Collapsable Pilot Chute on a Sabre 190. Thoughts?

[F16Driver 0]

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is there listed anywhere the average canopy speed by wingloading on a no wind day?

No. Firstly, it will differ greatly with changes in desinty altitude. Second, the size and shape of the load will effect the no wind speed, not just WL.

It's just too dynamic to be meaningfully measured, and even if I could, I can't see how it would be relevant.

The only time I find it canopy airspeed relevant is when I compare it to the winds. Just gives me an idea if I'm going to go backwards under canopy. I measured mine just by using a little $20 handheld windspeed indicator I got at a kite shop. I just held it out into the undisturbed air under canopy.

You are right when you say that there are too many other factors to make hard numbers for speed and wingloading.

"I promise, I will never die."

[angryelf 0]

I'm still very inexperienced with less than 100 jumps myself, but I did what you have-bought a PD190 (F-111) after jumping student 230's and 220's. (And several jumps on MC-4 360's with combat equipment.) My first jump on the 190 was a little bit hairy. I had about 28 jumps at the time and scared the hell out of myself the first 5 times I was under canopy. I had some pretty serious brake line problems (they were too short and I was too inexperienced to notice it) and always had hard landings. I almost broke bones TWICE b/c of the brake problem and would probably be laid up right now if someone had not looked at my rig and told me to lengthen my lines. Even with the line issue straightend out-it took me another 15 jumps to get confident under my canopy.

I now have about 40 jumps on the 190 and put a collapsible p/c on it 10 jumps ago. Canopy perfomance is much improved and my landings are better b/c I get a little more forward speed and can flare more effectively.

Definitly put a collapsible on your rig-but get another 20-30 jumps on something bigger (220-then 210), have an experienced jumper (who is of simular build) check ride your rig b/f you ever step on a plane with it, and when you do jump it-be conservative and don't plan some crazy dive flow-do a simple hop n pop at 6 grand or so and get as much time as you can to experiment with it at altitude.

And lastly-don't take what I (or anyone single person says) for gospel. Once again-I'm still very inexperienced my self and want to share my experiences with downsizing too quickly in the hope that you don't get discouraged at being told to stay on bigger stuff, but that you get to the ground safely every time you exit.

"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

[rwieder 0]

I don't understand the deal here. I trained with a BOC - Collapsible PC, i never knew any difference, still don't.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[Big_Red 0]

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Would it make you feel better if I started another thread with the title "Big Red's big ideas about wing loading"?

You are more then welcome to but seeing as how I don't have any ideas on Wing Loading it would really be "Big Red's lack of big ideas about Wing Loading"

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Who wants to admit that they aren't skilled enough to handle or are afraid of what was recommended to them by God?

Well...I am sure my Instrustor appreciates the compliment but by no means is he the all knowing creater of Heaven and Earth.
BTW...I will have no problems admitting that I am not ready for my 190 should that be the case.

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You can listen to who ever you want. What I'm saying is this, if you are getting advice from one person to jump a 190, and advice from another, similarly qualified, person to jump a 210, your best bet is to go with the bigger canopy.

I would like to point out 1 thing though. The only people telling me to go with a bigger canopy are a bunch of people on a message board I have never met who are making judgement calls based on the number of jumps listed in my profile.
My Instructor, the DZO, other jumpers, my skydiving friends and everyone else who has seen me jump and land my last 11 jumps have all agreed that a 190 is a good choice for me.

----

Again...I do appreicate everyones concern for my Wing Loading, and I do read everything (even bounce it off my friends afterward) so please feel free to keep posting your opinions.

Another thing I would like note is that several people have said that "If I have doubts, I should go bigger"...however I have at no point in time indicated that I have doubts about my ability to fly a 190. Will that change when I jump it...only time will tell.

I will make sure to keep everyone up-to-date though.

I also want to thanks those that have posted replies in regards to the Collaspable PC. They have all been very helpful.

Derec Davies
Big_Red

[goose491 0]

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Not sure what you mean by leg strap mod. Can you elaborate?

I've seen the gear. If I'm not mistaken, he's refering to a "leg strap throwout"... that is, it's a BOC, but there is a Pilot-Chute pouch on the legstrap too... and a bunch o' velcro to 'hold' the bridal in place from the closing flaps to the legstrap (very ugly. lol). We'll be pulling the stiches and removing the strip of velcro.

...the extra pouch on the legstrap could be used to store a pair of shorts someday, on his first naked jump, I presume.


And if that's not what Red's refering to, then it's the butt-bungee. Which will be an asset.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[blue_sky_chris 0]

Just wondering where this wingloading obsession has come from. Perhaps it would be more useful to think in terms of the type and quality of the gear. I started jumping a ("square") 190 ZP half way through my AFF consols - I weigh about 13.5 stone. My reasons for doing this were largely due to gear availability but I'm REALLY glad I did. The student gear scared the shit out of me - old telesis containers so worn and thread-bare that lines could often be seen exposed, FXC mechanical AAD, a 290 F111 canopy with several thousand jumps on it! These canopies did not flare and I almost planted myself several times. Now consider a docile ZP 190 with less than 100 jumps on it - this allowed me to land pretty much where I wanted to, the container was comfortable and secure and (here's the best bit) the canopy had an incredible amount of flare power - every single landing was gentle and on my feet. I felt so much safer under this wing that jumping instantly became more enjoyable for me. OK so the 190 will lose slightly more hight in a turn and turn a bit quicker but so what? As long as you know this it shouldn't be a problem. In my (albeit limited) personal experience the potential for serious injury was far greater with the worn out old student kit than with new, solid and slightly smaller gear. I stress again that this was a "square" 190 not some hot-rod elliptical thing but the wingloading figure would be the same for both. I have (intentionally) landed the 190 down wind on a hot day without a problem but I'm sure I'd have been badly hurt doing this on the student gear. Had to get that off my chest.;-)

[kelpdiver 2]

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I started jumping a ("square") 190 ZP half way through my AFF consols - I weigh about 13.5 stone. My reasons for doing this were largely due to gear availability but I'm REALLY glad I did.

doing the math - 13.5*20 + 25 = 295/190 = 1.55.

No thanks.

[blue_sky_chris 0]

1 stone = 14 pounds therefore :

13.5 x 14 + 22 = 211

211/190 = 1.11

[davelepka 4]

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Just wondering where this wingloading obsession has come from

I've seen more guys pound in resulting in serious injury (some life-long, some fatal) than you have jumps. In 90% of those cases the jumpers were jumping a at WL that I consdiered too aggressive.

Thats only the people who I know personally. I feel safe in saying that were scores more incidents involving jumpers I didn't know.

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old telesis containers so worn and thread-bare that lines could often be seen exposed, FXC mechanical AAD, a 290 F111 canopy with several thousand jumps on it! These canopies did not flare and I almost planted myself several times.

Look pal, just because you choose to jump at a DZ that cannot provide suitable gear for a range of different sized students, doesn't mean that aggressive donwsizing is a good idea.

You showed poor judgement in continuing to jump at such a DZ. How do you know that their lack of attention to the student gear doesn't extend to other areas of safety?

Furthermore, you showed additional poor judgement in aggressive downsizing just beacuse they didn't have anything better to jump. Thats the worst reason of all to downsize. Just beacuse it's worked for you SO FAR, doesn't mean it was or is a good idea.

Considering your inexperience, and your mulitple errors in judgement, my only hope is that other new jumpers will realize that your opinions are not based on any sort of facts, and NOT to follow your example.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Just wondering where this wingloading obsession has come from. Perhaps it would be more useful to think in terms of the type and quality of the gear. I started jumping a ("square") 190 ZP half way through my AFF consols - I weigh about 13.5 stone. My reasons for doing this were largely due to gear availability but I'm REALLY glad I did. The student gear scared the shit out of me - old telesis containers so worn and thread-bare that lines could often be seen exposed, FXC mechanical AAD, a 290 F111 canopy with several thousand jumps on it! These canopies did not flare and I almost planted myself several times. Now consider a docile ZP 190 with less than 100 jumps on it - this allowed me to land pretty much where I wanted to, the container was comfortable and secure and (here's the best bit) the canopy had an incredible amount of flare power - every single landing was gentle and on my feet. I felt so much safer under this wing that jumping instantly became more enjoyable for me. OK so the 190 will lose slightly more hight in a turn and turn a bit quicker but so what? As long as you know this it shouldn't be a problem. In my (albeit limited) personal experience the potential for serious injury was far greater with the worn out old student kit than with new, solid and slightly smaller gear. I stress again that this was a "square" 190 not some hot-rod elliptical thing but the wingloading figure would be the same for both. I have (intentionally) landed the 190 down wind on a hot day without a problem but I'm sure I'd have been badly hurt doing this on the student gear. Had to get that off my chest.;-)

You are getting the wrong lesson from your experience. The lesson should not be that a higher wingloading is better. The lesson is don't jump worn out canopies. They simply don't perform well.
The student canopies weren't landing you hard because they were big, but rather because they were old and worn out.

For Great Deals on Gear

[Remster 24]

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I stress again that this was a "square" 190

Ah yes... safe square canopies. Do you realize that a original Sabre 190 will dive easier then a Stileto 190?

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OK so the 190 will lose slightly more hight in a turn and turn a bit quicker but so what? As long as you know this it shouldn't be a problem.

Thats the big issue. When you start, you cannot know the performance envolope of your canopy. You just cant: its takes 100s of jump to really get a handle of it. And the problem is that you may just come to a point where you HAVE to turn low. People saying: "dont worry, I'll never turn low" are the ones that worry me.

Remster

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Ah yes... safe square canopies. Do you realize that a original Sabre 190 will dive easier then a Stileto 190?

Yes I did!

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Thats the big issue. When you start, you cannot know the performance envolope of your canopy. You just cant: its takes 100s of jump to really get a handle of it. And the problem is that you may just come to a point where you HAVE to turn low. People saying: "dont worry, I'll never turn low" are the ones that worry me.

They worry me to. Learning to flat turn and flare turning is very important, and IMO should be learned prior to getting an A license.

For Great Deals on Gear

[Remster 24]

Hey Chris, my post was obviously a relpy to the person you quoted, not you

Remster

[littlejohn 0]

from a packer's perspective i think all canopies should have a collapsible pilot chute but as one person already said check with the dz staff

death before dishonor

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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from a packer's perspective i think all canopies should have a collapsible pilot chute

Why?

[kelpdiver 2]

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1 stone = 14 pounds therefore :

13.5 x 14 + 22 = 211

211/190 = 1.11

Doh! Thanks for the correction.

And imo, that's a reasonable WL, and a very common one. I did stray as high as 1.2 in that 35-50 jump frame and found that to be over the edge of reasonable for me.

Others, as you see, prefer the 1.0 limit.

[blue_sky_chris 0]

Phew! Finally put those flames out! Well if nothing else your replies have made me stop to think and reflect - OK I realise that I did downsize way too quickly and should have made more jumps on 210s than I did - I know that now but back then I thought a 190 was a perfectly reasonable choice and none of the instructors present had any objections to me jumping it (all USPA or BPA rated AFFIs and/or canopy coaches and pro swoopers) and was given briefings and a whole bunch of excercises to do up high to help me get used to the canopy characteristics.

***
Learning to flat turn and flare turning is very important, and IMO should be learned prior to getting an A license.