Conundrum 1 #76 April 30, 2008 Quote If two dogs exist, one at a reputable breeder and one at a local rescue, they both need good homes equally. Sure they do, but I'd prefer to adopt a dog who sits in a kennel all day with no feeling of "home" than a dog who is at a breeders home with a person caring for it like it was their own and profiting by adding to the already overgrown population of pets. And, a breeder isn't going to kill a dog that someone doesn't adopt in a week. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #77 May 1, 2008 Quote Did you even try to do a search for breed specific rescues? I just did a quick one for Bengal cats, and there are a bunch of rescues all over the country for them. Sometimes even the rescues come with papers.... people of all kinds abuse animals, even those loaded enough to spend $1000 on a cat Find me a rescue in Utah for Bengals that doesn't want identical cost for a cat, and I'll be there tomorrow. There isn't one. So, I can spend 1k flying somewhere to rescue a Bengal from a group/home, have zero guarantee about the cat's health and background, or I can drive to one of four world-renowned breeders in my area, and buy a spayed/neutered cat of my choice whom I get to observe over time before bringing it home for about $500.00. I have no interest in breeding, and breeders require that to keep the line pure, they neuter or spay the kitten before delivery. If you want a breeder-grade kitten, you pay 3-4 times the amount of a non-breedable. If a rescue was convenient, less costly, and as guaranteed as a breeder-bought animal, I'd look at a rescue cat. But pitting 1K of unknown temperment vs half that cost and a reasonably assumed temperment...I'll take the lower risk. I suspect most folks would, if they were in my situation. Not everyone lives near densely populated areas that offers a lot of choices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chykynlyps 0 #78 May 1, 2008 no im not an expert, nor do i play one on tvBear Down Chicago Bears! "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #79 May 1, 2008 QuoteQuote If two dogs exist, one at a reputable breeder and one at a local rescue, they both need good homes equally. Sure they do, but I'd prefer to adopt a dog who sits in a kennel all day with no feeling of "home" than a dog who is at a breeders home with a person caring for it like it was their own and profiting by adding to the already overgrown population of pets. And, a breeder isn't going to kill a dog that someone doesn't adopt in a week. I have no reason to believe ethical breeding is particularly profitable. They may make a little more than cost, but it's certainly not a ton. Minka's litter consisted of four puppies. One was a white, which they were caring for till they could neuter it and find it a quality home (where it would go for little if any fee). They were also keeping one in anticipation that they could start showing it in a year or so and *hopefully* breed it in 2-3 years, if it developed like they hoped and could pass the battery of health tests. That left two puppies to sell, one pet quality (Minka) and one that would only go to a show home. Out of that income, they had to pay the sire's fee (semen shipped from Florida), insemination/pregnancy/delivery costs, shots and exams for all four puppies, a pro-rated portion of the dam's heart/thyroid/hip certifications, AKC registration costs for the litter, care costs for the white, gas to meet me halfway between their home and mine, etc, etc. Backyard breeders & puppy mills do it for the profit. Ethical breeders are not rolling in dough from the effort. Also, the rescues I'm familiar with are at people's homes (or farms), with plenty of playmates, room to roam, and no standing death warrant on any dogs except those which prove to be violent. It's entirely possible there are breed-specific rescues which do euthanize after some period of time, but I'm unaware of them. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LisaM 0 #80 May 1, 2008 Both are cats are rescues. My son wants a dog. He wants a purebred rottweiler. Hubby has had two before so we aren't worried about that part (well THEY aren't). But I am trying to let them know there are soooo many dogs that need good homes out there or they will be put to sleep. But I don't think that i would get a rottweiler rescue, it seems like a loaded gun since you don't know it's background and how it was bred. ~ Lisa ~ Do you Rigminder? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #81 May 1, 2008 The problem is that there are already too many animals to rescue. I live among other houses, but it is not a subdivision type environment. There are two domesticated cats that stroll around my yard and another two obviously wild cats. This week, driving down the road, I see 4 new all-black cats resembling the all-black wild one. I also see dead animals on the road all the time. Weak and starving animals that get whacked by cars. We've got a bonus amount of stray animals. If people are going to let them run around outside, they need to fix them first. Irresponsibility for a live animal is creating the problem. (Is "fix" the right word? It works now, it needs to be "broken".) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #82 May 1, 2008 This is my dog's breeder's estimation of how much it costs... most good breeders operate at a loss and do it for the love of the breed. Costs of a Good Breeding Program Here are some of the things that go into creating and maintaining a breeding program of lovely dogs that are great representatives of their breed, are healthy and have good temperaments: Go to shows, meet breeders, show commitment to breed (join clubs, attend meetings, read books and articles) COST: $200 to $500 per year plus many days and hours! Purchase show quality dog to show (NOTE: the above step must be done first or it is very hard to acquire a show dog of any worth!!) COST: $1500 to $2500 Maintain dog (food, vet bills, de-worming, etc.). COST: about $500 per year per dog Show dog to Championship to prove its worthiness and value to the breed. COST: on the conservative side, about $1800 (this is ridiculously conservative as only gas money, entry fees and grooming products were included and not lodging!) Assuming success thus far, purchase another show dog of opposite sex whose pedigree and physical characteristics (genotype and phenotype) will compliment your first one. If not successful, start over anyway! COST: add up totals above once if first one worked out, twice if not. When above has been repeated (and paid out) enough to have acquired and shown two lovely dogs, one male and one female, who compliment each other, you can now prepare to breed them by doing the necessary genetic screening tests for that breed. In Papillons that's eyes, knees, and heart. Permanent identification is required previous to the tests. So for Microchip, CERF, Patella and Cardiology screening and certification PER dog, COST: currently about $147.50 per dog if you save money at screening clinics. IF ANY DOG DOESN'T PASS ALL THE TESTS, STOP, and START ALL OVER!!! If your male and female pass the genetic screening to make sure no awful stuff will be passed to the puppies, perform a Brucellosis test on at least the female. COST: $60 If no one has scary diseases, you may breed them. Now we have Ultrasound and Xray exams for the hopefully pregnant female. COST: $120 to $300 IF YOU CANNOT GET FEMALE PREGNANT, STOP, and START ALL OVER with new female, male, or BOTH!! If you are Blessed with a litter of 2 to 4 puppies (average for Papillons), you will now need to feed them when they start eating mama's food, give them at least 3 sets of shots and de-worm them. You also may need dewclaws removed. COST: $30 or so as a low estimate PER puppy. Next, the puppies also get microchipped, spayed or neutered, and their rabies shots. COST: $275 PER PUPPY IF A C-SECTION WAS NEEDED, add $600 to $1500 to litter cost. TOTALS WITHOUT a C-section, a conservative estimate assuming only 2 show dogs were purchased and turned out (HIGHLY UNLIKELY), a litter of 3 puppies costs the breeder: $8,340.00 (with spay/neuter, microchip and Rabies). THIS IS $2,780 PER PUPPY!! To be quite honest, most breeders have actually paid a LOT more (most of us would much rather NOT look at the actual figures!). The cost of the hotels or RV were not added to the show costs, several dogs purchased did not turn out good enough quality to breed, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #83 May 1, 2008 Quote But I don't think that i would get a rottweiler rescue, it seems like a loaded gun since you don't know it's background and how it was bred. It's worse than a loaded gun. Loaded guns only go off when you pull the trigger. Untrained dogs can go off whenever. What about getting two? Get your purebred rottie, and maybe a shepherd mix from a rescue to go along with him? That way, they won't be lonely while you're at work. Shepherds and rotties are both "guarding" breeds, so they should get on fine, especially if you get both as puppies so they grow up together. Rotties are beautiful dogs! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #84 May 1, 2008 QuoteThis is my dog's breeder's estimation of how much it costs... most good breeders operate at a loss and do it for the love of the breed. That's my understanding as well, and your costs do look low, though breeders frequently don't own both parents. Another good description is here. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #85 May 1, 2008 Our situation is different from most peoples'...we need a specific 'working' dog. We need one for service for our disabled sons. When we do get another dog, it will come from a breeder that has a history placing dogs in service positions. -We tried a 3 year old rescue dog (I posted it on here a couple of years ago) and it really showed us that that won't be possible with our sons. The reasons are many, and a lot have been mentioned: We need a history of producing dogs of breed, type, and temperament that is conducive of an autism service animal (that's a tall order). We need NOT to be worried about hips, eyes, heart, etc. Again, a breeder with history, testing, and a buy-back guarantee (we absolutely could not keep a working animal that could not work). We also need a breeder that will let us raise the puppy, then send the puppy to the pro for training. -This has been very difficult to find when I was looking in the past few years, however, for Autistic service dogs, this is now becoming closer to the SOP for many organizations due to the peculiarities of Autism. Some service organizations use rescue dogs, but the ones I've talked with on the phone, I would NOT drop $15,000 per pup on. The owner told me we wouldn't be able to put in for a type of breed or mix (or even a size! If anyone has ever met my babies, they'd know that X-Large is absolutely necessary. ) -And further, we'd have to raise the $15,000 per dog prior to training, and when we show up and they try to give us a damn Chihuahua or something, we forfeit the $15,000 because they operate as a 'charity'. I swear it's one of the biggest rackets going...-Oh sorry! Didn't mean to go off on a tangent... ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #86 May 1, 2008 QuoteOur situation is different from most peoples'...we need a specific 'working' dog. We need one for service for our disabled sons. Absolutely! And there are definitely some other good reasons for going to a specific breeder. Rehmwa mentioned another about having allergies and wanting his child to have a pet. I keep hearing the same argument, however, about "don't know what you're getting" from a rescue. Me thinks these folks have not been to or looked into many rescue operations.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #87 May 1, 2008 QuoteThis is my dog's breeder's estimation of how much it costs... most good breeders operate at a loss and do it for the love of the breed. And what is the ratio, by your estimation, of "good breeders" to breeders who profit (fairly well)? It sounds as if you're under the assumption few breeders profit.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #88 May 1, 2008 QuoteBut I don't think that i would get a rottweiler rescue, it seems like a loaded gun since you don't know it's background and how it was bred. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's worse than a loaded gun. Loaded guns only go off when you pull the trigger. Untrained dogs can go off whenever. Get a rescue puppy. Train it. At the very least--before making assumptions about what might be unknown--perhaps visit the two nearest rottie-specific rescues. I'm pretty sure you'll find they're not handing out dogs with an unknown temperament. As peregrinerose first mentioned, they're fostered out, tested with other dogs, cats, kids, etc. usually for a minimum of three months while also undergoing medical check-ups and spay/neutering.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #89 May 1, 2008 QuoteQuoteThis is my dog's breeder's estimation of how much it costs... most good breeders operate at a loss and do it for the love of the breed. And what is the ratio, by your estimation, of "good breeders" to breeders who profit (fairly well!)? It sounds as if you're under the assumption few breeders profit. No... I am under the assumption that few good breeders profit. Anyone who is profiting greatly from a breeding program is a puppy mill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #90 May 1, 2008 QuoteI am under the assumption that few good breeders profit We agree on this point. My point, however, is for every "non-profit" breeder there are probably 100 profiting. And most people are not aware of how to recognize the difference.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #91 May 1, 2008 Quote It's entirely possible there are breed-specific rescues which do euthanize after some period of time, but I'm unaware of them I struggle with the humane-kill vs. no-kill argument. When our local Humane Society went no-kill, Animal Care & Control almost doubled their number of euthanizations--not to mention adoptable animals being euthanized because of lack of room. Another concern is what people do with their animals when they have tried to surrender them to a no-kill shelter and are told the shelter is full. Which brings me to my point, with all the animals euthanized each day (and not always humanely), and all the animals turned away from a no-kill shelters (and likely then abused or neglected), the argument of "the puppy in the store is just as deserving of a good home" is easily refuted. It's like saying, "I don't like you breeding dogs for profit, but since you already did I'm going to go ahead and pay you so you can do it again." Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #92 May 1, 2008 Quote Which brings me to my point, with all the animals euthanized each day (and not always humanely), and all the animals turned away from a no-kill shelters (and likely then abused or neglected), the argument of "the puppy in the store is just as deserving of a good home" is easily refuted. It's like saying, "I don't like you breeding dogs for profit, but since you already did I'm going to go ahead and pay you so you can do it again." That would be great, except I wasn't talking about a puppy at a store. I was talking about a "pet quality", non-breed-worthy puppy at a "good breeder" (i.e. one who makes very little, if any, money because they do it the right way for the right reasons). In such an situation, I have no problem with paying them so they can do it again. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lilDevil 2 #93 May 1, 2008 Rescue hands down because they need a chance to give love and be loved ! lild``````````````````````````````````` " Cant keep a good woman down " Angels have wings, but devils can fly ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #94 May 1, 2008 QuoteI was talking about a "pet quality", non-breed-worthy puppy at a "good breeder"...In such an situation, I have no problem with paying them so they can do it again. If it was a negative-edged pool filtrated to ensure removal of every micron of dirt and had a water temperature of 74.2 degrees, I would have no problem going for a swim. They're out there, but if someone is hot & ready to swim, they're probably just going to settle for one of the 100 other pools nearby.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #95 May 1, 2008 Okay, here's a story about rescues that I stumbled across today that is pretty impressive work. Makes rescues back here look easy... http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CAT_LADY_OF_BAGHDAD?SITE=AZTUC&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lastchance 0 #96 May 1, 2008 Rescue. When I go to the shelter I want to take every animal home. I can't stand seeing them caged like that. Although our local shelter has a no kill policy. As far as the fees go I don't mind at all knowing that the $$$ is going back into the shelter for food, care and maintenance. My wife and I just adopted a new dog two weeks ago and we are all happy. He is a wonderfull new companion. I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #97 May 1, 2008 Congratulations! Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #98 May 1, 2008 Quote Quote I was talking about a "pet quality", non-breed-worthy puppy at a "good breeder"...In such an situation, I have no problem with paying them so they can do it again. If it was a negative-edged pool filtrated to ensure removal of every micron of dirt and had a water temperature of 74.2 degrees, I would have no problem going for a swim. I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree. Personally, I see a big difference between pet store puppies and ethically bred puppies, but it's cool by me if you perceive there to be an incredibly fine line between the two. Rescues need good homes too, and I'm glad people adopt them. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #99 May 1, 2008 Great feature! I love the name--Simba al-Tikriti. And excellent point, sneaky girl--that's definitely a cat I'd pay ($3,500) for. But I'll leave the overseas adoptions to Angelina for the time being. Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #100 May 1, 2008 Quote I see a big difference between pet store puppies and ethically bred puppies, but it's cool by me if you perceive there to be an incredibly fine line between the two. Rescues need good homes too, and I'm glad people adopt them. I think you misunderstood my point, but I take partial fault for making an argument-by-analogy (never the strongest way to go ). I also see a big difference between a pet store puppy and an ethically bred one. My point, again, is for every "reputable breeder" there are probably 100 others posing as such.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
