galvar2439 0 #1 May 11, 2008 My friend has 14 jumps, completed her FF, has most of her gold card done and now just needs 3 more coach jumps and complete her 25 to get her A. She jumped here in Michigan with me and was trying to complete her A in Missouri. Heres where it gets complicated. The DZ in Missouri told her that they use a "one handled system" since she learned "two handled" they did not want her to jump so she would not get confused, What the hack is that or are they playing some sort of prank (which would be a good one) Help please, i never heard these terms beforeSo i just broke up with this woman who wasn't even my girlfriend! Hellfish #782, POPS #10664 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #2 May 11, 2008 They might be referring to a S.O.S. system where the cut away and the reserve are on the same handle compared to the standard set up with a Cutaway and Reserve on separate handles.. If they are refusing to finish with your friend what do they do when their students get their A and then go buy "standard" gear??? I would imagine that they should be able to cross train but for your friend it might be easier to just go bang out the jumps somewhere else and then they are good and don't have to cross train for just a few jumps. Most likely they will have a rig with he standard set up after they get the A. Mind you cross training for an SOS is not that difficult and I am surprised the DZ is putting up a fuss about it. Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
galvar2439 0 #3 May 11, 2008 Thanks, you make a good point my friend and have cleared the muddy waters.So i just broke up with this woman who wasn't even my girlfriend! Hellfish #782, POPS #10664 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #4 May 11, 2008 well it sounds like the "politcally correct" version, of the reason ( excuse) they gave you.. Instead of admitting,, we're too busy to waste time having an instructor spend 20 minutes with your friend, to assure that the novice would be safe,, they sort of just shoved you aside... Maybe not worth the staffs' time for an "up-jumper" who might buy one or only two lift tickets.... Could be that they were busy with Their OWN students , to offer any courtesy to a visitor... and i suppose it's their right....Was it a busy day, with tandems and AFF??? was this a DZ with a BIG plane or a small plane...? One plane or two...? I fear they just didn't wanna be bothered with any sort of briefing, or re-training. Whose gear was to be used??? your friends'??? or the DZ's???? sad..... but it's their DZ, and whoever owns the toys, makes the rules... (just my guess on the matter ... and.... i DO hope i am wrong ) sorry it wasn't a slow day , so that you both could have jumped.... There's nothing more discouraging to a newbie,, than to plan a visit to a new DZ, carry along logbooks, proficiency cards, gear, and a smile,,, and then get shut out for any reason.... Weather??/ we can deal with, but uncaring and /or insensitve staff, can hurt a DZ in subtle ways, that many a dzo never realizes... .... as for One handed????? well if your friend was trained to "peel and pull the cutaway pad, and then look reach peel and pull the silver".......then she would be just fine,,, since the first move on the gear from the dz you visited, would have initiated a cutaway AND a reserve container opening....and the silver ripcord pull would have been redundant. NOW however,,,,, If trained on an S O S system and switching to gear that requires a separate move to activate the reserve,,,,, THEN i can certainly see the potential for a problem... IF the gear has no RSL and if the S O S trained student,,,, only does the ONE move.....and does NOT pull silver... But that's not the case here... as described by the O P . anyway.. good luck, I hope your friend is closing in on her A License Qualifications... skydive safely jmy A 3914 USPA # 9452 4 stack 930 jmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #5 May 11, 2008 could also be (and i have seen it done) that she only wanted to do a couple of jumps there and then would be going back to her other DZ and back on to the SOS, my DZ has decline to convert someone to a TAS because of thisYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
galvar2439 0 #6 May 12, 2008 Quote well it sounds like the "politcally correct" version, of the reason ( excuse) they gave you.. Instead of admitting,, we're too busy to waste time having an instructor spend 20 minutes with your friend, to assure that the novice would be safe,, they sort of just shoved you aside... Maybe not worth the staffs' time for an "up-jumper" who might buy one or only two lift tickets.... Could be that they were busy with Their OWN students , to offer any courtesy to a visitor... and i suppose it's their right....Was it a busy day, with tandems and AFF??? was this a DZ with a BIG plane or a small plane...? One plane or two...? I fear they just didn't wanna be bothered with any sort of briefing, or re-training. Whose gear was to be used??? your friends'??? or the DZ's???? sad..... but it's their DZ, and whoever owns the toys, makes the rules... (just my guess on the matter ... and.... i DO hope i am wrong ) sorry it wasn't a slow day , so that you both could have jumped.... There's nothing more discouraging to a newbie,, than to plan a visit to a new DZ, carry along logbooks, proficiency cards, gear, and a smile,,, and then get shut out for any reason.... Weather??/ we can deal with, but uncaring and /or insensitve staff, can hurt a DZ in subtle ways, that many a dzo never realizes... .... as for One handed????? well if your friend was trained to "peel and pull the cutaway pad, and then look reach peel and pull the silver".......then she would be just fine,,, since the first move on the gear from the dz you visited, would have initiated a cutaway AND a reserve container opening....and the silver ripcord pull would have been redundant. NOW however,,,,, If trained on an S O S system and switching to gear that requires a separate move to activate the reserve,,,,, THEN i can certainly see the potential for a problem... IF the gear has no RSL and if the S O S trained student,,,, only does the ONE move.....and does NOT pull silver... But that's not the case here... as described by the O P . anyway.. good luck, I hope your friend is closing in on her A License Qualifications... skydive safely jmy A 3914 USPA # 9452 4 stack 930 jmy She lives there near the DZ and actually did her first static line jump there, but then switched to AFF. We went to LAke Wales to do our AFF course. That would be her "home DZ". She has been there before. She wants to finish her coach jumps there and then she can just fun jump there also. She did learn with the cut away handle but i think they just arent being honest or smart.So i just broke up with this woman who wasn't even my girlfriend! Hellfish #782, POPS #10664 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #7 May 12, 2008 Not an instructor, low jump numbers etc. The problem might be with swicthing back and forth between single and double handled systems. It's just better to stick with the same method as much as possible. At my home DZ students are typically trained on mantas with ripcord opening systems, until they're ready to switch to the more advanced gear with hand deployed BOC pilot. I'm past it now, but sure as hell I had to actually think about my opening the first few jumps because I instinctively reached for my hip instead of the BOC pouch. This was easily compensated for by me doing H&P's at 6k. More then enough time to open the main and incidentally spend some effort in achieving my canopy control requirements. Now apply the loss of a few seconds to an EP. Of course - when you LOOK to GRAB your cutaway and it isn't there, you just pull the other handle. Only a few seconds lost, right? Imagine you have a closed container mal (for instance a hard pull), and are falling at 200 ft per second. You tried to open your main twice, and now you're at 2K. Is this the time to start thinking about where your handles are? Now lets say you've got your own gear after a few SOS jumps. You've got a spinning mal. Having the muscle memory for a SOS system, you accidentally forget to cutaway, and launch your reserve straight into the mess... I'm not saying this will always happen, or that one or the other system is bad per se - just that someone should switch between systems as few times as possible. Maybe it's best to make those three jumps and a few after that at the other DZ until she's ready to buy her own gear. (ETA: I've never jumped a SOS system myself. This post is solely based on my experiences switching between opening systems)"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #8 May 12, 2008 QuoteQuotewell it sounds like the "politically correct" version, of the reason ( excuse) they gave you.. Instead of admitting,, we're too busy to waste time having an instructor spend 20 minutes with your friend, to assure that the novice would be safe,, they sort of just shoved you aside... jmy A 3914 USPA # 9452 4 stack 930 She lives there near the DZ and actually did her first static line jump there, but then switched to AFF. We went to LAke Wales to do our AFF course. That would be her "home DZ". She has been there before. She wants to finish her coach jumps there and then she can just fun jump there also. She did learn with the cut away handle but i think they just arent being honest or smart. I'm going to disagree with jimmytavino's take and yours. I think the dz did the right and caring thing. Any time you switch to new or unfamiliar equipment, there is increased risk: the harness doesn't fit exactly the same, the main deployment handle may be in a different place, the emergency systems may require different procedures. What your friend asked the dz to do was put her at additional risk by requiring her to make two transitions: from a two-handled (cutaway and reserve ripcord) system, to a one-handled (cutaway and reserve ripcord combined) system, and back again after just a couple jumps. The more drill and practice done to make the first transition safe, the more risky the second. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
