mjosparky 3 #26 October 2, 2004 It would lend credibility to your position if you identified yourself and filled out your profile. If you were treated as you say, as a rigger, I would like to apologize for what happened. Not all, in fact very few, riggers are dirt bags. Most do more then they charge for and are eager to help newer jumper out. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #27 October 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteNo, technically you do not have to call the manufacturer first. To get picky, it is the manufacturer or the administrator. But I think that's splitting hairs, if you're not going to call the manufacturer to make sure a mod is ok, are you going to go through the FSDO to get it done? Quote I am not not trying to split hairs here, but to qualify the fact that the modifications to a H/C can in fact be a legal modification. We do go through the FSDO for TSO approval along with LOA (Letters of Authorization) for modifications and alterations. There, the same engineering group that issued the manufacturer their TSO makes the decision whether or not to issue a LOA. With that said, most Master Riggers generally do not get that involved with modifications and alterations. Things like main riser cover "Tuck Tabs", Walrus Teeth, and anthing else that may affect openings should be properly documented with something in writting from the manufacturer or the FSDO. *** There is 2 things that piss me off here. First, it's the arrogance of some rigger to think he can "do no wrong". As my DPRE once told me, we don't have the luxary of learning from our mistakes. The second is using newbies as a dumping ground for tired and altered gear. Quote I am assuming you are directing the "arrogance" at the unknown rigger, not me. I also have a problem with riggers that think that once they have a riggers ticket (Senior or Master) that they can do anything they damn well please. Your second point also left out gear that does not fit the jumper that is buying it. Back to the point at hand, the modifications that where first dicussed can be legal. There have been LOA's issued for the exact mods that were described earlier on the Vector II. The LOAs are issued individually on a per S/N basis only. Blue ones, MEL Skyworks Parachute ServiceSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #28 October 3, 2004 It sucks that you are going through this and have met with a lot of unhappy surprises along the way. But I also agree with the caveat emptor poster too. You put your hands in the life of this gear, so to buy gear without knowing anything at all about jumping is doing things backwards. I only have 10 jumps and don't know crap about gear yet. But I'm buying my first rig tomorrow. I trust the owner of the DZ I'm buying it from. He's also a master rigger. I spent a rainy afternoon there with him teaching me about different containers, canopy materials, canopy designs, etc. After discussing what I was looking for and spending a couple hours of him teaching me, we narrowed down what I needed and he fortunately had a rig available that would work. Take this as a learning experience not to rush headlong into big purchases. Be thankful it isn't something more expensive a problem than some upgrades to your rig. You will be wiser next time. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites teason 0 #29 October 3, 2004 QuoteI am assuming you are directing the "arrogance" at the unknown rigger, not me. Sorry, definately not directed at you. Had a few experiences with bad riggers, they get me quite hot I need lots of venting! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites teason 0 #30 October 3, 2004 QuoteYou put your hands in the life of this gear, so to buy gear without knowing anything at all about jumping is doing things backwards. I don't believe he did, I believe he went to his DZO and Master Rigger. QuoteI only have 10 jumps and don't know crap about gear yet. But I'm buying my first rig tomorrow. I trust the owner of the DZ I'm buying it from. He's also a master rigger. This is the issue here. We put our trust in our mentors, it's just what we all do. When we are learning, we look to them for guidance and direction. We ask advice on equipment and we listen to what they have to say. We also look to them to ensure that our gear is safe. When I was an up and coming jumper, I had a reserve ride at another DZ. The rigger who repacked my gear was horrified by the condition and repairs made to my gear. When I picked up my gear he gave me advice. He said "don't trust your rigger". I was disturbed by the advice but left thinking he was overreacting. Now I'm a rigger and I understand what he meant. I think back to those early days and think about the faith I put in him and it bothers me. (now you know why it's a hot button) When we go to riggers, we arn't buying a cheap stereo or stuff of the net, we are buying safety. It should go a little further than Caviat Emptor!I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites zimsgirl 0 #31 October 4, 2004 Hi everyone. Thanks so much for taking the time to post. I am the sister of the girl who started this post and she was actually jumping my gear. First of all, I want to clarify that I switched DZs when I moved back to Colorado so the riggers at Mile Hi are actually the riggers who helped me catch all these illegal manoeuvers. Until I get the story from the DZO and the rigger at my old DZ I will not name the persons involved. I own a Vector II with a Jedei 170 and a "PD 150" in it. Last weekend, I found out (thanks to my sister having a cutaway) that it was really a Tempo 150. I've jumped this gear for about 40 jumps. The container is old and shoddy, but the rigger made some modifications for me to make it more freefly friendly. I just called the owner of the DZ to ask him about the rig. He doesn't remember who added the RSL to the rig, how many jumps the Jedei had before he sold it to me, or what reserve he sold to me. When I told him that I had a Tempo in my container and asked how many rides it had had down, he told me "a couple three" (whatever that means). I remember distinctly him telling me that the reserve had only one ride down but that he would sell it to me for super cheap. I then asked him who added the RSL and he said "Oh that would be...no, I don't know." "Well, would (the rigger at this DZ) have done it?" "Uh, maybe...why?" So that was a little sketchy. The rigger wasn't there so I'll call tomorrow. I'm just hoping that he'll be arrogant enough to admit to his work, and if he didn't do it, that he'll at least tell me who did. The RSL mod is apparently a correct modification, just not for the Vector container, and I can't remove it by knifing the stiching because he ended up going through some plastic tubing. Other mods that he did for me include a bridle cover flap about half as wide as the bridle so it doesn't fit the bridle at all, velcro additions to the riser that don't really work (they come undone when freeflying), tightening the BOC (I think that was ok), and I've heard about him doing paper repacks and bragging about repacking reserves in 20 minutes. Most of these things I brushed aside consoling myself that one should get a good base on belly anyway before starting freefly and freestyle, but now I'm just pissed that I bought a rig that really wasn't made for freeflying after the modifications, that it's been deemed unairworthy, that I no longer have a rig and therefore neither my sister nor I can jump without paying up the ass for rental gear, and that the rigger/DZO potentially put our lives in danger. Anyway, "versleciel" and I will keep you guys updated and thanks for all the advice and PMs! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #32 October 5, 2004 Chances are that RSL retro-fit was done by Action Air in Davis, California. Chances are the retro-fit was done legally, but the paperwork got lost. Action Air got FAA Approval to retro-fit RSLs to most types of skydiving containers and converted hundreds - maybe thousands. At the time, Action Air was owned by Ray Ferrel - an FAA Designated Parachute Rigger Examiner and former manager of the GQ Security Parachute factory in San Leandro, California. Ray knows more about parachute design and manufacture than the next 100 FAA bureaucrats combined. Heck, they even installed an RSL on my old (two-pin Mirage). When Action Air converted Vectors, they did not follow Relative Workshop's RSL pattern, instead installing RSLs that looked more like Javelin RSLs: perfectly functional and legal, just not the same as RWS RSLs. RSL popularity peaked in the early 1990s, just before Cypres became fashionable. If you are still angry about this shoddy salesmanship, demand that the DZO refund your money. Mind you a ratty old Vector 2 is only worth $300. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites teason 0 #33 October 5, 2004 If it was performed legally by a reputable source, then the mod should have been recorded on the Data card, unless the origional has been lost. If it's origional and has no metion, I'd be skeptical. Thanks for the info Rob, something to look forI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VERSLECIEL 0 #34 October 5, 2004 I've heard that theory too, about Action Air maybe having modified it. If this is the case, than it's fine....I just wish there was some way to verify that's what happened. But, if Action Air did add the RSL mod, the stitching wasn't well done, which is why we now can't just remove the stitching...we would have to get the plastic tubing redone. I'm more inclined to think that the rigger did a poor job of it. Especially after having found out this weekend that he ripped off another one of our friends.....It just makes me frustrated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggingplace 0 #35 October 5, 2004 First of all, I'm sorry for what you are going through. you need to contact the DZO that sold you the rig and tell him that you would like your money back. If he refuses to give you a refund, then you can call 1-800-FAA-SURE. you do not have to give your name if you do not wish to,but the FAA will respond.If the rigger who did the mod's did not do any paper work on the rig then it will be your word against his. As in many cases the DZO may not be aware that the rig was unairworthy.A lot of DZO's rely on what their riggers tell them.All riggers are not bad. most will do more than they are ask to do without charging you, but as in anything else we do have our 10%. find yourself a rigger who you trust and stay with him.Mike Gainey Master Rigger DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites robertmicp 0 #36 October 5, 2004 QuoteChances are that RSL retro-fit was done by Action Air in Davis, California. Chances are the retro-fit was done legally, but the paperwork got lost. Action Air got FAA Approval to retro-fit RSLs to most types of skydiving containers and converted hundreds - maybe thousands. At the time, Action Air was owned by Ray Ferrel Ray still owns Action Air in Davis. I have done all my jumps there and talked to Ray about RSLs. They run a top notch loft and great work. If you have concerns on the RSL, give Ray a call. just my .02 "Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying who shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, here am I, send me." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
peregrinerose 0 #28 October 3, 2004 It sucks that you are going through this and have met with a lot of unhappy surprises along the way. But I also agree with the caveat emptor poster too. You put your hands in the life of this gear, so to buy gear without knowing anything at all about jumping is doing things backwards. I only have 10 jumps and don't know crap about gear yet. But I'm buying my first rig tomorrow. I trust the owner of the DZ I'm buying it from. He's also a master rigger. I spent a rainy afternoon there with him teaching me about different containers, canopy materials, canopy designs, etc. After discussing what I was looking for and spending a couple hours of him teaching me, we narrowed down what I needed and he fortunately had a rig available that would work. Take this as a learning experience not to rush headlong into big purchases. Be thankful it isn't something more expensive a problem than some upgrades to your rig. You will be wiser next time. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #29 October 3, 2004 QuoteI am assuming you are directing the "arrogance" at the unknown rigger, not me. Sorry, definately not directed at you. Had a few experiences with bad riggers, they get me quite hot I need lots of venting! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #30 October 3, 2004 QuoteYou put your hands in the life of this gear, so to buy gear without knowing anything at all about jumping is doing things backwards. I don't believe he did, I believe he went to his DZO and Master Rigger. QuoteI only have 10 jumps and don't know crap about gear yet. But I'm buying my first rig tomorrow. I trust the owner of the DZ I'm buying it from. He's also a master rigger. This is the issue here. We put our trust in our mentors, it's just what we all do. When we are learning, we look to them for guidance and direction. We ask advice on equipment and we listen to what they have to say. We also look to them to ensure that our gear is safe. When I was an up and coming jumper, I had a reserve ride at another DZ. The rigger who repacked my gear was horrified by the condition and repairs made to my gear. When I picked up my gear he gave me advice. He said "don't trust your rigger". I was disturbed by the advice but left thinking he was overreacting. Now I'm a rigger and I understand what he meant. I think back to those early days and think about the faith I put in him and it bothers me. (now you know why it's a hot button) When we go to riggers, we arn't buying a cheap stereo or stuff of the net, we are buying safety. It should go a little further than Caviat Emptor!I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zimsgirl 0 #31 October 4, 2004 Hi everyone. Thanks so much for taking the time to post. I am the sister of the girl who started this post and she was actually jumping my gear. First of all, I want to clarify that I switched DZs when I moved back to Colorado so the riggers at Mile Hi are actually the riggers who helped me catch all these illegal manoeuvers. Until I get the story from the DZO and the rigger at my old DZ I will not name the persons involved. I own a Vector II with a Jedei 170 and a "PD 150" in it. Last weekend, I found out (thanks to my sister having a cutaway) that it was really a Tempo 150. I've jumped this gear for about 40 jumps. The container is old and shoddy, but the rigger made some modifications for me to make it more freefly friendly. I just called the owner of the DZ to ask him about the rig. He doesn't remember who added the RSL to the rig, how many jumps the Jedei had before he sold it to me, or what reserve he sold to me. When I told him that I had a Tempo in my container and asked how many rides it had had down, he told me "a couple three" (whatever that means). I remember distinctly him telling me that the reserve had only one ride down but that he would sell it to me for super cheap. I then asked him who added the RSL and he said "Oh that would be...no, I don't know." "Well, would (the rigger at this DZ) have done it?" "Uh, maybe...why?" So that was a little sketchy. The rigger wasn't there so I'll call tomorrow. I'm just hoping that he'll be arrogant enough to admit to his work, and if he didn't do it, that he'll at least tell me who did. The RSL mod is apparently a correct modification, just not for the Vector container, and I can't remove it by knifing the stiching because he ended up going through some plastic tubing. Other mods that he did for me include a bridle cover flap about half as wide as the bridle so it doesn't fit the bridle at all, velcro additions to the riser that don't really work (they come undone when freeflying), tightening the BOC (I think that was ok), and I've heard about him doing paper repacks and bragging about repacking reserves in 20 minutes. Most of these things I brushed aside consoling myself that one should get a good base on belly anyway before starting freefly and freestyle, but now I'm just pissed that I bought a rig that really wasn't made for freeflying after the modifications, that it's been deemed unairworthy, that I no longer have a rig and therefore neither my sister nor I can jump without paying up the ass for rental gear, and that the rigger/DZO potentially put our lives in danger. Anyway, "versleciel" and I will keep you guys updated and thanks for all the advice and PMs! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #32 October 5, 2004 Chances are that RSL retro-fit was done by Action Air in Davis, California. Chances are the retro-fit was done legally, but the paperwork got lost. Action Air got FAA Approval to retro-fit RSLs to most types of skydiving containers and converted hundreds - maybe thousands. At the time, Action Air was owned by Ray Ferrel - an FAA Designated Parachute Rigger Examiner and former manager of the GQ Security Parachute factory in San Leandro, California. Ray knows more about parachute design and manufacture than the next 100 FAA bureaucrats combined. Heck, they even installed an RSL on my old (two-pin Mirage). When Action Air converted Vectors, they did not follow Relative Workshop's RSL pattern, instead installing RSLs that looked more like Javelin RSLs: perfectly functional and legal, just not the same as RWS RSLs. RSL popularity peaked in the early 1990s, just before Cypres became fashionable. If you are still angry about this shoddy salesmanship, demand that the DZO refund your money. Mind you a ratty old Vector 2 is only worth $300. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #33 October 5, 2004 If it was performed legally by a reputable source, then the mod should have been recorded on the Data card, unless the origional has been lost. If it's origional and has no metion, I'd be skeptical. Thanks for the info Rob, something to look forI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VERSLECIEL 0 #34 October 5, 2004 I've heard that theory too, about Action Air maybe having modified it. If this is the case, than it's fine....I just wish there was some way to verify that's what happened. But, if Action Air did add the RSL mod, the stitching wasn't well done, which is why we now can't just remove the stitching...we would have to get the plastic tubing redone. I'm more inclined to think that the rigger did a poor job of it. Especially after having found out this weekend that he ripped off another one of our friends.....It just makes me frustrated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggingplace 0 #35 October 5, 2004 First of all, I'm sorry for what you are going through. you need to contact the DZO that sold you the rig and tell him that you would like your money back. If he refuses to give you a refund, then you can call 1-800-FAA-SURE. you do not have to give your name if you do not wish to,but the FAA will respond.If the rigger who did the mod's did not do any paper work on the rig then it will be your word against his. As in many cases the DZO may not be aware that the rig was unairworthy.A lot of DZO's rely on what their riggers tell them.All riggers are not bad. most will do more than they are ask to do without charging you, but as in anything else we do have our 10%. find yourself a rigger who you trust and stay with him.Mike Gainey Master Rigger DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robertmicp 0 #36 October 5, 2004 QuoteChances are that RSL retro-fit was done by Action Air in Davis, California. Chances are the retro-fit was done legally, but the paperwork got lost. Action Air got FAA Approval to retro-fit RSLs to most types of skydiving containers and converted hundreds - maybe thousands. At the time, Action Air was owned by Ray Ferrel Ray still owns Action Air in Davis. I have done all my jumps there and talked to Ray about RSLs. They run a top notch loft and great work. If you have concerns on the RSL, give Ray a call. just my .02 "Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying who shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, here am I, send me." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
