johnmatrix 21 #1 January 19, 2011 Howdy, I've been reading about a couple of reported incidents here where people have had main risers get stuck under flaps for various reasons and thought I'd mention this similar story. The following is only a story related to me by a jumper I spoke to for about five minutes recently, and a couple of observations of mine about it. Sorry there is not much more detail: Jumper tells me that a few months ago he deployed his main and had a mal (more on that later). He cutaway and deployed his reserve yet his main remained snagged somehow on the container, he dragged the main all the way until landing but walked away un-injured. Upon landing he found that one of the main risers had snagged on the reserve container. The rig he was jumping was a Vector 3, he said the left hand riser had snagged on a piece of material exposed on the bottom of the reserve container. I have attached a picture of my own Vector 3, with this feature indicated, it's essentially a tiny hole with about enough room to wiggle your finger into. On my own container you'll see there are slinks. The container the other jumper was using at the time I spoke to him had rapide links sheathed in a soft plastic housing that came up a little bit above the top of the link. My container is a V353 (sized for a 190) and the other jumper's container looked sized for a 170, so I suspect the reserve container was slightly shorter than mine, which would allow the main risers to extend further down the side of it when packed. In the pic attached, I'm pulling at the lines from the right hand side to bring the risers down as far as they could conceivably go when packed. I didn't get any more out of the jumper involved and didn't verify that it was the rapide link that was snagged, but assuming that it was the rapide link that somehow got snagged in that little gap of material I'd also assume there would be virtually no chance of this happening with slinks. Does that sound like a feasible scenario? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 1 #2 January 19, 2011 So where is the horseshoe story?Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #3 January 19, 2011 You don't know for sure what happened to this other guy, or exactly what gear configuration he uses...but you're asking if your slinks will prevent the same thing? I can't tell if your over-thinking the problem or under-thinking the solution. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnmatrix 21 #4 January 19, 2011 I'd just never heard of a riser getting caught on that particular flap of the container and thought someone might be interested. As for the horseshoe, isn't that what it's called when the canopy snags somewhere on the jumper? Sorry if I used the wrong terminology. Don't mind me, I am slightly anal retentive about these sorts of things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #5 January 19, 2011 Your SLinks tabs don't appear to be tacked either. At least as best as I can tell/see in your picture. Just FWIW - if they're not, you may want to look into for yourself too is all. Sorry for the "hijack" folks. Feel free to carry on. Blue Skies, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnmatrix 21 #6 January 19, 2011 QuoteYour SLinks tabs don't appear to be tacked either. Thanks, you mean just tacked in place so the tab doesn't rotate out of the riser? I'm reading some more threads and have found some references to lines snagging on the reserve packtray with some packjobs so my essay above may have been unnecessary.... anyway, it's there now, FWIW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #7 January 19, 2011 Yup. ...And I dunno. I think your anecdotal additional "story" still has merit / is of interest too. It appears as though (also in your picture) there is a small crease in the reserve-bottom pack-tray that forms the top of the main container tray, which is what is causing that "opening". I don't think I've ever considered that either, previously, a potential snag-point. That crease does not seem to exist on either my Infinity, or either of my Javelins. So - by all means, as I mentioned - apologies for the distraction, and no worries - please, carry on. Blue Skies, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #8 January 20, 2011 QuoteSo where is the horseshoe story? "...yet his main remained snagged somehow on the container,....Upon landing he found that one of the main risers had snagged on the reserve container. " Right there.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #9 January 20, 2011 QuoteAs for the horseshoe, isn't that what it's called when the canopy snags somewhere on the jumper? Yes, you are correct. Quote Sorry if I used the wrong terminology. No, you did not use the wrong terminology. QuoteDon't mind me, I am slightly anal retentive about these sorts of things. This is a good thing.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #10 January 20, 2011 Since he cut away, and it was really only 'still attached' at one point... wouldn't that be more of a streamer than a horse shoe? Say you have a PC wrapped around your foot, it's a horse shoe until you chop it...once you chop it, the incident report will read you deployed into a streamer. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 1 #11 January 20, 2011 QuoteQuoteSo where is the horseshoe story? "...yet his main remained snagged somehow on the container,....Upon landing he found that one of the main risers had snagged on the reserve container. " Right there. He said the guy had some type of malfunction.He cut it away and the main riser had snagged the reserve container. How is that a hores shoe? http://www.dropzone.com/safety/emergencies/emergency_canopy_malfunctions.shtml Horseshoe This malfunction can result from bad maintenance, failure to check equipment and incompatible canopy/container systems. It can happen when the locking pin or ripcord is dislodged from the closing loop, allowing the bagged canopy to escape before you have removed the pilot chute from its stowage pocket. The horseshoe can occur if you tumble during the deployment sequence, allowing the pilot chute to catch on your foot, your arm, or some other part of your body, but these are rare occurrences today. Another possibility is a poor launch of a pilot chute from your container, allowing it to fall back into your “burble” (the partial vacuum behind you) where it can dance around and snag on something, preventing it from properly deploying. Improper hand deploy procedures can lead to the pilot chute being caught on your arm. Horse Shoe The danger of a horseshoe malfunction is that a pulled reserve may tangle with the horse-shoed main as it tries to deploy. If you experience a horseshoe, and you are using a hand deployment technique, pull the main’s hand deploy pilot chute immediately. Then, and even if you can’t pull the main hand deploy pilot chute, execute a breakaway and deploy the reserve. Chances are that there will be enough drag on the lines and canopy to separate the risers from their attachment points and present only a single line of “garbage” for the reserve to clear (rather than a horseshoed main). At least thats what I thought a horseshoe is.Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #12 January 20, 2011 Quote Since he cut away, and it was really only 'still attached' at one point... wouldn't that be more of a streamer than a horse shoe? Say you have a PC wrapped around your foot, it's a horse shoe until you chop it...once you chop it, the incident report will read you deployed into a streamer. Ding ding ding! Correct! A "horseshoe" requires two connecting points, so that the canopy blows above the jumper in a U-shape between the two attachment points, and thus the U-shape gives it the similarity in shape to a horseshoe. Next thing you know, they'll be calling a step-through a "Mae West". A Mae West is a result of a line-over, which creates two bulges in the canopy, giving it a the appearance of a large bra, reminiscent of the well endowed actress Mae West... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liftedtitan 0 #13 January 20, 2011 Quote Next thing you know, they'll be calling a step-through a "Mae West". A Mae West is a result of a line-over, which creates two bulges in the canopy, giving it a the appearance of a large bra, reminiscent of the well endowed actress Mae West... I thought this was called a Chevy, or a bowtie. Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #14 January 20, 2011 Quote Quote Since he cut away, and it was really only 'still attached' at one point... wouldn't that be more of a streamer than a horse shoe? Say you have a PC wrapped around your foot, it's a horse shoe until you chop it...once you chop it, the incident report will read you deployed into a streamer. Ding ding ding! Correct! A "horseshoe" requires two connecting points, so that the canopy blows above the jumper in a U-shape between the two attachment points, and thus the U-shape gives it the similarity in shape to a horseshoe. Next thing you know, they'll be calling a step-through a "Mae West". A Mae West is a result of a line-over, which creates two bulges in the canopy, giving it a the appearance of a large bra, reminiscent of the well endowed actress Mae West... So what do you call it before he cutaway...a horseshoe. Your point that once it's cutaway it's no longer a horseshoe is all well and good but meaningless. The canopy is still connected to you and you'll have to deploy your reserve into that "streamer". 1.If that's a streamer, what do you call that high-speed, wadded up ball of shit that doesn't open after normal deployment where you're hanging under it by your risers? 2. Do you teach your students: If you have a horseshoe pull your cutaway handle. Now you have a streamer and here's how you handle that...I really don't think that's a good idea. Special note: John, you know "Mae West" is not politically correct these days, eh? Showing your age, you are. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #15 January 20, 2011 QuoteHe said the guy had some type of malfunction.He cut it away and the main riser had snagged the reserve container. How is that a hores shoe? The guy cutaway because he had a horseshoe. Point of contact #1: 3-ring release (the only legitimate point). Point of contact #2: Riser/lines caught on rig. The horseshoe didn't mysteriously happen after he cutaway. QuoteHorseshoe This malfunction can result from bad maintenance, failure to check equipment and incompatible canopy/container systems. It can happen when the locking pin or ripcord is dislodged from the closing loop, allowing the bagged canopy to escape before you have removed the pilot chute from its stowage pocket. This is only 1 type of horseshoe...a premature deployment. QuoteThe horseshoe can occur if you tumble during the deployment sequence, allowing the pilot chute to catch on your foot, your arm, or some other part of your body, but these are rare occurrences today. And this an example of others. Note that they only mention PC...the horseshoe mal also includes canopy, lines, risers...anything part of the canopy system. QuoteAnother possibility is a poor launch of a pilot chute from your container, allowing it to fall back into your “burble” (the partial vacuum behind you) ...and this is a PC hesitation....which can lead to... Quotewhere it can dance around and snag on something, preventing it from properly deploying. ...which is now a horseshoe. QuoteThe danger of a horseshoe malfunction is that a pulled reserve may tangle with the horse-shoed main as it tries to deploy. All too true...a real nightmare. It's a crap shoot. QuoteIf you experience a premature deployment horseshoe, and you are using a hand deployment technique, pull the main’s hand deploy pilot chute immediately. Then, and even if you can’t pull the main hand deploy pilot chute, execute a breakaway and deploy the reserve. Made it more specific to the situation they are addressing. QuoteChances are that there will be enough drag on the lines and canopy to separate the risers from their attachment points and present only a single line of “garbage” for the reserve to clear (rather than a premature deployment horseshoed main). IBID QuoteAt least thats what I thought a horseshoe is. And you would be partially correct but please realize that there are more than one type of horseshoe mal all characterized by "more than one point of contact."My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 262 #16 January 20, 2011 An issue in how to define this incident is that we don't know specifically when the snag happened. Was it "just a mal" and then the riser snagged on the reserve pack tray during the cutaway? Or, more likely, was the mal caused by the riser snagging on the reserve container, before the cutaway? Assuming the latter is true, then the jumper was connected by both the snagged riser, and at the 3 rings. Technically that's 2 points of connection and thus a horseshoe. However, we don't usually use the term horseshoe for that sort of non-freefall situation, also one where there's basically no slack between the two connection points. So it is and isn't a horseshoe. "Entanglement" story perhaps? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 1 #17 January 20, 2011 So if somebody tumbles during deployment and gets their leg tangeled in the lines and is hanging upside down under an open canopy that would be a horseshoe?Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #18 January 20, 2011 There are two ways to look at it. I don't know which should be the "correct" interpretation. First, there is the visual appearance of the problem. A horseshoe mal was named for the shape of the malfunction, and that shape was that of a horseshoe with the opening facing down. It went from the jumper up to an arch of equipment above the jumper, and back down to something else that was but should not have been attached to the jumper. By this definition, I wouldn't call the event of this story a horseshoe. But the other way to look at it is by the nature of the problem that results, that being that a simple cutaway does not let the main leave the jumper, and the chance for an entanglement with a deploying reserve is great. By that definition, this is a horseshoe. We can call it what we like. Maybe we should choose a new name. How about we just call it "your shit is snagged and will not leave without more help" malfunction? A "shit snag" for short. Then we can focus on something other than the semantics of the name, which really doen't matter a whole lot in the first place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #19 January 20, 2011 Quote Quote Next thing you know, they'll be calling a step-through a "Mae West". A Mae West is a result of a line-over, which creates two bulges in the canopy, giving it a the appearance of a large bra, reminiscent of the well endowed actress Mae West... I thought this was called a Chevy, or a bowtie. I prefer the imagery of a Mae West, but then, we probably shouldn't be distracted by such thoughts when dealing with a malfunction. It would be a lot easier to cut-away from a bowtie then from a large pair of boobs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #20 January 20, 2011 Quote Special note: John, you know "Mae West" is not politically correct these days, eh? Showing your age, you are. Sexy babes are always correct, politically or otherwise, in my life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnmatrix 21 #21 January 20, 2011 Quote An issue in how to define this incident is that we don't know specifically when the snag happened. Was it "just a mal" and then the riser snagged on the reserve pack tray during the cutaway? Or, more likely, was the mal caused by the riser snagging on the reserve container, before the cutaway? Quote My idea was that he deployed the main and the riser snagged under the pack tray. Call it what you like, I was just wondering if anyone considered that little piece of material there to be a snag point. Should I start a poll to see what the name of the thread should be changed to? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #22 January 20, 2011 QuoteSo if somebody tumbles during deployment and gets their leg tangeled in the lines and is hanging upside down under an open canopy that would be a horseshoe? Yep.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #23 January 20, 2011 Quote My idea was that he deployed the main and the riser snagged under the pack tray. Call it what you like, I was just wondering if anyone considered that little piece of material there to be a snag point. Should I start a poll to see what the name of the thread should be changed to? Yes, that junction where the reserve tray meets the back in the main tray has been a potential snag point. Some snags actually ripped the reserve tray off at those corners. Some rig manufacturers fixed that by closing up that corner either with an added piece of material or stitching closer to the corner so that lines couldn't get snagged by the corner of the reserve tray.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #24 January 20, 2011 Quote Quote Special note: John, you know "Mae West" is not politically correct these days, eh? Showing your age, you are. Sexy babes are always correct, politically or otherwise, in my life. I always preferred "tits up" but that comes with its own double-meaning. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #25 January 20, 2011 QuoteTechnically that's 2 points of connection and thus a horseshoe. Right QuoteHowever, we don't usually use the term horseshoe for that sort of non-freefall situation, Not sure what you mean by non-freefall situation. Do you mean it's no longer freefall because the PC was deployed? Quotealso one where there's basically no slack between the two connection points. "No slack between" is not a consideration. If the points are tight it's one thing and if the points are flapping in the breeze it's another? How much distance away from the 3-rings must the snag point be before it becomes a horseshoe? QuoteSo it is and isn't a horseshoe. Difference of opinion. Quote"Entanglement" story perhaps? Yes, we could come up with a name for every different snag point. I just prefer to keep it simple. Two or more points of contact = horseshoe. You guys can call anything whatever you like....I'll not argue with your POV except when you confuse youngsters reading the forums by coming up with multiple names for the same mal when handling them is the same regardless of what you call it. I elect to stick with Horseshoe.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
