nicknitro71 0 #26 May 16, 2005 QuoteStandard jumping practices were different back when it's design was new, ie everybody opened at 1000' or less. So, it was enginneered to open fast. Newer designs, are engineered to open slower, because the usual opening alitude went up to 2500' or higher This must be one of the funniest things I've ever read.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #27 May 16, 2005 Could you elaborate? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #28 May 16, 2005 OK, tell me where I went wrong Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #29 May 16, 2005 Dude - i think you need to check your figures......Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #30 May 16, 2005 QuoteOK, tell me where I went wrong It is exactly the opposite - people began to open higher because of new canopy designs. The opening speed isn't the only reason. Many of new canopy types are much more aggressive than the old designs – they loose the altitude quicker, especially in case of spinning malfunctions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #31 May 16, 2005 How about this... QuoteStandard jumping practices were different back when it's design was new, ie everybody opened at 1000' or less. So, it was enginneered to open fast. The miminum suggested opening altitudes were the same as they are now. 1000 feet was not the normal pulling altitude. Some Sabres opened fast because the manufacturer hadn't figured out how to make it open slow yet. That went for just about any manufacturer. People guickly started putting pocket sliders, and sliders with different dimensions to slow the openings down and make them more consistant.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #32 May 16, 2005 Hmm... How humbling, my bad. But, my point still is that in the earlier days of skydiving, before the advent of high performance canopies that take 900' feet to open, people use to regularly open below 2500. It's posts like this, see below, and conversations I've had with older jumps concerning Sabres and hard openings that I got my info from. Is there any source of documented information about regular practices durning the history of sport jumping? Quote > I seriously doubt that the canopy was designed to open hard! You have to remember the time period that canopy was released. It was during a time when most people jumped Cruislites or the equivalent, and after enough wear the fabric got very porous. That meant it didn't land well AND it snivelled forever. Also, people tended to open lower, around 2000 feet. Finally, very few people were jumping camera. All that added up to skydivers being more amenable to a firmer opening. After all, what sort of opening do you want - one like an old, worn out Cruislite or one like a brand new canopy? And how long a snivel do you really want if you regularly dump at 2000 feet (and occasionally at 1600)? It was a different time, and the idea of a good canopy is different than what it is today. PD realized this and changed the slider size after a few years to slow it down, but it still tends to open more firmly than the Spectre (or other intentionally snivelly canopies.) ... Do I owe beer for that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caspar 0 #33 May 16, 2005 Quote One just broke a guys neck in Titusville a couple of months ago. That one was packed by a packer. could someone please elaborate on thise one as it scared the hell out of me (almost sh@t myself!!!) when i read it!!! "When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #34 May 16, 2005 It's in the incidents forum. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1409537;search_string=titusville;#1409537 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #35 May 16, 2005 QuoteSome Sabres opened fast because the manufacturer hadn't figured out how to make it open slow yet. That went for just about any manufacturer. I've heard this is due to the fact that many of the first zero P canopies were simply existing canopy design built with the new material,with little re engineering. The latest generation of canopies has been built with over a decade worth of experience with ZP. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #36 May 16, 2005 Quotefirst zero P canopies were simply existing canopy design built with the new material,with little re engineering. Yes, I've heard it stated that the original Sabre and a PD 9 cell were identical. Could someone who's compared the 2 (rigger/owner) confirm or deny that (because I don't know, it's what I've heard several times). I have a PD 9 cell, and it's NEVER opened hard. It's not ragged out, either, it's got around 100-150 jumps total, so thay had a good F-111 design. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #37 May 16, 2005 Different canopy than the PD 9 cell.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caspar 0 #38 May 16, 2005 i was reading in the incident forum about the sabre related accident. someone mentioned that the way you stow your lines has a huge effect on whther you get spanked or not. how do you determine what is a too tight stow and what is too loose? by trying it and feeling the difference? what would you guys reccomend for types of bungy? (i know there are alot of different types/sizes but i dont know the difference between them..... thanks again for all the help.."When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #39 May 16, 2005 I just remembered, I had another harder than usual opening when I went back from a demo with dacron lines to my canopy with spectra lines. The large bands must have been stretched out from the big dacron lines, I noticed that the stows were a bit loose when packing it. When I jumped it, I guess it sort of line dumped. I use big bands and double stow them above the cascades and little bands and double stow them on the part of the lines below the cascades. Seems to work good, without hang up or line dump. Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #40 May 16, 2005 Quote Different canopy than the PD 9 cell. How so? Different planform, nose design, line trim, all of the above? Different brake settings? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #41 May 17, 2005 Don't let stories give you the shits about using the sabre caspar - its a perfectly good canopy. Seriously. Line stows should take 10-12lb of force before releasing the lines. Take a look at this great article by PD: http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/hrdopn.pdf That'll probably answer all of your questions and then some you didn't know you had. Glad to see you liked your first pack job - didn't slam you did it. You didn't even do anything with the nose of the canopy either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jannu 0 #42 May 17, 2005 I jump a sabre 150 DOM 91... before this I jumped a sabre 170 made in the same year. Yes.. I know it can open a bit hard but it can also be avoided... Pack it 50 times, see what's going on when it opens.. how long it takes, what shape, what is the slider doing etc etc... explore new ways of packing it... (of course try to follow the manufacturers packing instructions!!!) After jumping 240 or so jumps with a Sabre it doesn't surprise me anymore.. (knock on wood though ) Pro pack... When you make "a star" of the slider between the linegroups, pull the side of the slider closest to you out. Make it kind of a pocket so that it'll grab air the most.. before I lay it on the ground I roll the tail of the canopy.. say 6-9 times, very tight. Then... this might sound crazy... I change to trash-pack... I don't make the S-folds very neatly... I make em but don't spend more than 30 secs doing it. Also when I stash it into the d-bag, I won't be using a lot of time to make it very even and the stiches aligned... Seems that the worse I pack it, the softer it opens... wouldn't deploy below 500m (1700ft?) though if I packed like this... So it takes maybe 100-150 meters to open and fly, but it's nice to be able to look at it open instead of noticing it's already open Stowing the lines... I stow the locking bands/tubes quite tight... there's enough drag to open the bands if your pilot chute is in good condition. The rest of the bands I don't do really tight. Having the "locking stows" tight prevents line dump. Anyway, I'm not a rigger nor instructor... just jumped a sabre quite a many times and think I know what's going on with mine.. explore, try, learn, enjoy your openings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #43 May 17, 2005 QuoteYes.. I know it can open a bit hard but it can also be avoided... Pack it 50 times, see what's going on when it opens.. how long it takes, what shape, what is the slider doing etc etc... explore new ways of packing it... (of course try to follow the manufacturers packing instructions!!!) so what if your aorta detches from your heart on the first jump on it? then you are dead. this has happened more than once. if you have a canopy that opens hard hard then get rid of it. just coz a conopy is new doesn't mean it has to open hard try a crossfire they rule. just don't underload them."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #44 May 17, 2005 Quoteso what if your aorta detches from your heart on the first jump on it? then you are dead. this has happened more than once. I've never heard of this ever happening. Do you have a link or other verifiable source? It sounds more like something out of Bedtime for Skydivers. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EvilLurker 2 #45 May 17, 2005 Actually it HAS happened several times." Jumper spiralled under open canopy until impact " would be a good way to search for the incidents. Edit: Here's a couple: http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/35.shtml http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/31.shtml Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jannu 0 #46 May 18, 2005 I don't think a Crossfire would be a good canopy for someone who's just got off student gear... Here in Finland it's not even allowed to jump this kind of "high performance" canopy before you have 250 jumps... Also, by making mistakes when packing a xfire (slider not all the way up for example) you can/will get a hard opening... correct me if I'm wrong... Still I think there's no use to get rid of old Sabre... Get used to packing it the right way. I'm not scared opening my Sabre... Really.. I don't get your comment on aorta thingy.. You suggest that Sabres are life-threatening... I guess that's the most popular canopy at the moment.. again, correct me if I'm wrong... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #47 May 18, 2005 Quote Actually it HAS happened several times." Jumper spiralled under open canopy until impact " would be a good way to search for the incidents. Edit: Here's a couple: Those incidents weren't contributed to hard opening Sabres. One was a harness failure and the other was an apparent heart attack. The Sabre may open harder than presently produced canopies, but I've never heard of it opening so hard as to kill the jumper. And injuries caused on opening are not limited to Sabres, so it is more likely caused by packing technique or body position. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #48 May 18, 2005 QuoteAnd injuries caused on opening are not limited to Sabres, so it is more likely caused by packing technique or body position. And these kind of incidents are more frequent with some certain type of canopies. Why, oh why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 0 #49 May 18, 2005 QuoteQuoteAnd injuries caused on opening are not limited to Sabres, so it is more likely caused by packing technique or body position. And these kind of incidents are more frequent with some certain type of canopies. Why, oh why? Maybe because there simply are a LOT of sabre's around? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #50 May 18, 2005 Quote Maybe because there simply are a LOT of sabre's around? During the mid to late nineties, if the Sabre was not the most popular canopy around, it was definitely in the running. Everybody seemed to have one back then. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
rhys 0 #43 May 17, 2005 QuoteYes.. I know it can open a bit hard but it can also be avoided... Pack it 50 times, see what's going on when it opens.. how long it takes, what shape, what is the slider doing etc etc... explore new ways of packing it... (of course try to follow the manufacturers packing instructions!!!) so what if your aorta detches from your heart on the first jump on it? then you are dead. this has happened more than once. if you have a canopy that opens hard hard then get rid of it. just coz a conopy is new doesn't mean it has to open hard try a crossfire they rule. just don't underload them."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #44 May 17, 2005 Quoteso what if your aorta detches from your heart on the first jump on it? then you are dead. this has happened more than once. I've never heard of this ever happening. Do you have a link or other verifiable source? It sounds more like something out of Bedtime for Skydivers. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EvilLurker 2 #45 May 17, 2005 Actually it HAS happened several times." Jumper spiralled under open canopy until impact " would be a good way to search for the incidents. Edit: Here's a couple: http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/35.shtml http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/31.shtml Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jannu 0 #46 May 18, 2005 I don't think a Crossfire would be a good canopy for someone who's just got off student gear... Here in Finland it's not even allowed to jump this kind of "high performance" canopy before you have 250 jumps... Also, by making mistakes when packing a xfire (slider not all the way up for example) you can/will get a hard opening... correct me if I'm wrong... Still I think there's no use to get rid of old Sabre... Get used to packing it the right way. I'm not scared opening my Sabre... Really.. I don't get your comment on aorta thingy.. You suggest that Sabres are life-threatening... I guess that's the most popular canopy at the moment.. again, correct me if I'm wrong... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #47 May 18, 2005 Quote Actually it HAS happened several times." Jumper spiralled under open canopy until impact " would be a good way to search for the incidents. Edit: Here's a couple: Those incidents weren't contributed to hard opening Sabres. One was a harness failure and the other was an apparent heart attack. The Sabre may open harder than presently produced canopies, but I've never heard of it opening so hard as to kill the jumper. And injuries caused on opening are not limited to Sabres, so it is more likely caused by packing technique or body position. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #48 May 18, 2005 QuoteAnd injuries caused on opening are not limited to Sabres, so it is more likely caused by packing technique or body position. And these kind of incidents are more frequent with some certain type of canopies. Why, oh why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 0 #49 May 18, 2005 QuoteQuoteAnd injuries caused on opening are not limited to Sabres, so it is more likely caused by packing technique or body position. And these kind of incidents are more frequent with some certain type of canopies. Why, oh why? Maybe because there simply are a LOT of sabre's around? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #50 May 18, 2005 Quote Maybe because there simply are a LOT of sabre's around? During the mid to late nineties, if the Sabre was not the most popular canopy around, it was definitely in the running. Everybody seemed to have one back then. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
tso-d_chris 0 #44 May 17, 2005 Quoteso what if your aorta detches from your heart on the first jump on it? then you are dead. this has happened more than once. I've never heard of this ever happening. Do you have a link or other verifiable source? It sounds more like something out of Bedtime for Skydivers. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #45 May 17, 2005 Actually it HAS happened several times." Jumper spiralled under open canopy until impact " would be a good way to search for the incidents. Edit: Here's a couple: http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/35.shtml http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/31.shtml Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jannu 0 #46 May 18, 2005 I don't think a Crossfire would be a good canopy for someone who's just got off student gear... Here in Finland it's not even allowed to jump this kind of "high performance" canopy before you have 250 jumps... Also, by making mistakes when packing a xfire (slider not all the way up for example) you can/will get a hard opening... correct me if I'm wrong... Still I think there's no use to get rid of old Sabre... Get used to packing it the right way. I'm not scared opening my Sabre... Really.. I don't get your comment on aorta thingy.. You suggest that Sabres are life-threatening... I guess that's the most popular canopy at the moment.. again, correct me if I'm wrong... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #47 May 18, 2005 Quote Actually it HAS happened several times." Jumper spiralled under open canopy until impact " would be a good way to search for the incidents. Edit: Here's a couple: Those incidents weren't contributed to hard opening Sabres. One was a harness failure and the other was an apparent heart attack. The Sabre may open harder than presently produced canopies, but I've never heard of it opening so hard as to kill the jumper. And injuries caused on opening are not limited to Sabres, so it is more likely caused by packing technique or body position. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #48 May 18, 2005 QuoteAnd injuries caused on opening are not limited to Sabres, so it is more likely caused by packing technique or body position. And these kind of incidents are more frequent with some certain type of canopies. Why, oh why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #49 May 18, 2005 QuoteQuoteAnd injuries caused on opening are not limited to Sabres, so it is more likely caused by packing technique or body position. And these kind of incidents are more frequent with some certain type of canopies. Why, oh why? Maybe because there simply are a LOT of sabre's around? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #50 May 18, 2005 Quote Maybe because there simply are a LOT of sabre's around? During the mid to late nineties, if the Sabre was not the most popular canopy around, it was definitely in the running. Everybody seemed to have one back then. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
