smoke bombs

[nitrochute 2]

this is directed at anyone who has jumped with smoke. have you ever had a smoke bomb that turned out to be a dud?what caused it? also, what would be the ideal smoke duration ,and colors?

[Miami 0]

We have duds all the time...they just happen.
Duration is usually 60-120 seconds.
Normally we use red and yellow, sometimes green, with two per bracket to get a nice dense smoke during freefall.
Hope this helps...

Miami

[slotperfect 7]

My only experience is with US military smoke.

I have had duds, but rarely - I have no idea what causes them not to work.

Many years ago the Golden Knights experimented with different colors to see which one provided the most visibility for the spectators on the ground. Red was the best.

US Military smoke burns a little hotter or colder depending on the color. The most noticeable difference is white smoke, which burns VERY hot - too hot to wear on a smoke bracket.

Normal duration for red smoke was around 70 seconds.

There are other types of "cold" smoke, but I have never used it. Try PMing airtwardo - he is a current and very experienced demo jumper.

Arrive Safely

John

[airtwardo 6]

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have you ever had a smoke bomb that turned out to be a dud?what caused it? also, what would be the ideal smoke duration ,and colors?

Quote

Sounds dumb...
But believe it or not a lot of 'duds' are from
not pulling he pin right!

They have to be pulled 'crisply' at a 90 degree
angle from the hole they're in. Straighten the
cotter pin just prior to use, and pull straight out.

It doesn't take much of an angle to deform
the pin which can impede the hammer from
getting a full strike.
Look at the primer...if it's not dented,
then unscrew and check the fuse...
if it hasn't burned..reset the hammer and
try it again.

When you are reaching down to fire a smoke
mounted on a boot bracket, that 90 degree
angle can be a challenge.

Many other smoke malfunctions are caused
by moisture;

Being exposed to damp conditions like high
humidity make the compound harder to ignite.

With 'Cool Smokes' like the type available
through Para-Gear...
Storage is extremely important, the cardboard/plastic casing is porous
and sucks up moisture like a sponge.

The igniter is a friction match that doesn't put
out nearly as much 'spark' as a 'hammer & primer' like on M-18's.
A week of two of being kept in a humid
environment and the powder may be too
damp to start reliably.

Notice the disclaimer that no guarantees are
made at time of purchase.

I store any inventory of that type smoke in a
good quality camping cooler, in a cool dry place,
with a couple of those moisture absorbing bags thrown in on top.

M-18's:
Even though they are made to MilSpec,
you have to keep in mind what they were
designed for.
...one time throw away use.

Functionally cheap in other words.
You can drop them in water and they'll
work...THAT DAY!
Maybe not a month later.
The compound is for the most part sealed,
water proof tape on the bottom, a gasket on
the top. But again they are manufactured by
the lowest bidder.

Cheap materials keep the cost down, the
housing for the igniter system corrodes quickly,
as does the spring on the hammer pin.
That will cause a less than ideal strike on the
primer causing a malfunction.

There are several contractors that have made
M-18's over the years.
Some are considerably more reliable than others.
The actual smoke compound is essentially the
same as per contract reqs.

(available through the freedom of information
act for any jr. scientists that may want to
make their own)

But the igniter systems vary, relating to the reliability.

Lot number & date of manufacture are one
indicator as to the vendor, but another quick way
to check an M-18 is by unscrewing the igniter
and looking at the barrel of the fuse.
The least reliable have a paper covering on the bottom end of the barrel.
...next best have a metal cap covering the tube,
the best has a brown varnish type material slightly recessed.

The 3rd reason for a no-burn is age;

Again, proper storage will extend the reliable
useful life, but eventually the chemical compound degrades.

One thing I always do as a matter of course
with M-18's that are a few years old, is to
unscrew the igniter and push a flat head
screwdriver down into the bomb, scraping the
powder 6-8 times.
Greatly improves the odds it will light.

Don't pull the tape off the bottom and scrape,
you may damage the barrel of the fuse.

With the cardboard / plastic 'Cool Smokes',
age is an even more important factor....
they seem to degrade much faster even when
stored cool & dry.

Also...
the "OLD" cool smokes that were all cardboard
(paper) casings, with the black pull ring...
Put out more volume~

(cubic feet of smoke per second)

~than the current ones, but are no longer
made because the material was carcinogenic
to both the worker bees making it..
...and the crowd breathing it.
~Don't use 'em.~

And another word of caution...
M-18's have been reclassified under the
"Homeland Security Act"

You now must have a Class 3 usage
license/permit for explosives to legally fire them, and an explosives permit to transport and store them.
It's a federal offence just to have them in your home or car.
(I know of 2 jumpers now that have been sited)

We have the required licenses...
but because of the skyrocketing cost per unit
of M-18's, we contracted with a manufacturer
to make a specifically designed smoke
generator for skydiving demonstration
purposes.

The volume is greater than what's
commercially available and the way it's
fired circumvents the federal regulation.

As far as color...a vivid contrast is best,
depends on the background..sky.

Volume output...
The faster you're going the 'thinner' the
trail will be...As Miami Mike said, you'll
need 2 burning in freefall for a good effect.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mjosparky 3]

And that ladies and gentlemen is just about the most informative post you will ever see on the subject of "Demo smoke".

Good job Airtwardo.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[nitrochute 2]

actually with colored smoke bombs ,everything ive read of a technical nature says the higher the humidity,the denser the smoke will be.

[LouDiamond 1]

One of the major reason in the change in the law is based on the ingnition system of the M-18. The M-18 uses the M201A1 fuze.

b. Igniting Fuze. Igniting fuzes are designed for use with chemical hand grenades. They burn at high temperatures and ignite the chemical filler. The M201A1 is designed for use with the AN-M83HC white smoke grenade, the AN-M14 TH3 incendiary grenade, and the M18 colored smoke grenade. This fuze is interchangeable with any standard firing device. The time delay element is a powder train requiring 1.2 to 2 seconds to burn to the igniter. The igniter ignites the filler or a pyrotechnic starter with a violent burning action and expels the filler from the grenade body.

The M-18 smoke grenade it self is comprised as follows:

M18 Colored Smoke Hand Grenade. The following is a description of the M18 colored smoke hand grenade and its components .

(1) Body. The body has a sheet steel cylinder with an hole at the bottom. The hole allows smoke to escape when the grenade is ignited.

(2) Filler. The filler has 11.5 ounces of colored smoke mixture (red, yellow, green and violet).

(3) Fuze. The fuze is an M201A1.

(4) Weight. The grenade weighs 19 ounces.

(5) Safety clip. This grenade does not have a safety clip.

(6) Capabilities. The average soldier can throw this grenade 35 meters. It produces a cloud of colored smoke for 50 to 90 seconds.

(7) Color and markings. The grenade has an olive drab body with the top indicating the smoke color


The actual insides of the canister or the smoke is comprised of hardened life saver shapped disks with a thin cardboard separator between them from the top of the canister to the bottom.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[airtwardo 6]

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the higher the humidity, the denser the smoke will be.

Quote

True...
I was referring to the 'reliability' of the unit
itself when exposed to highly humid
and or hot conditions for an extended period
of time.

...A reason for it to be a 'Dud'.


Years ago I was living in San Diego,
you could go to Ocean Side..(USMC Base)
and buy M-18's from every Pawn Shop
around...for 3.00 to 5.00 a unit.

We'd burn 100 or so doing demos a year.

I had a gross or so stored in a
Non-Climate Controlled storage area.
Some still in the wood crates, some
just in the sealed cardboard container,
many just 'loose'.

Over time I got real good idea of the
effects poor storage had on them.

I started putting them in .50 Cal & 20MM
ammo cans...which slowed the effects
quite a bit.


Lou~

I'd heard from a friend working for
"The Company" that the reason for the
restriction was the stockpiling of dewat
frag shells bought at gun shows and through
the "Shotgun News" by U.S. residents of
questionable citizenship...


There was a fear the smoke fuse assembly
would be transferred over...



Attached PIC is of an electrically fired
civilian demo smoke. Higher volume &
duration than an M-18.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[darkwing 4]

I have had and witnessed failures. In some cases the igniter doesn't fire, and in others it fires, but the starter doesn't catch on. Either way the result is the same-- no smoke. That is another reason (besides visibility) to wear two smokes. If one fails, you still have smoke from the other.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

There was a fear the smoke fuse assembly
would be transferred over..

.

Sounds good but the fact of the matter is a smoke fuze body will not set off conventional Comp B explosives. It very well could set off black powder or an improvised mixture as it is basically a match. Only problem is that there are a million old gag "take a number" grenades and old grenade bodys/fuzes out there as we speak. Even if you filled the obvious hole in the grenade body , replaced the primer with a shotgun primer and re built the fuze itself, the overall effect of a black powder filled body would be less leathal than a home made pipe bomblet made from Home depot plumbing materials, black powder/match heads and either store bought or home made fuze cord.

The difference between a smoke fuze body and a actual grenade fuze body are quite different in appearance and in the chemical composition in them. BUT, I can see how someone could have a knee jerk reaction and ban them on that basis.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

In some cases the igniter doesn't fire, and in others it fires, but the starter doesn't catch on.

Quote

The 'paper' covered fuse barrel ends
as I described above are the most prone
to failure in my experience...
they are the 'oldest' type.

If you have smoke 'bodies' left over
(fuse didn't light the compound)
don't toss 'em.
They can be used with an electric match
to start, not as convenient but still...it's smoke!

As LouDiamond showed above, the actual
smoke compound that's made in the stacked
'life saver / doughnut' looking form are the
most recent types.
Those seem to light most consistently.

But...
not all the vendors manufactured using
that system. Some poured the chemical mix
onto a form that produced a single 'spool'
looking product.
(Vietnam era)
That kind malfunctions more often.

The flat headed screw driver trick of scraping
the hollow center of the 'spool' really works.

I've had smokes that didn't work 2-3 times
(changed fuses) until they were scraped up a
bit, then they burned with no problem.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[nitrochute 2]

so do you need the class 3 license to use or possess one of the superior brand type bomb with the pull wire?

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

so do you need the class 3 license to use or possess one of the superior brand type bomb with the pull wire?

***

No...

That firing mechanism is a type of
'friction match' for lack of a better term.

No 'Federal' law that I'm aware of against it,
but some local or state laws may address
the usage...

For example~

At certain times of the year *ANY* type of
'pyrotechnic device' gets a hard look in
California...

I've never had a problem...but then again
I haven't started any fires...YET!


The 'friction match' and 'electric match'
type smokes are not included in the
Homeland Security Act...
so far anyway.


***

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[bowlan 0]

the only type of m-18 that requires ATF licences are energentic compound products.
if the composition including fuse igniter formulas are of non entergentic these are classed as 1.4g
signal smoke and can be sold with out requiring a ATF licence.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

the only type of m-18 that requires ATF licences are energentic compound products.
if the composition including fuse igniter formulas are of non entergentic these are classed as 1.4g
signal smoke and can be sold with out requiring a ATF licence.

Because of addition to and tighter restrictions on the Homeland Security Act...

(unless they have been resend ed and I'm not aware, which could very well be the case.)

... there was an issue about the hammer and primer firing system that required the license.

The theory is, that a possible threat could result from someone buying hollow frag shell (sold as paper weights etc) and screwing in the M-18 firing device.

On the other hand I do see 'paint ball' smoke for sale on the Internet that 'appears' to have the same hammer firing system mas the M-18.

As I said, it very well 'may' have changed, but I know of two jumpers that were charged with federal violations because of the use of M-18's at a performance in 2005.

~it was 'tacked on' charges that were in addition to some 'other' serious offences, they were not specifically singled out and charged BECAUSE of using M-18s...but the charge 'was' made.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[bowlan 0]

cold smoke is nothing more than a term used to move a product.
trust me we produce smoke.
the compound only burns as cool as the magnesium carbonate will allow.
the casing is the key to cold smoke.
the actual compound can burn in a considered cold temp but the heat comes after burn out.
this is because most casted or pressed compounds have a core that enables the smoke compound to burn from the center out to the casing.
most smoke grains of any size require a core or the heat destroys the dye during the burn,when this happens you will see a lot of color in the begining of the burn and the color slowly fades out ferther threw the burn. baking soda is used to controle flare ups this is comon on china made smoke fountains.
2 grams of baking soda per,ounce of smoke comp stops the flare up and a few extra grams of magnesium carbonate will keep the inner temp down for the dyes to do what they are expected.
another note all cold burning smoke uses magnesium carbonat other wise there would be only a few seconds of color at the begining of the burn. magnesium carbonat is what causes smoke compounds to burn cool enough for the dyes to work,no mag,no color.
what stops the mag from spiting out during the burn that depends on the type of binder used in the smoke compound. old school compounds use sugar binders.
thes type bunder also works as a fuel during the burn and will not hold the mag from sputtering out with the smoke.
what will work is accetate binder,this is a plasting type binder and is non flamable so it will hold the mag together during the burn.
this keeps those hot ashes from burning threw your chute.
when you buy smoke try to get a msds sheet and read it,it should list the bunders used in that smoke,avoid sugar binders for your chutes sake.

[nocivus 0]

Hello everyone,

I know this is a really old post, but i was wondering if anyone has any general safety tips for using smoke canisters, like mount type and material, distance from foot, protection, wingsuit specific considerations, how hot it gets in freefall, etc.

Thanks in advance,
Pedro

[airtwardo 6]

nocivus

Hello everyone,

I know this is a really old post, but i was wondering if anyone has any general safety tips for using smoke canisters, like mount type and material, distance from foot, protection, wingsuit specific considerations, how hot it gets in freefall, etc.

Thanks in advance,
Pedro

It depends somewhat on the type of smoke canister you intend on using.

Military smoke is heavier than the cardboard commercial types and the bracket needs to be a little stronger / better, to be sure you don't lose it in free fall.

Minimize the snag hazards associated with the smoke and the bracket, gaffers tape over protruding edges helps.

Have a quick way to get it off of you and know how to use that in all the possible situations you make encounter...in the aircraft, in free-fall and under canopy.

My brackets are steel and keep the smoke generator about an inch away from my boot...it can hold up to three bombs.

Wear it on your left foot as you deploy from the right side & make sure you are rock stable starting & through the deployment process.

Any specific questions?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~