Jumpmunki 0 #1 December 21, 2004 im' looking for a chart of all the different canopies out there and what performance bands they fit into such as. VX, velo, fx sabre2, pilot, safire 2 sabre1, blah blah etc is there such a thing around for all of the different canopies and manafacturers out there? i'm looking at a different canopy to my current one but want to up performance but chose without having to demo 5 different canopies.... cheers in advance Wayne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vdschoor 0 #2 December 21, 2004 Well.. although I see your point, think about it this way.. You want a new motorcycle that's more high performance, you can choose between a Honda CBR 900 Suzuki GSX-R 1000 Yamaha R-1 All the performance numbers are known for these motorcycles, even how they compare to one another.. still.. when you go out and buy one, you buy the one that's most comfortable to you right? Just my 2 cts.. try before you buy!! Iwan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #3 December 21, 2004 Psst... as we talked about in the other thread there is SO much more that you need to get out of your other canopy before you need to switch sizes or even planforms. The potential in your canopy is'nt even being close to being unleashed. I think its the Sweeds that have a chart that says experience levels needed to jump certian canopies, but their chart only lists popular current canopies and not a lot of the older, less popular canopies. For instance I seem to remember it listing the Samuari but not the Jedei. They also have some odd things like a Spectre being a higher level canopy then an original Sabre.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #4 December 21, 2004 Quote I think its the Sweeds that have a chart that says experience levels needed to jump certian canopies It's the Dutch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #5 December 21, 2004 Wayne, Here is Brian Germain's recommended Wing loading chart. I know that is not what you asked for but give it a look see. You are a little over the recommended with you present canopy and the next size down is a 135 I believe. That would put you at 1.4 with under 200 jumps. It doesn't sound like much but it is one large step. Not a flame, just something to consider. Sparky Wingloading / Number of Jumps 1.0 / <100 1.1 / 100-199 1.2 / 200-299 1.3 / 300-399 1.4 / 400-499 1.5 / 500-599 1.6 / 600-699 1.7 / 700-799 1.8 / 800-899 1.9 / 900-999 2.0 / 1000+My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #6 December 21, 2004 That it!! Ok, on that chart they show the Flight concepts Pro series as being a Cat4 canopy but the Sabre as a Cat 1... guess what canopy FC was trying to compete against with their Pro Series? The Sabre. I like a lot of the breakdown for the jump numbers. Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #7 December 21, 2004 That's because the original Sabre is being used as student canopies at one or 2 dz's here. The chart will be somewhat revised soon, too. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumpmunki 0 #8 December 21, 2004 i still have my own opinions on jump numbers not being a true reflection of peoples real skillsets. ..................... but that is a total flame thread waiting to happen, i didn't mention anything about changing size, just shape. thanks everyone for your advice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #9 December 21, 2004 Quotei still have my own opinions on jump numbers not being a true reflection of peoples real skillsets. And where have I heard that before............My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #10 December 21, 2004 Correct me if I am wrong, but you were asking for?.. A chart comparing things like: Opening characteristics Toggle pressure Quickness of turns Loss of altitude during various types of turns Reaction to turbulence etc. If so, the answer is basically no. Some of this information can be obtained by reading reviews of canopies once you have narrowed down your choices, but a good overall view of most of the canopies doesn't exist. Of course if there was such a chart, all of these characteristics would by their very nature be evaluated subjectively since there is very little instrumentation available to objectively test these characteristics. Much of it would be simply an experienced jumper/reviewer's opinion. That being said, such a chart would be very useful, at least to eliminate certain "classes" of parachutes for consideration when changing canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #11 December 21, 2004 Canopy comparisons are so subjective and bias that they are useless. 999 out of 1000, whatever somebody has they will tell you is the best. I remember an ad the Precision ran last year that did exactly that - compared their canopies to others out there. According to that comparison, the Xaso 21 is a far superior canopy to the Velocity in every way. Take that for what you will. You can broadly categorize canopies, but even doing that you will have naysayers. For example, I would put the Crossfire in a category different (above) the Stiletto, but I guarantee you will find Stiletto pilots who will say the Stiletto is a higher performing canopy than the Crossfire. Rhino thinks his Crossfire2 out performs a Xaos 21, etc. Short answer - no, you will not find an objective comparison. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #12 December 21, 2004 Quotei still have my own opinions on jump numbers not being a true reflection of peoples real skillsets. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And where have I heard that before............ My six year old has an opinion about everything. Many of them are based on faulty logic, and have no merit of any kind. Edit- I had another, relevent, thought. Wouldn't the need for such a chart indicate a lack of knowledge? Wouldn't said knowledge be crucial for forming an opinion? Rhetorical questions, all of them.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #13 December 21, 2004 Quote Edit- I had another, relevent, thought. Wouldn't the need for such a chart indicate a lack of knowledge? Wouldn't said knowledge be crucial for forming an opinion? Rhetorical questions, all of them.... Is that like saying... If you knew what the canopies could do you might be ready but since you don't even know that you don't have the knowledge and therfore couldn't have the skill to use a canopy that up untill now you knew nothing about and hencforth how can you have an opinion on what jump numbers mean regarding ability to fly any given canopy? Not posing this directly to anyone just wondering if that sorta restates the last point?~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumpmunki 0 #14 December 21, 2004 this has gone totally the wrong way i expected it too, i was looking for a chart that placed canopies into performance groups. i wasn't looking for a cocky lecture about my opinion which i think is well informed someone with 500 hop and pops from 8 grand, concentrating on the CREW and Canopy Piloting skills is going to have a completely different skill set to someone with 500 freefalls concentrating on FS, opening at 3 grand, then landing .... i don't think that is an ill informed opinion ... kind of add's up don't you think? sometimes i look back at things i've posted and think they could have been put better.. but even if they have been put as best as people can, people just read there own thing into it anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #15 December 22, 2004 Yes, and perhaps you need to read all the responses you have had - at least three have said that no such chart exists and given reasons for why. I'm tempted to go ahead and try, but like I said earlier, it would only be my opinion, and I know others would step up and tell me I'm wrong (which I'm ok with). More examples: some think the Vengance is a better/higher performing canopy than the Stiletto, others say no. Some think the Cobalt is a better/higher performing canopy than the Nitro, others say no. Some people (OK, only one person) think the Onyx will outperform the VX, Velo, and Xaos 27, everybody else on the planet thinks it's a piece of shit... It can't be done. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #16 December 22, 2004 Quotesomeone with 500 hop and pops from 8 grand, concentrating on the CREW and Canopy Piloting skills is going to have a completely different skill set to someone with 500 freefalls concentrating on FS, opening at 3 grand, then landing Both jumpers only have 500 jumps in the end. If you factor in the concept of AFF, plus downsizing, your net experience on any one wing will be limited to maybe 200 or 300 jumps. You need to understand that this a drop in the bucket. As an example, I know a PST competitor who did 60 some hop n pops in a couple days prepping for a competition. This was in addition to the 20 some jumps he does every week at the DZ. He's planning on spending a month in Perris before the first meet this year, and plans on doing 250 or 300 training jumps in that time. This is a guy who can form his own opinions, contrary to popular beleif, and expect to be taken seriously (interestingly enough, his opinions are inline with the majority). I'm not discounting your enthusiasm or accomplishments thus far, but keep in mind the perspective that your limited experience and exposure gives you. You don't need to be as dedicated as the PST guy, but you need to realize that if you aren't you need to slow down, and cool your jets. I had 1500 jumps, and 3 or 4 years jumping before I could even form an opinion that made any sense. Another 3 or 4 years and 1500 jumps later, I saw that I was little off back then, and had alot to learn. Another couple years later, I've got a new perspective, different than the first two. What's interesting is that even though I have become a much better pilot, going faster and further, and at higher WL than ever, my views have become more and more conservative as time goes by. Why do you think that is? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #17 December 22, 2004 Quotethis has gone totally the wrong way i expected it too, i was looking for a chart that placed canopies into performance groups. i wasn't looking for a cocky lecture about my opinion which i think is well informed Just because you didn't get the answer you wanted, doesn't mean you didn't get the correct response. I tell my six year old, 'Anytime you ask a question, you may get a 'yes' and you may get a 'no'. Don't ask if you're not ready to hear either one'. For an adult I would add an 'other' to the yes or no options, but hold fast on being ready to hear any of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumpmunki 0 #18 December 22, 2004 i agree with you there dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
