Intervention Participation Refusal

[Nataly 38]

I'm sorry to hear about his reaction but from my own experience with confronting my dad I can't say I'm surprised... Denial is a powerful thing - rest assured if he really didn't have a problem he would have no reason to be so offended/angry by what you said.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[swoopdaddy 0]

I am in recovery so I thought I would chime in more for my recovery than anything else. Being an addict/alcoholic is a disease. To recover, or want help, a person has to want help. Usually that moment comes when the addict reaches their bottom. As described earlier, bottom is a general term used to describe a personal set of circumstances that become so unbearable that anything is better. Sadly, for some, bottom is death. For others the bottom is the final straw which opens them to help. Unfortunately, until an addict/alcoholic reaches their bottom they will not look to change their life despite the damage they may cause to themselves or others. So, as my sponsor told me, don't deny an addict/alcoholic their bottom. The best you can do is get yourself and other out of the way. That is a good first step to providing a wake up call.

The disease is unlike anything you can imagine. I knew I was killing myself and just could not stop. I could not function or even stop shaking without a drink. In the end it was either death or getting help, and I didn't want to die. The analogy that comes to mind is this, you can describe what a skydive is like to someone whose never jumped, but they really don't "know" until they make a jump. The same can be said about addiction, you really can't understand how powerless you are as an addict/alcoholic unless you are an addict/alcoholic.

There is some good news, the truth is no one can make an addict/alcoholic get help. If they don't want it they won't accept it. However, once an addict/alcoholic decides they are powerless and life is unmanageable and they don't want to take drugs or drink, decide to accept help and learn a new way, no one can make them go back.

I thank God everyday for my sobriety. It only took me 30 years of drinking to realize there was a better way. Good luck!

[davjohns 1]

I'm reading what you wrote. I have to disagree with your assessment. Deep down, I think he's the same dick he is on the outside.

No good deed goes un-punished. Sorry.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

Nataly

I'm sorry to hear about his reaction but from my own experience with confronting my dad I can't say I'm surprised... Denial is a powerful thing - rest assured if he really didn't have a problem he would have no reason to be so offended/angry by what you said.

I should've known it would go south really quickly. 25 years ago one of my coworkers, whose opinion I really respected, asked me what I was doing with such an abrasive asshole (they knew each other professionally). I don't remember what I said but looks like he's been a prick from way back and I just didn't see it back then. Probably youthful naivete.

I'm torn about deleting him from my Facebook so I don't have to see anymore posts of parties and dinners and stuff like that. I probably should.

Always be kinder than you feel.

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

swoopdaddy

I am in recovery so I thought I would chime in more for my recovery than anything else. Being an addict/alcoholic is a disease. To recover, or want help, a person has to want help. Usually that moment comes when the addict reaches their bottom. As described earlier, bottom is a general term used to describe a personal set of circumstances that become so unbearable that anything is better. Sadly, for some, bottom is death. For others the bottom is the final straw which opens them to help. Unfortunately, until an addict/alcoholic reaches their bottom they will not look to change their life despite the damage they may cause to themselves or others. So, as my sponsor told me, don't deny an addict/alcoholic their bottom. The best you can do is get yourself and other out of the way. That is a good first step to providing a wake up call.

The disease is unlike anything you can imagine. I knew I was killing myself and just could not stop. I could not function or even stop shaking without a drink. In the end it was either death or getting help, and I didn't want to die. The analogy that comes to mind is this, you can describe what a skydive is like to someone whose never jumped, but they really don't "know" until they make a jump. The same can be said about addiction, you really can't understand how powerless you are as an addict/alcoholic unless you are an addict/alcoholic.

There is some good news, the truth is no one can make an addict/alcoholic get help. If they don't want it they won't accept it. However, once an addict/alcoholic decides they are powerless and life is unmanageable and they don't want to take drugs or drink, decide to accept help and learn a new way, no one can make them go back.

I thank God everyday for my sobriety. It only took me 30 years of drinking to realize there was a better way. Good luck!

Thank you. Your sobriety is a great thing! Thank you for the advice. I've decided to get myself out of the way and not get myself caught up in his clustereff. I'm doneeeeeeee. D-U-N done!!

Always be kinder than you feel.

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

davjohns

I'm reading what you wrote. I have to disagree with your assessment. Deep down, I think he's the same dick he is on the outside.

No good deed goes un-punished. Sorry.

I honestly believe you're correct. I was thinking about that today. He is a DICK to the highest order to behave like he did with me.

I just "unfriended" him as well so I don't have to see the trainwreck unfold any longer.

My health and no stress is more important.

Always be kinder than you feel.

[BillyVance 34]

LuckyMcSwervy

***I'm reading what you wrote. I have to disagree with your assessment. Deep down, I think he's the same dick he is on the outside.

No good deed goes un-punished. Sorry.

I honestly believe you're correct. I was thinking about that today. He is a DICK to the highest order to behave like he did with me.

I just "unfriended" him as well so I don't have to see the trainwreck unfold any longer.

My health and no stress is more important.

I would have told him to go ahead and drink himself to an early death if he wants to leave his son without a father. And leave it at that. Fuck that shitbag.

Thank you for trying to care. Just can't help some people unfortunately.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[skygypsie 2]

* swoopdaddy *
I so, so applaud you & thank you so much for putting it into that perspective.
For me personally, it was exactly what I had to read to continue to try to understand what my sister is going through.
Thank you again. I wish you continued success in your recovery.

* LuckyMcSwervy *
Thank you for starting the thread !

* Wendy P *
My sister was sentenced to 1 year prison, 3 years probation.
Her sentence began immediately...no get out of jail free card for her this time.
Hopefully, it will change & save her life.

~ Blessings & BlueSkies ~

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

Actually, I feel horrible for starting this thread. I don't like that this subject made some old memories or issues or current struggles come to the front of someone's mind. I don't like people to be in pain in their hearts or minds.

I thought it would be a thread of more lighthearted advice and I got the bonus plan. It was quite revealing and extremely brave to discuss a lot of the things we shared. Everything all of you said is so damn spot on it's scary but also comforting to know I'm doing the right thing.

I know it may sound corny to some of you who don't believe in the big guy in the sky (God, not a skydiver ), but I always keep friends in my prayers. After reading this, I'm praying extra, extra hard for all of you and the things that may be troubling your minds and your loves ones.

Group hug!!

Always be kinder than you feel.

[skygypsie 2]

This one doesn't find prayer or acknowledgment of The Big Guy corny, at all

Big Hugs & again thanks for giving the opportunity for some of us to air out ~

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Actually, I feel horrible for starting this thread. I don't like that this subject made some old memories or issues or current struggles come to the front of someone's mind. I don't like people to be in pain in their hearts or minds.

I thought it would be a thread of more lighthearted advice and I got the bonus plan. It was quite revealing and extremely brave to discuss a lot of the things we shared. Everything all of you said is so damn spot on it's scary but also comforting to know I'm doing the right thing.

You should not feel guilty about this thread. Substance abuse and addiction is part of the human experience. It is a good reminder to some and a chance to voice their success to others.
Like I said in PM you tend to lead with your heart. But don’t forget to save some for yourself.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Nataly 38]

davjohns

No good deed goes un-punished. Sorry.

^^^THIS^^^

But hey... It says a lot about you that you cared enough to stick your neck out... Unfortunately, some people do not want or think they need any help.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[craigbey 0]

Glad to hear that you're stepping away from the path of destruction this guy is creating.

Just a word of caution about 'half-measures'... there are people out there who struggle with the disease of addiction and find some way(s) to cope while avoiding the chemical or other triggers that lead to damaging behaviors. They may find a geographical solution, change their name, get a new job, get married, etc. and appear to have 'gotten it together'. That is dangerous territory for the addict and those around him/her. Be wary.

I know a couple of people who have employed such measures as a temporary fix, but their delusion came crashing down later and they hit a new and even lower 'bottom', often causing even more pain and grief.

If this guy does get into a program, there may be a time when he wants to reach out to you to say he is sorry (make amends). You probably know this, but I'll say it anyway ... your participation should not be necessary for his recovery to work. If he does find it necessary to reach out to you, you are not obligated in any way.

And some food for thought to those who think conquering addiction requires avoiding the triggers 'at all costs' ...

That may be true for some addicts and it can be fairly easy to change the people and places in their life to minimize temptation while they are (hopefully) actively engaged in an ongoing recovery program. But eating disorders can't be treated in the same way.

My sister has been battling anorexia for 35+ years. Food is not the enemy, and yet it can be a trigger for people with eating disorders. We all have to eat, so the struggle takes on a completely new dimension.

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

Thank you. I've deleted him from Facebook, blocked his numbers on my cell thru my service provider and will do whatever else I end up needing to do to make sure he doesn't try to have contact with me. I honestly don't think he'll ever reach a "low" that's low enough for him to ever step away from his lifestyle. That said, he threatened to mess with me and my career and that's a special kind of evil in my book. I was thinking today that if my Dad had been alive and I'd mentioned what this guy said to me about MF this, C that, threatened my job by bringing law enforcement into the mix because I cared to try to get him some kind of support and help, well, my Dad would've driven right over to his house and beat him to a pulp. My Dad never liked this guy anyway. Wouldn't have been the first time he did that to a guy that bothered me. I don't condone violence, by the way.

I'm sorry about what your sister's been living with. I've known a couple of people through the years who've battled anorexia and/or bulimia. Seems it's a lifelong struggle. Good days, weeks, months, years. I hope she can one day entirely conquer the food demons.

Have a good night.

Always be kinder than you feel.

[craigbey 0]

Quote

... there are people out there who struggle with the disease of addiction and find some way(s) to cope while avoiding the chemical or other triggers that lead to damaging behaviors. They may find a geographical solution, change their name, get a new job, get married, etc. and appear to have 'gotten it together'. That is dangerous territory for the addict and those around him/her. Be wary.

I know a couple of people who have employed such measures as a temporary fix, but their delusion came crashing down later and they hit a new and even lower 'bottom', often causing even more pain and grief.

One such person will soon be a first-time parent. For the sake of the child, I sincerely hope their parent(s) can stay clean and sober.

Perhaps making babies is the new distraction...

[SivaGanesha 2]

LuckyMcSwervy

He then threatened that if I made any more phone calls or emails to his family or friends, he was calling the police to tell them I was harassing him, he knows all the cops, etc. ... He knows I'm smarter than that to think he could get anywhere legally with me, but to threaten my career and do something to maliciously fuck with my stellar reputation is beyond out of bounds.

What I'm about to say is irrelevant since I know you have no intention of ever contacting him again.

However, if he's told you in no uncertain terms to stop contacting his friends and family--and if said friends and family seem to be on his side, not yours--then legally he does in fact have a pretty strong case against you for harrassment if you continue the contact he has told you to cease. It might be different if your only contact with him were indirect (through friends and family) and they supported you in "intervening". But it sounds like those closer to him than you are are supporting him. He's exercised his right to ask you to cease contact and his rights are his rights--alcoholic or not.

At this point about the only contact that would be advisable would be if you contacted law enforcement if you know he has committed or is about to commit a crime (eg DUI).

But I know all this is irrelevant at this point because you've made your own decision to cease contact with him--definitely the right decision for your own legal protection if nothing else.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

SivaGanesha

***He then threatened that if I made any more phone calls or emails to his family or friends, he was calling the police to tell them I was harassing him, he knows all the cops, etc. ... He knows I'm smarter than that to think he could get anywhere legally with me, but to threaten my career and do something to maliciously fuck with my stellar reputation is beyond out of bounds.

What I'm about to say is irrelevant since I know you have no intention of ever contacting him again.

However, if he's told you in no uncertain terms to stop contacting his friends and family--and if said friends and family seem to be on his side, not yours--then legally he does in fact have a pretty strong case against you for harrassment if you continue the contact he has told you to cease[/url]. It might be different if your only contact with him were indirect (through friends and family) and they supported you in "intervening". But it sounds like those closer to him than you are are supporting him. He's exercised his right to ask you to cease contact and his rights are his rights--alcoholic or not.

At this point about the only contact that would be advisable would be if you contacted law enforcement if you know he has committed or is about to commit a crime (eg DUI).

But I know all this is irrelevant at this point because you've made your own decision to cease contact with him--definitely the right decision for your own legal protection if nothing else.

Actually, HE does NOT. I know you don't know what line of work I do but I know for a fact, HE does NOT have enough probable cause to even sign a complaint against me for ANYTHING. I've issued hundreds and hundreds of harassment complaints in my career. Hell, I've signed warrants for the worst crimes you can think of, never having even ONE dismissed for lack of probable cause or having one dismissed/reissued to another offense/criminal statute because I signed one with an incorrect offense/criminal statute. He was just running his mouth on something he doesn't know anything about.


Harassment - 2C:33-4

New Jersey 2C Criminal Code
2C:33-4. Harassment

2C:33-4. Harassment.

Except as provided in subsection e., a person commits a petty disorderly persons offense if, with purpose to harass another, he:

a.Makes, or causes to be made, a communication or communications anonymously or at extremely inconvenient hours, or in offensively coarse language, or any other manner likely to cause annoyance or alarm;

b.Subjects another to striking, kicking, shoving, or other offensive touching, or threatens to do so; or

c.Engages in any other course of alarming conduct or of repeatedly committed acts with purpose to alarm or seriously annoy such other person.

A communication under subsection a. may be deemed to have been made either at the place where it originated or at the place where it was received.

d.(Deleted by amendment, P.L.2001, c.443).

e.A person commits a crime of the fourth degree if, in committing an offense under this section, he was serving a term of imprisonment or was on parole or probation as the result of a conviction of any indictable offense under the laws of this State, any other state or the United States.

L.1978, c.95; amended 1983, c.334; 1990, c.87, s.2; 1995, c.211, s.2; 1998, c.17, s.4; 2001, c.443, s.3.


Anyway, I really do appreciate your concern but LEGAL advice, especially from outside of my home state where our 2C Code of Criminal Conduct statues would apply, is not what I was seeking. I've got that covered.

Always be kinder than you feel.

[SivaGanesha 2]

No, you are right, I don't know you. I am offering you my objective feedback as a disinterested observer but a layman. You apparently have the professional expertise but I suspect aren't viewing this as objectively as when you make such decisions in a professional capacity.

You talked about "beating this guy to a pulp". I certainly found that "alarming" and a "threat to do offensive touching".

I won't comment any further on the law. I'm simply saying be careful. You said some things yourself I found pretty scary.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

SivaGanesha

No, you are right, I don't know you. I am offering you my objective feedback as a disinterested observer but a layman. You apparently have the professional expertise but I suspect aren't viewing this as objectively as when you make such decisions in a professional capacity.

You talked about "beating this guy to a pulp". I certainly found that "alarming" and a "threat to do offensive touching".

I won't comment any further on the law. I'm simply saying be careful. You said some things yourself I found pretty scary.

I view too many things objectively, that's probably a problem since I take home my work all too often and extend it's black/white/no gray areas very literally to some areas in my personal life that probably need some more flexibility.

If you review you'll see I didn't state I'd be doing any harm as it's common knowledge my Dad has been dead for years. I've never lifted a hand in my life and I surely wouldn't start know.

I reread what I initially responded to you and I think I jumped on you a little too harshly and I apologize for that. I'm very passionate about the system.

Always be kinder than you feel.

[SivaGanesha 2]

LuckyMcSwervy

If you review you'll see I didn't state I'd be doing any harm as it's common knowledge my Dad has been dead for years. I've never lifted a hand in my life and I surely wouldn't start know.

I understand

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

SivaGanesha

***If you review you'll see I didn't state I'd be doing any harm as it's common knowledge my Dad has been dead for years. I've never lifted a hand in my life and I surely wouldn't start know.

I understand
Thanks. I hope so as well but I doubt I'll ever know an outcome.

Always be kinder than you feel.

[Krip 2]

Hi Lucky

I'll stick my neck out and go on the record, some of us know the outcome and it's not going to be good.

I don't know the man or have a dog in this discussion, it called reality.

One Jump Wonder

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

Krip

Hi Lucky

I'll stick my neck out and go on the record, some of us know the outcome and it's not going to be good.

I don't know the man or have a dog in this discussion, it called reality.

Hi there Krip -

Well, I've read some great recovery accounts from our skydiving friends so I hope he's a good statistic one day.

I meant I'll never know in my last post as I'll never know since there will be no additional communication/contact. When I write someone off, it's forever.

I'm all about self preservation for my health, sanity and all around general well being. I've had toxic people in my life (mother, brother, friends) and learned a long time ago just because you have a history or are even related to someone doesn't mean you have to be a "good guy" and keep someone in your life when they have total disregard for your well being or when they treat you like dirt.

Thank you for writing. I know I owe you a PM. I'm behind in my replies to the Inbox. Sorry!

Have a great day out there!
L McS

Always be kinder than you feel.