airdvr 200 #76 December 2, 2007 Thanks, GC-taking DZOs! You are a credit to the industry. I think that's unfair. And for the record I'm not nor have I ever been a DZO. I am however, a businessman. I have a responsibility to myself, my employees, and my family to make money. If a customer comes to me and has an expectaion that I'll provide a service for a fee I'm going to take their certificate. WHy wouldn't I? Because somebody doesn't like the way it was marketed? I think SKyride beat the USPA and/or DZO's to the punch here. They have a brilliant marketing plan, albeit somewhat misleading. As an organization the USPA probably could do a better job of it. So why don't they? What's stopping them from doing the same thing?Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #77 December 2, 2007 Quote Quote It is much easier to run as a write in. That doesn't answer my question. WHY is it much easier to run as a write in? If I knew how one actually gets on the ballot I might understand why. I don't remember the whole process but I know you have to go out and gather signatures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #78 December 2, 2007 Quote Quote It is much easier to run as a write in. That doesn't answer my question. WHY is it much easier to run as a write in? Do you remember the comment of the "Good Ol Boy" group? If I knew how one actually gets on the ballot I might understand why. If you TRY to run you will find out. RD is an open ballot for the most part and the ND hasn't quite found out how to secure the ballots in the favor that they would want them to be yet. Not without spending more money than they want to to accomplish that goal. A write in can circumvent some of the walls and barriers that the ND has erected to protect his place.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 200 #79 December 2, 2007 Quote Quote The Group Member program was born from the greed of DZOs sitting on the BOD That's one possibility but I really don't think it's the reason why. It's not always a conspiracy If you don't think so, let your membership expire, go get some third party liability insurance and go try to skydive at Group Member DZs. That's not wrong. There are hundereds of examples of the same thing in every aspect of your life. Your always free to go elsewhere. If it bothers you so much start a new organization and compete with them.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #80 December 2, 2007 Quote If it bothers you so much start a new organization and compete with them. Why not institute change in the existing organization and bring it back to some semblance of what it should be?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johndh1 0 #82 December 2, 2007 QuoteThanks, GC-taking DZOs! You are a credit to the industry. I think that's unfair. And for the record I'm not nor have I ever been a DZO. I am however, a businessman. I have a responsibility to myself, my employees, and my family to make money. If a customer comes to me and has an expectaion that I'll provide a service for a fee I'm going to take their certificate. WHy wouldn't I? Because somebody doesn't like the way it was marketed? I think SKyride beat the USPA and/or DZO's to the punch here. They have a brilliant marketing plan, albeit somewhat misleading. As an organization the USPA probably could do a better job of it. So why don't they? What's stopping them from doing the same thing? I think the statement is very fair, considering it could be read and interpreted either way, in the same sense that you and I disagree on the business itself. As for "brilliant," DB Cooper had a "brilliant" plan too (so did "Oceans 11,12,&13,", and Hannibal Lecter), but that doesn't mean it should be promoted, accepted and followed as a model. Would it please you had I stated Thanks, GC-taking DZs! You are a credit to the industry. ---out the door to a non-SRGC DZ and to pick up a chocolate pie from my mom---Roll Tide Roll Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #83 December 2, 2007 They have a brilliant marketing plan, albeit somewhat misleading. Quote Not 'somewhat misleading', but grossly misleading...and therein lies the problem. If it were run ethically, I don't think anyone would have a problem...in fact we would be applauding the exposure. But it's being run like a used car lot...once a customer walks on the property every lie imaginable is told with the sole focus of separating that customer from his money. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #84 December 2, 2007 QuoteIf a customer comes to me and has an expectaion that I'll provide a service for a fee I'm going to take their certificate. WHy wouldn't I? Because somebody doesn't like the way it was marketed? Because then you become their enabler, without which they could not exist in the first place. The only question is whether - as a matter of your personal and professional ethics - that matters to you. Or whether you'd rather be one of these guys: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 212 #85 December 2, 2007 Quote I have a responsibility to myself, my employees, and my family to make money. If a customer comes to me and has an expectaion that I'll provide a service for a fee I'm going to take their certificate. WHy wouldn't I? Because somebody doesn't like the way it was marketed? That depends . . . if you can do it in good conscience, I guess that might be OK to you. But look at it this way - as a business owner - do you employ illegal aliens or do you deal with those that do? If so - then that tells us A LOT about your ethical standards. If NOT, then perhaps you will rethink your original statement. At what cost of your integrity does it make it OK?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 200 #86 December 2, 2007 QuoteThey have a brilliant marketing plan, albeit somewhat misleading. Quote Not 'somewhat misleading', but grossly misleading...and therein lies the problem. If it were run ethically, I don't think anyone would have a problem...in fact we would be applauding the exposure. But it's being run like a used car lot...once a customer walks on the property every lie imaginable is told with the sole focus of separating that customer from his money. If they're lying than the states AG needs to get involved. In the meantime there's nothing stopping us from doing it better than they do is there? It's about competition. Group member DZO's had found a way to hang on to their turf through the membership requirement. SR fired a shot across their bows and they don't like it. USPA did a piss poor job of marketing for the DZO's. I can remember the 1-800- SKYDIVE program a few years back. But they left it to the individual DZO's to do the marketing. I wouldn't be surprised in the future if they find a way to lure Member DZO's away from USPA and to their newly formed (Insert some official sounding skydiving terminology here) Organization. After all, they'll do the marketing for the DZO. Drop Zone's would be like having a franchise.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #87 December 2, 2007 Quote How does one actually get on the ballot for National Director? I've read the governance manual and it says that there's a nominating committee made up of current board members Well you could always call the current Regional Director and ask Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 200 #88 December 2, 2007 QuoteQuote I have a responsibility to myself, my employees, and my family to make money. If a customer comes to me and has an expectaion that I'll provide a service for a fee I'm going to take their certificate. WHy wouldn't I? Because somebody doesn't like the way it was marketed? That depends . . . if you can do it in good conscience, I guess that might be OK to you. But look at it this way - as a business owner - do you employ illegal aliens or do you deal with those that do? If so - then that tells us A LOT about your ethical standards. If NOT, then perhaps you will rethink your original statement. At what cost of your integrity does it make it OK? Did they expect something that I didn't deliver? They paid for a tandem ride and that's what they got. They paid for a video and that's what they got. If they didn't get what they paid for that would be a problem. Certainly you're not so naive as to think that marketing and advertising is 100% truthful. It wouldn't take me long to find a whole bunch of examples where that wasn't the case. It still gets back to who can do a better job of it and why isn't the USPA jumping into the fray with it's own marketing plan.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 212 #89 December 2, 2007 Quote QuoteDid they expect something that I didn't deliver? They paid for a tandem ride and that's what they got. They paid for a video and that's what they got. If they didn't get what they paid for that would be a problem. Well certainly I hope not. I would never ride as a tandem that uses a pilot chute. And I'll be damned if I pay a fee for something that I don't get. So - I guess in answer toyour question, Yes, they did NOT get what they paid for. QuoteCertainly you're not so naive as to think that marketing and advertising is 100% truthful. It wouldn't take me long to find a whole bunch of examples where that wasn't the case. Marketing does not have anything to do with the process of doing the business. I noticed that you avoided answering my question about employing or doing business with employers of illegal aliens. QuoteIt still gets back to who can do a better job of it and why isn't the USPA jumping into the fray with it's own marketing plan. The USPA is a third party insurance holder that is not responsible for businesses and their success or failure, and shouldn't be. However USPA should use at least a good faith effort (Which they tried at first) to distance itself from those that can, by their documented actions, harm the reputation of the USPA by being even remotely affiliated with such an entity.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 200 #90 December 2, 2007 QuoteQuote QuoteDid they expect something that I didn't deliver? They paid for a tandem ride and that's what they got. They paid for a video and that's what they got. If they didn't get what they paid for that would be a problem. Well certainly I hope not. I would never ride as a tandem that uses a pilot chute. And I'll be damned if I pay a fee for something that I don't get. So - I guess in answer toyour question, Yes, they did NOT get what they paid for. Explain please. I don't understand what they didn't get. QuoteCertainly you're not so naive as to think that marketing and advertising is 100% truthful. It wouldn't take me long to find a whole bunch of examples where that wasn't the case. Marketing does not have anything to do with the process of doing the business. Huh?? Marketing has everything to do with the process of doing the business. Example: I'm in the insurance business but what I really do is market the fact that I'm in the insurance business. It's business 101. My profession is one of the most regulated in the US. There are very specific rules as to what I can and can't do. And it isn't the Nat'l Association of Insurance Professionals that makes me do this. It's the laws of the State of Ohio and the federal gov't, or whatever state I do business in. If Skyride is breaking the law they'll be dealt with accordingly, and not by the USPA. I noticed that you avoided answering my question about employing or doing business with employers of illegal aliens. I didn't avoid it. I thought it was rhetorical. I wouldn't employ illegal aliens. As to whether I would do business with one that does...well...that's really their problem and they'll have to deal with it. I know, I know...I'm an enabler. I'd rather they put that on my tombstone than the "Closed" sign on my business. QuoteIt still gets back to who can do a better job of it and why isn't the USPA jumping into the fray with it's own marketing plan. The USPA is a third party insurance holder that is not responsible for businesses and their success or failure, and shouldn't be. However USPA should use at least a good faith effort (Which they tried at first) to distance itself from those that can, by their documented actions, harm the reputation of the USPA by being even remotely affiliated with such an entity. Your statment is contradictory. Either they should be helping with businesses or they shouldn't. Don't you see? They tried to undermine a business and they were about to get spanked for it. Rightly so.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 24 #91 December 2, 2007 QuoteThey tried to undermine a business and they were about to get spanked for it. Rightly so. Removing a priviledge of a member due to the member not living up to the membership agreement is not undermining the business of the member. Its living to the letter and spirit of the agreement with that member.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 212 #92 December 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteThey tried to undermine a business and they were about to get spanked for it. Rightly so. Removing a priviledge of a member due to the member not living up to the membership agreement is not undermining the business of the member. Its living to the letter and spirit of the agreement with that member. He's not going to see it the way it is written. Like he said - he's willing to give up his credibility, integrity and morality to keep the closed sign from his door. Ignoring the fact that he could just get better marketing practices and deal with better clients.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,648 #93 December 2, 2007 Quote I think SKyride beat the USPA and/or DZO's to the punch here. They have a brilliant marketing plan, albeit somewhat misleading. As an organization the USPA probably could do a better job of it. So why don't they? What's stopping them from doing the same thing? Outright lying is "somewhat misleading"? What a load of crock.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BillyVance 34 #94 December 2, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Quote Nope. The original thread was deleted, so if the OP wants to they can reply. I know the OP pretty well. I added an avatar to my profile. Now y'all know what I look like. . Jan, I love you. The gag is kinda hot. What if it had been a ball gag? "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 200 #95 December 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteThey tried to undermine a business and they were about to get spanked for it. Rightly so. Removing a priviledge of a member due to the member not living up to the membership agreement is not undermining the business of the member. Its living to the letter and spirit of the agreement with that member. No, but putting something on your website which says don't do business with this operation is.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #96 December 2, 2007 Quote I don't remember the whole process but I know you have to go out and gather signatures It's clear that you do for Regional Director but not clear that you do for National Director. Few months to figure it out before the next cycle begins. Then we can find out if any of this righteous indignation carries over to actual elections. Speaking of getting involved, who's planning on going to the General Membership meeting in Orlando on February 8? I took a quick look at airfares and it might be a bit steep for me coming from Seattle (and nothing good available with miles) but I'll keep an eye on it in case I can make a weekend out of it. What about those of you who live closer?"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 200 #97 December 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteThey tried to undermine a business and they were about to get spanked for it. Rightly so. Removing a priviledge of a member due to the member not living up to the membership agreement is not undermining the business of the member. Its living to the letter and spirit of the agreement with that member. He's not going to see it the way it is written. Like he said - he's willing to give up his credibility, integrity and morality to keep the closed sign from his door. Ignoring the fact that he could just get better marketing practices and deal with better clients. Some may see it that way, some may not. I know one thing for sure, just from the tone of your posts...you probably don't own a business or have the slightest idea of what it takes to survive in business. If you want to attack my integrity, morals, and character that's your call. I like how you ignored my question about what it was the customer didn't get.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #98 December 2, 2007 Quote I have two questions that I'm not sure I've seen answered anywhere. 1) Has it been officially announced or published somewhere that the USPA has cut a deal with the Skyride folks? I can't find anything on the USPA web site, nor did I see anything in this month's Parachutist (though the deadlines for that can be quite long so the news is often stale). Can someone point me to where that information has been confirmed? http://www.uspa.org/about/index.htm I'd like to know the details of the settlement. Right now I'm pissed off. I'm supposed to "endorce and promote USPA policies", and I kind of walk the line on that one with the Group Membership thing, but this one I cannot even come close to supporting. We're talking about fraud here...we're supposed to endorse that? Quote 2) How does one actually get on the ballot for National Director? I've read the governance manual and it says that there's a nominating committee made up of current board members. But how does one even get to the nominating committee? There's a clear set of steps and deadlines that a Regional Director candidate must follow, but the ND process seems to me to be much more fuzzily defined. It's intentionally set up that way. Mike Mullins was excluded from the ballot back in 2000 or 2002 on the basis of his kids jumping, and in favor of a candidate or two with dramatically less experience and historical perspective. Mike got elected by write-in anyhow and USPA got called on it. They made some unofficial promises to extend a lot more latitude and expand the ballot if necessary, but I'm guessing they've forgotten about it by now (and assume we have too...it's pretty well known that skydivers have a short attention span). Go here and read the group membership pledge on page 3 (including skydiving service code of conduct on page 4). Then go here and read 1-4.3 (G) on page 17. It looks to me like a) USPA is caving on its own membership criteria (group membership is like at-will employment and can be terminated by either party with or without reason, as specifically spelled out in the membership app) and b) the RDs of any regions in which Skyride operates are failing to fulfill their responsibilities. With the help of several donors, I ran a half-page ad in Skydiving the next election promoting new blood, with perhaps some result, but not a ton. Truffer likes to stir the pot...perhaps I should start drafting a new ad about this Skyride fiasco and USPA's kowtowing on it. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Krip 2 #99 December 2, 2007 Quote If the Group Member program didn't exist they would have never gotten themselves into that mess. And why is there a Group Member program you may ask? To force everyone to join the USPA so they can skydive at the Group Member DZs. The Group Member program was born from the greed of DZOs sitting on the BOD Hi Spence IMO your incorrect. Priot to the GMDZ membership program most (loophole) DZ's required USPA membership for fun jumpers. Based on my limited experience this dates back to the late 60's. IMO The GMDZ program was created to give the Tandem industry a advertising ............ (fill in the blank) Go to any DZ websight and what do you see on the front page? The DZ is a USPA member With the offical trademark USPA wings proudly displayed. Of course the really smart people know what it take for a DZ to be a USPA GMDZ. The same thing it takes for a anyone to belong to join USPA (except a DZ) fill out the form and pay your annual dues.R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #100 December 2, 2007 Thanks, Dave. That wasn't where I'd expected to find it so I didn't look there. I'm with you - I'd like to see the details of it, but at least now we're reacting to official news, not unofficial rumors."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 4 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Andy9o8 0 #84 December 2, 2007 QuoteIf a customer comes to me and has an expectaion that I'll provide a service for a fee I'm going to take their certificate. WHy wouldn't I? Because somebody doesn't like the way it was marketed? Because then you become their enabler, without which they could not exist in the first place. The only question is whether - as a matter of your personal and professional ethics - that matters to you. Or whether you'd rather be one of these guys: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #85 December 2, 2007 Quote I have a responsibility to myself, my employees, and my family to make money. If a customer comes to me and has an expectaion that I'll provide a service for a fee I'm going to take their certificate. WHy wouldn't I? Because somebody doesn't like the way it was marketed? That depends . . . if you can do it in good conscience, I guess that might be OK to you. But look at it this way - as a business owner - do you employ illegal aliens or do you deal with those that do? If so - then that tells us A LOT about your ethical standards. If NOT, then perhaps you will rethink your original statement. At what cost of your integrity does it make it OK?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 200 #86 December 2, 2007 QuoteThey have a brilliant marketing plan, albeit somewhat misleading. Quote Not 'somewhat misleading', but grossly misleading...and therein lies the problem. If it were run ethically, I don't think anyone would have a problem...in fact we would be applauding the exposure. But it's being run like a used car lot...once a customer walks on the property every lie imaginable is told with the sole focus of separating that customer from his money. If they're lying than the states AG needs to get involved. In the meantime there's nothing stopping us from doing it better than they do is there? It's about competition. Group member DZO's had found a way to hang on to their turf through the membership requirement. SR fired a shot across their bows and they don't like it. USPA did a piss poor job of marketing for the DZO's. I can remember the 1-800- SKYDIVE program a few years back. But they left it to the individual DZO's to do the marketing. I wouldn't be surprised in the future if they find a way to lure Member DZO's away from USPA and to their newly formed (Insert some official sounding skydiving terminology here) Organization. After all, they'll do the marketing for the DZO. Drop Zone's would be like having a franchise.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #87 December 2, 2007 Quote How does one actually get on the ballot for National Director? I've read the governance manual and it says that there's a nominating committee made up of current board members Well you could always call the current Regional Director and ask Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 200 #88 December 2, 2007 QuoteQuote I have a responsibility to myself, my employees, and my family to make money. If a customer comes to me and has an expectaion that I'll provide a service for a fee I'm going to take their certificate. WHy wouldn't I? Because somebody doesn't like the way it was marketed? That depends . . . if you can do it in good conscience, I guess that might be OK to you. But look at it this way - as a business owner - do you employ illegal aliens or do you deal with those that do? If so - then that tells us A LOT about your ethical standards. If NOT, then perhaps you will rethink your original statement. At what cost of your integrity does it make it OK? Did they expect something that I didn't deliver? They paid for a tandem ride and that's what they got. They paid for a video and that's what they got. If they didn't get what they paid for that would be a problem. Certainly you're not so naive as to think that marketing and advertising is 100% truthful. It wouldn't take me long to find a whole bunch of examples where that wasn't the case. It still gets back to who can do a better job of it and why isn't the USPA jumping into the fray with it's own marketing plan.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 212 #89 December 2, 2007 Quote QuoteDid they expect something that I didn't deliver? They paid for a tandem ride and that's what they got. They paid for a video and that's what they got. If they didn't get what they paid for that would be a problem. Well certainly I hope not. I would never ride as a tandem that uses a pilot chute. And I'll be damned if I pay a fee for something that I don't get. So - I guess in answer toyour question, Yes, they did NOT get what they paid for. QuoteCertainly you're not so naive as to think that marketing and advertising is 100% truthful. It wouldn't take me long to find a whole bunch of examples where that wasn't the case. Marketing does not have anything to do with the process of doing the business. I noticed that you avoided answering my question about employing or doing business with employers of illegal aliens. QuoteIt still gets back to who can do a better job of it and why isn't the USPA jumping into the fray with it's own marketing plan. The USPA is a third party insurance holder that is not responsible for businesses and their success or failure, and shouldn't be. However USPA should use at least a good faith effort (Which they tried at first) to distance itself from those that can, by their documented actions, harm the reputation of the USPA by being even remotely affiliated with such an entity.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 200 #90 December 2, 2007 QuoteQuote QuoteDid they expect something that I didn't deliver? They paid for a tandem ride and that's what they got. They paid for a video and that's what they got. If they didn't get what they paid for that would be a problem. Well certainly I hope not. I would never ride as a tandem that uses a pilot chute. And I'll be damned if I pay a fee for something that I don't get. So - I guess in answer toyour question, Yes, they did NOT get what they paid for. Explain please. I don't understand what they didn't get. QuoteCertainly you're not so naive as to think that marketing and advertising is 100% truthful. It wouldn't take me long to find a whole bunch of examples where that wasn't the case. Marketing does not have anything to do with the process of doing the business. Huh?? Marketing has everything to do with the process of doing the business. Example: I'm in the insurance business but what I really do is market the fact that I'm in the insurance business. It's business 101. My profession is one of the most regulated in the US. There are very specific rules as to what I can and can't do. And it isn't the Nat'l Association of Insurance Professionals that makes me do this. It's the laws of the State of Ohio and the federal gov't, or whatever state I do business in. If Skyride is breaking the law they'll be dealt with accordingly, and not by the USPA. I noticed that you avoided answering my question about employing or doing business with employers of illegal aliens. I didn't avoid it. I thought it was rhetorical. I wouldn't employ illegal aliens. As to whether I would do business with one that does...well...that's really their problem and they'll have to deal with it. I know, I know...I'm an enabler. I'd rather they put that on my tombstone than the "Closed" sign on my business. QuoteIt still gets back to who can do a better job of it and why isn't the USPA jumping into the fray with it's own marketing plan. The USPA is a third party insurance holder that is not responsible for businesses and their success or failure, and shouldn't be. However USPA should use at least a good faith effort (Which they tried at first) to distance itself from those that can, by their documented actions, harm the reputation of the USPA by being even remotely affiliated with such an entity. Your statment is contradictory. Either they should be helping with businesses or they shouldn't. Don't you see? They tried to undermine a business and they were about to get spanked for it. Rightly so.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 24 #91 December 2, 2007 QuoteThey tried to undermine a business and they were about to get spanked for it. Rightly so. Removing a priviledge of a member due to the member not living up to the membership agreement is not undermining the business of the member. Its living to the letter and spirit of the agreement with that member.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites turtlespeed 212 #92 December 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteThey tried to undermine a business and they were about to get spanked for it. Rightly so. Removing a priviledge of a member due to the member not living up to the membership agreement is not undermining the business of the member. Its living to the letter and spirit of the agreement with that member. He's not going to see it the way it is written. Like he said - he's willing to give up his credibility, integrity and morality to keep the closed sign from his door. Ignoring the fact that he could just get better marketing practices and deal with better clients.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,648 #93 December 2, 2007 Quote I think SKyride beat the USPA and/or DZO's to the punch here. They have a brilliant marketing plan, albeit somewhat misleading. As an organization the USPA probably could do a better job of it. So why don't they? What's stopping them from doing the same thing? Outright lying is "somewhat misleading"? What a load of crock.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BillyVance 34 #94 December 2, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Quote Nope. The original thread was deleted, so if the OP wants to they can reply. I know the OP pretty well. I added an avatar to my profile. Now y'all know what I look like. . Jan, I love you. The gag is kinda hot. What if it had been a ball gag? "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 200 #95 December 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteThey tried to undermine a business and they were about to get spanked for it. Rightly so. Removing a priviledge of a member due to the member not living up to the membership agreement is not undermining the business of the member. Its living to the letter and spirit of the agreement with that member. No, but putting something on your website which says don't do business with this operation is.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #96 December 2, 2007 Quote I don't remember the whole process but I know you have to go out and gather signatures It's clear that you do for Regional Director but not clear that you do for National Director. Few months to figure it out before the next cycle begins. Then we can find out if any of this righteous indignation carries over to actual elections. Speaking of getting involved, who's planning on going to the General Membership meeting in Orlando on February 8? I took a quick look at airfares and it might be a bit steep for me coming from Seattle (and nothing good available with miles) but I'll keep an eye on it in case I can make a weekend out of it. What about those of you who live closer?"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airdvr 200 #97 December 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteThey tried to undermine a business and they were about to get spanked for it. Rightly so. Removing a priviledge of a member due to the member not living up to the membership agreement is not undermining the business of the member. Its living to the letter and spirit of the agreement with that member. He's not going to see it the way it is written. Like he said - he's willing to give up his credibility, integrity and morality to keep the closed sign from his door. Ignoring the fact that he could just get better marketing practices and deal with better clients. Some may see it that way, some may not. I know one thing for sure, just from the tone of your posts...you probably don't own a business or have the slightest idea of what it takes to survive in business. If you want to attack my integrity, morals, and character that's your call. I like how you ignored my question about what it was the customer didn't get.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #98 December 2, 2007 Quote I have two questions that I'm not sure I've seen answered anywhere. 1) Has it been officially announced or published somewhere that the USPA has cut a deal with the Skyride folks? I can't find anything on the USPA web site, nor did I see anything in this month's Parachutist (though the deadlines for that can be quite long so the news is often stale). Can someone point me to where that information has been confirmed? http://www.uspa.org/about/index.htm I'd like to know the details of the settlement. Right now I'm pissed off. I'm supposed to "endorce and promote USPA policies", and I kind of walk the line on that one with the Group Membership thing, but this one I cannot even come close to supporting. We're talking about fraud here...we're supposed to endorse that? Quote 2) How does one actually get on the ballot for National Director? I've read the governance manual and it says that there's a nominating committee made up of current board members. But how does one even get to the nominating committee? There's a clear set of steps and deadlines that a Regional Director candidate must follow, but the ND process seems to me to be much more fuzzily defined. It's intentionally set up that way. Mike Mullins was excluded from the ballot back in 2000 or 2002 on the basis of his kids jumping, and in favor of a candidate or two with dramatically less experience and historical perspective. Mike got elected by write-in anyhow and USPA got called on it. They made some unofficial promises to extend a lot more latitude and expand the ballot if necessary, but I'm guessing they've forgotten about it by now (and assume we have too...it's pretty well known that skydivers have a short attention span). Go here and read the group membership pledge on page 3 (including skydiving service code of conduct on page 4). Then go here and read 1-4.3 (G) on page 17. It looks to me like a) USPA is caving on its own membership criteria (group membership is like at-will employment and can be terminated by either party with or without reason, as specifically spelled out in the membership app) and b) the RDs of any regions in which Skyride operates are failing to fulfill their responsibilities. With the help of several donors, I ran a half-page ad in Skydiving the next election promoting new blood, with perhaps some result, but not a ton. Truffer likes to stir the pot...perhaps I should start drafting a new ad about this Skyride fiasco and USPA's kowtowing on it. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Krip 2 #99 December 2, 2007 Quote If the Group Member program didn't exist they would have never gotten themselves into that mess. And why is there a Group Member program you may ask? To force everyone to join the USPA so they can skydive at the Group Member DZs. The Group Member program was born from the greed of DZOs sitting on the BOD Hi Spence IMO your incorrect. Priot to the GMDZ membership program most (loophole) DZ's required USPA membership for fun jumpers. Based on my limited experience this dates back to the late 60's. IMO The GMDZ program was created to give the Tandem industry a advertising ............ (fill in the blank) Go to any DZ websight and what do you see on the front page? The DZ is a USPA member With the offical trademark USPA wings proudly displayed. Of course the really smart people know what it take for a DZ to be a USPA GMDZ. The same thing it takes for a anyone to belong to join USPA (except a DZ) fill out the form and pay your annual dues.R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #100 December 2, 2007 Thanks, Dave. That wasn't where I'd expected to find it so I didn't look there. I'm with you - I'd like to see the details of it, but at least now we're reacting to official news, not unofficial rumors."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 4 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Amazon 7 #87 December 2, 2007 Quote How does one actually get on the ballot for National Director? I've read the governance manual and it says that there's a nominating committee made up of current board members Well you could always call the current Regional Director and ask Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 200 #88 December 2, 2007 QuoteQuote I have a responsibility to myself, my employees, and my family to make money. If a customer comes to me and has an expectaion that I'll provide a service for a fee I'm going to take their certificate. WHy wouldn't I? Because somebody doesn't like the way it was marketed? That depends . . . if you can do it in good conscience, I guess that might be OK to you. But look at it this way - as a business owner - do you employ illegal aliens or do you deal with those that do? If so - then that tells us A LOT about your ethical standards. If NOT, then perhaps you will rethink your original statement. At what cost of your integrity does it make it OK? Did they expect something that I didn't deliver? They paid for a tandem ride and that's what they got. They paid for a video and that's what they got. If they didn't get what they paid for that would be a problem. Certainly you're not so naive as to think that marketing and advertising is 100% truthful. It wouldn't take me long to find a whole bunch of examples where that wasn't the case. It still gets back to who can do a better job of it and why isn't the USPA jumping into the fray with it's own marketing plan.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #89 December 2, 2007 Quote QuoteDid they expect something that I didn't deliver? They paid for a tandem ride and that's what they got. They paid for a video and that's what they got. If they didn't get what they paid for that would be a problem. Well certainly I hope not. I would never ride as a tandem that uses a pilot chute. And I'll be damned if I pay a fee for something that I don't get. So - I guess in answer toyour question, Yes, they did NOT get what they paid for. QuoteCertainly you're not so naive as to think that marketing and advertising is 100% truthful. It wouldn't take me long to find a whole bunch of examples where that wasn't the case. Marketing does not have anything to do with the process of doing the business. I noticed that you avoided answering my question about employing or doing business with employers of illegal aliens. QuoteIt still gets back to who can do a better job of it and why isn't the USPA jumping into the fray with it's own marketing plan. The USPA is a third party insurance holder that is not responsible for businesses and their success or failure, and shouldn't be. However USPA should use at least a good faith effort (Which they tried at first) to distance itself from those that can, by their documented actions, harm the reputation of the USPA by being even remotely affiliated with such an entity.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 200 #90 December 2, 2007 QuoteQuote QuoteDid they expect something that I didn't deliver? They paid for a tandem ride and that's what they got. They paid for a video and that's what they got. If they didn't get what they paid for that would be a problem. Well certainly I hope not. I would never ride as a tandem that uses a pilot chute. And I'll be damned if I pay a fee for something that I don't get. So - I guess in answer toyour question, Yes, they did NOT get what they paid for. Explain please. I don't understand what they didn't get. QuoteCertainly you're not so naive as to think that marketing and advertising is 100% truthful. It wouldn't take me long to find a whole bunch of examples where that wasn't the case. Marketing does not have anything to do with the process of doing the business. Huh?? Marketing has everything to do with the process of doing the business. Example: I'm in the insurance business but what I really do is market the fact that I'm in the insurance business. It's business 101. My profession is one of the most regulated in the US. There are very specific rules as to what I can and can't do. And it isn't the Nat'l Association of Insurance Professionals that makes me do this. It's the laws of the State of Ohio and the federal gov't, or whatever state I do business in. If Skyride is breaking the law they'll be dealt with accordingly, and not by the USPA. I noticed that you avoided answering my question about employing or doing business with employers of illegal aliens. I didn't avoid it. I thought it was rhetorical. I wouldn't employ illegal aliens. As to whether I would do business with one that does...well...that's really their problem and they'll have to deal with it. I know, I know...I'm an enabler. I'd rather they put that on my tombstone than the "Closed" sign on my business. QuoteIt still gets back to who can do a better job of it and why isn't the USPA jumping into the fray with it's own marketing plan. The USPA is a third party insurance holder that is not responsible for businesses and their success or failure, and shouldn't be. However USPA should use at least a good faith effort (Which they tried at first) to distance itself from those that can, by their documented actions, harm the reputation of the USPA by being even remotely affiliated with such an entity. Your statment is contradictory. Either they should be helping with businesses or they shouldn't. Don't you see? They tried to undermine a business and they were about to get spanked for it. Rightly so.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #91 December 2, 2007 QuoteThey tried to undermine a business and they were about to get spanked for it. Rightly so. Removing a priviledge of a member due to the member not living up to the membership agreement is not undermining the business of the member. Its living to the letter and spirit of the agreement with that member.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #92 December 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteThey tried to undermine a business and they were about to get spanked for it. Rightly so. Removing a priviledge of a member due to the member not living up to the membership agreement is not undermining the business of the member. Its living to the letter and spirit of the agreement with that member. He's not going to see it the way it is written. Like he said - he's willing to give up his credibility, integrity and morality to keep the closed sign from his door. Ignoring the fact that he could just get better marketing practices and deal with better clients.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,648 #93 December 2, 2007 Quote I think SKyride beat the USPA and/or DZO's to the punch here. They have a brilliant marketing plan, albeit somewhat misleading. As an organization the USPA probably could do a better job of it. So why don't they? What's stopping them from doing the same thing? Outright lying is "somewhat misleading"? What a load of crock.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #94 December 2, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Quote Nope. The original thread was deleted, so if the OP wants to they can reply. I know the OP pretty well. I added an avatar to my profile. Now y'all know what I look like. . Jan, I love you. The gag is kinda hot. What if it had been a ball gag? "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 200 #95 December 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteThey tried to undermine a business and they were about to get spanked for it. Rightly so. Removing a priviledge of a member due to the member not living up to the membership agreement is not undermining the business of the member. Its living to the letter and spirit of the agreement with that member. No, but putting something on your website which says don't do business with this operation is.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #96 December 2, 2007 Quote I don't remember the whole process but I know you have to go out and gather signatures It's clear that you do for Regional Director but not clear that you do for National Director. Few months to figure it out before the next cycle begins. Then we can find out if any of this righteous indignation carries over to actual elections. Speaking of getting involved, who's planning on going to the General Membership meeting in Orlando on February 8? I took a quick look at airfares and it might be a bit steep for me coming from Seattle (and nothing good available with miles) but I'll keep an eye on it in case I can make a weekend out of it. What about those of you who live closer?"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 200 #97 December 2, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteThey tried to undermine a business and they were about to get spanked for it. Rightly so. Removing a priviledge of a member due to the member not living up to the membership agreement is not undermining the business of the member. Its living to the letter and spirit of the agreement with that member. He's not going to see it the way it is written. Like he said - he's willing to give up his credibility, integrity and morality to keep the closed sign from his door. Ignoring the fact that he could just get better marketing practices and deal with better clients. Some may see it that way, some may not. I know one thing for sure, just from the tone of your posts...you probably don't own a business or have the slightest idea of what it takes to survive in business. If you want to attack my integrity, morals, and character that's your call. I like how you ignored my question about what it was the customer didn't get.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #98 December 2, 2007 Quote I have two questions that I'm not sure I've seen answered anywhere. 1) Has it been officially announced or published somewhere that the USPA has cut a deal with the Skyride folks? I can't find anything on the USPA web site, nor did I see anything in this month's Parachutist (though the deadlines for that can be quite long so the news is often stale). Can someone point me to where that information has been confirmed? http://www.uspa.org/about/index.htm I'd like to know the details of the settlement. Right now I'm pissed off. I'm supposed to "endorce and promote USPA policies", and I kind of walk the line on that one with the Group Membership thing, but this one I cannot even come close to supporting. We're talking about fraud here...we're supposed to endorse that? Quote 2) How does one actually get on the ballot for National Director? I've read the governance manual and it says that there's a nominating committee made up of current board members. But how does one even get to the nominating committee? There's a clear set of steps and deadlines that a Regional Director candidate must follow, but the ND process seems to me to be much more fuzzily defined. It's intentionally set up that way. Mike Mullins was excluded from the ballot back in 2000 or 2002 on the basis of his kids jumping, and in favor of a candidate or two with dramatically less experience and historical perspective. Mike got elected by write-in anyhow and USPA got called on it. They made some unofficial promises to extend a lot more latitude and expand the ballot if necessary, but I'm guessing they've forgotten about it by now (and assume we have too...it's pretty well known that skydivers have a short attention span). Go here and read the group membership pledge on page 3 (including skydiving service code of conduct on page 4). Then go here and read 1-4.3 (G) on page 17. It looks to me like a) USPA is caving on its own membership criteria (group membership is like at-will employment and can be terminated by either party with or without reason, as specifically spelled out in the membership app) and b) the RDs of any regions in which Skyride operates are failing to fulfill their responsibilities. With the help of several donors, I ran a half-page ad in Skydiving the next election promoting new blood, with perhaps some result, but not a ton. Truffer likes to stir the pot...perhaps I should start drafting a new ad about this Skyride fiasco and USPA's kowtowing on it. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krip 2 #99 December 2, 2007 Quote If the Group Member program didn't exist they would have never gotten themselves into that mess. And why is there a Group Member program you may ask? To force everyone to join the USPA so they can skydive at the Group Member DZs. The Group Member program was born from the greed of DZOs sitting on the BOD Hi Spence IMO your incorrect. Priot to the GMDZ membership program most (loophole) DZ's required USPA membership for fun jumpers. Based on my limited experience this dates back to the late 60's. IMO The GMDZ program was created to give the Tandem industry a advertising ............ (fill in the blank) Go to any DZ websight and what do you see on the front page? The DZ is a USPA member With the offical trademark USPA wings proudly displayed. Of course the really smart people know what it take for a DZ to be a USPA GMDZ. The same thing it takes for a anyone to belong to join USPA (except a DZ) fill out the form and pay your annual dues.R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #100 December 2, 2007 Thanks, Dave. That wasn't where I'd expected to find it so I didn't look there. I'm with you - I'd like to see the details of it, but at least now we're reacting to official news, not unofficial rumors."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
