle is put down, the lights do not turn green until the landing gear goes down, and the downlock switches is made. Moving the gear handle does not turn the lights on. There are 2 switchs to be concerned with the landing gear indication the uplock and downlock switch's Here is the simple logic (generally speaking) of the landing gear indication system: if the gear is up, and locked, the uplock switch is made and all gear lights are off. If the gear is in transit (neither uplock nor downlock switch is made) then the gear unsafe light(s) are on. When the gear is down and locked, the gear down (green) lights are on. Now on the 135, there might not be dedicated gear lights, it is may be annuciated on the EICAS. I am not sure. If that is a case, it also addresses another issue, or pilots missing annuciations on the tubes that seem to be more easily caught on an annuciator scan. On the EICAS, it seems that an effort must be made to watch for messages that dont trigger the CW lights (a.k.a. white or advisory messages). As far as warning systems, most modern EGPWS/GPWS systems have a "Too Low Gear" and "Too Low Flap" warning mode (Mode 4). BUT unlike the gear lights, the EGPWS input can very well come from the handle itself. Ideally it comes from the gear switches, but not always. I have installed them both ways. So *IF* the gear system did malfunction (giving a false indication) *AND* the handle was down but the gears were up *AND* the EGPWS was wired to the handle and not the gear switch, then they would not get a warning. EGPWS units also have Inhibit switches which, as the name implies inhibits warnings. Without digging through manuals for hours right now, I can say fairly confidently, that the inhibit switch should not inhibit warnings for gear and flaps. Just terrain warnings. I believe mode 4 uses radio altimeter altitude, but can also use barometic altitude from the airdata system. The airplane itself likely also has a warning system just based off simple switchology. If the flaps are down, then a warning should sound if the throttles are retarded below a certain power settings with the gear up. It is a seperate system than the EGPWS. Thats all for now. Im to tired to dig up more info. Id like to see some wiring diagrams for the 135 right now... There is only one gear handle so there can not be a disagree as far as comparing goes. I think it means that the lights showed green but the handle was up. more to come.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beerlight 0 #11 June 23, 2007 With all the safeguards in-place, I'm sure it was a malfunction of some sort with the a/c. And I would imagine El Capitan' was filing his NASA form purty quick! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #12 June 23, 2007 QuoteDon't those have some kind of alarm bell that sounds if the plane reaches a certain level on landing without the gear being down to warn the pilot to do a go around? Yeah! It should have said "To low gear". I noticed that the nose gear doors were open so that has my mind racing to what the hell happened. Those come open when the gear handle is lowered. I want to say something mechanical but I do not know the ERJ very well so I will wait until the NTSB comes back with there findings of the CVR.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #13 June 23, 2007 Quote The GPWS probably looks at the same sensors as the gear position lights, so with three greens you wouldn't get a warning anyway I would like to know how they got a 3 green with them all up? Without looking at the WDM I have no idea how that could happen.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #14 June 23, 2007 Quote Which is Engine and Flight Information System Compare Monitor and the headings between the CA and FO side disagree. On the CRJ if I remember correctly it was 5 degree difference between the 2 would give you the message. I miss the old CRJ sometimes. If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grips 0 #15 June 23, 2007 Thats why I fly a 172... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #16 June 23, 2007 Quote Thats why I fly a 172... Oh yeah! You need mad skills to be able to auger one of those babies into the ground.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grips 0 #17 June 23, 2007 Quote Quote Thats why I fly a 172... Oh yeah! You need mad skills to be able to auger one of those babies into the ground. . Mad Skills or not. The landing gear is NOT UP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #18 June 23, 2007 Quote Mad Skills or not. The landing gear is NOT UP. Should have been with me on my last landing! I almost changes that.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #19 June 23, 2007 Here are the pics that show the nose gear doors open at ~20' above the runway and at contact. If the gear was in transit, do you think that you would see some tire poking out in the second picture that was taken maybe 5 seconds after the first? I have no idea how fast gear extension is. Also, in the first pic, does it look like the main doors are partially open? The main doors might be mechanically linked to the mains and open as the gear extends instead of going full open like the nose. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grips 0 #20 June 23, 2007 Quote Quote Mad Skills or not. The landing gear is NOT UP. Should have been with me on my last landing! I almost changes that. Thats a hard damn landing! Balloon? Bounce, bounce... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #21 June 23, 2007 QuoteQuoteDon't those have some kind of alarm bell that sounds if the plane reaches a certain level on landing without the gear being down to warn the pilot to do a go around? Yeah! It should have said "To low gear". I noticed that the nose gear doors were open so that has my mind racing to what the hell happened. Those come open when the gear handle is lowered. I want to say something mechanical but I do not know the ERJ very well so I will wait until the NTSB comes back with there findings of the CVR. But if the EGPWS receives gear condition input from the gear lever position and not from the prox switches on each gear leg, you wouldn't get an alert if the lever was in the "down" position, even if the gear was not actually down. See post from Derekbox above. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #22 June 23, 2007 QuoteMad Skills or not. The landing gear is NOT UP. When I did a gear swing on one there was about a 2-3 second delay from when the doors opened to when the gear started to come down. Like I said I dont know what the hell is going on here. QuoteAlso, in the first pic, does it look like the main doors are partially open? It's kinda hard from those pic's to tell if that is the gear starting to come down or if those are the canoes on the bottom of the wing.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #23 June 23, 2007 QuoteThats a hard damn landing! Balloon? Bounce, bounce... More like a controlled impact with runway, bounce, bounce!If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grips 0 #24 June 23, 2007 Quote Quote Thats a hard damn landing! Balloon? Bounce, bounce... More like a controlled impact with runway, bounce, bounce! Oh Yeah. That sounds like my flares. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beerlight 0 #25 June 23, 2007 That's what i was thinking.... In the time between that first pic and touchdown, the gear would have at least been partially visible. I think it was an equipment prob, not piloto' error. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
