SIM Observation - landing on buildings

[nigel99 150]

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d. After landing on top of a building in windy conditions, pull the cutaway handle to prevent being dragged off the building.

Just wasting time reading the SIM on a crap weather day and noticed the above in the Category A section of the ISP.

I am not sure how common RSL's on student equipment but there is no mention of disconnecting the RSL.

Just posting an observation, not looking for advice or input.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Hellis 0]

Unless you jump in hurricane winds wouldnt just the reserve PC just pop out and just die a few feet beind you?
If you hold a normal PC in the wind you will notice it pulls but not that much, now add the weight of the coil and plate of a reserve PC and im sure it will just fall straight down.

Common sense says you should disconnect the RSL, but im guessing you shouldnt have students in the air when there is that much wind that the reserve PC can deploy the reserve.
And keeping things simple by not giving to many instructions is perhaps the reason.
I think it does not mention the RSL because keeping it simple, and when you get enough expirience and awareness you know you should disconnect without someone telling you.

But i agree it perhaps should say disconnect RSL

[nigel99 150]

In Category D they introduce disconnecting the RSL so I think you are correct.

There is however a nice bit of "odd" english where in CAT A they tell you to pull the cutaway until 1000 feet. I know how hard it is to communicate effectively so I am not criticizing.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[jrmrangers 0]

I just finished reading the SIM and that topic is covered more than once. Im pretty sure in the latter discusion of building landings it mentions disconnecting the RSL (time permitting).

Wait , I pull what first?

[riggerpaul 1]

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In Category D they introduce disconnecting the RSL so I think you are correct.

There is however a nice bit of "odd" english where in CAT A they tell you to pull the cutaway until 1000 feet. I know how hard it is to communicate effectively so I am not criticizing.

Is this the language you mention?

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6. Pull the cutaway handle until no lower than 1,000 feet.

(2011 SIM, Section 4, Category A, General Section I, Subsection H, Sub Sub "Partial Malfunctions", item 6)

The intent is pretty clear, isn't it? Don't cutaway below 1000 feet? Sure, the wording could be better. But I would not expect this is high on the list of things to fix.

So, how is your comment NOT a criticism?

[nigel99 150]

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In Category D they introduce disconnecting the RSL so I think you are correct.

There is however a nice bit of "odd" english where in CAT A they tell you to pull the cutaway until 1000 feet. I know how hard it is to communicate effectively so I am not criticizing.

Is this the language you mention?

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6. Pull the cutaway handle until no lower than 1,000 feet.

(2011 SIM, Section 4, Category A, General Section I, Subsection H, Sub Sub "Partial Malfunctions", item 6)

The intent is pretty clear, isn't it? Don't cutaway below 1000 feet? Sure, the wording could be better. But I would not expect this is high on the list of things to fix.

So, how is your comment NOT a criticism?

Yes that is the sentence. I know that the intent is clear but until generally means "continually".

It is not a criticism in that I have the utmost respect for the people who have put together a document that can accurately and concisely convey alot of critical information, very clearly and unambiguously. Doing a good job doesn't stop the odd bit of "funny" language creeping in though.

I certainly wouldn't be able to word it better as when you start breaking things down how long do you pull it for? Until the main canopy releases, until the cutaway cables are fully extracted, until your arm is fully extended? If you said before 1000 feet you could get someone waiting for 1001feet and the list goes on...

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[DocPop 1]

What about "Only pull the cutaway handle if above 1,000 feet AGL"?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[riggerpaul 1]

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What about "Only pull the cutaway handle if above 1,000 feet AGL"?

That's better, and clearer than what is there now.

From the point of view of the list of instructions, I might say, "Pull cutaway but only if still above 1000 feet", because in the list of instruction, "Pull cutaway" is the next thing to do. But I'm being very picky, likely overly so.

I looked back through all the earlier SIM versions I have downloaded, and the language has been the way it is now for quite some time. So it doesn't seem as though there have been many objections.

I am, in fact, amazed that the SIM is as concise as it is. It cannot be an easy tasks to maintain that document. My hat is off to those who do.

[BillyVance 34]

Ask Airtwardo. He has a great story about doing a demo landing on top of a building... maybe a search will find it on here.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Hellis 0]

So if i jump with a SOS handle i can pull it lower than 1000 feet?

Or if some old fart decides to jump his stoneage gear with capewells?

I think the wording might be confusing, but it still gets the job done.
But if we are going to make this in to a silly wording game, Disconnect main parachute, might be the best option as it covers all systems (?)

[tdog 0]

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I am not sure how common RSL's on student equipment but there is no mention of disconnecting the RSL.

My opinions:

If you are being pulled off a building, cutting away is the number one priority. The RSL will activate the PC and the reserve might indeed fall out of the container in the bag and if so the reserve in the bag will sit on the roof next to you. Thus, disconnecting the RSL is of lower priority because a reserve in a bag is not a timebomb in most cases. If you are still sliding off the building on a slanted roof, the reserve and it's bag will be dragging behind you, and might actually catch on something and save your fall. (Unlikely, but possible.) Also unlikely but possible is the reserve comes out of the bag and tries to inflate, but at least you have time to grab lines and control the situation.

This ALL changes when you have a skyhook, in the same way that slamming on the brakes in your car on ice changes when you have anti-lock brakes vs pumping the brakes on a traditional car. Different safety systems, different issues.

If you have a skyhook, and you cut away and you have enough force pulling on the RSL due to winds keeping your main inflated on the ground, there is a significant possibility the skyhook will get the reserve to linestretch in less than a second and take the bag with it. Bill Booth confirmed this in email to me once. But he (and now I) also believe that the reserve, with it's slider up, will hit the roof in a tight wad of fabric. When you pull a reserve out of a rig for a repack, it feels like a brick. It takes quite a bit of shaking for it to open up and start looking like a parachute. It is very, very likely this brick of fabric will land on the roof and remain a brick. But should it start to inflate, the slider is still up and the system will be a lot more controllable than a fully inflated main.

Thus, when I have educated conversations with younger jumpers (I don't really feel this is a subject that can be taught as rules and procedures because there are so many what-ifs") - we talk about this. Clearly landing in a fast moving river - where a main could grab a rock and thus hold you under in whitewater, an RSL is going to make getting rid of your main an issue, especially with a skyhook. But on a roof - probably not... Next to a runway where you are being dragged towards the prop of a moving plane - or interstate highway towards a semi-truck, probably not.

Thus, my personal belief has become - always disconnect the RSL on ocean or river water landings prior to landing unless there is no possible chance of doing it in time and controlling the landing. On a roof, it is the opposite for me - spend all my energy on an accurate and safe landing and ONLY disconnecting the RSL if the distraction will not adversely affect my ability to land safely on the roof. This is because, to me, having a RSL reserve deployment in a river is very serious, whereas an RSL reserve deployment on a roof is not.

Putting all of this in the SIM would be politically challenging, opinion based, hard to digest, be specific to brands of rigs instead of universal, and controversial. Thus while I respect the SIM, for me it is just the outline/starting point/basis for further education.

[Hellis 0]

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On a roof, it is the opposite for me - spend all my energy on an accurate and safe landing and ONLY disconnecting the RSL if the distraction will not adversely affect my ability to land safely on the roof. This is because, to me, having a RSL reserve deployment in a river is very serious, whereas an RSL reserve deployment on a roof is not.

That got me thinking.
If you have enough time to disconnect the RSL, you should have enough time to steer away from the roof.
The only time i can myself not beeing able to steer away from a roof would be a big ass warehouse, and landing on a big roof would be just like any other off landings.
Sure there is a risk that i would get dragged off the roof, but in my opinion the risk is the same as me beeing dragged on to a road.

If we are talking about a normal sized home roof, anyone off student status should be able to see if they are about to land on such a roof when they are 300 feet AGL and that should be enough time to steer away.

[tdog 0]

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On a roof, it is the opposite for me - spend all my energy on an accurate and safe landing and ONLY disconnecting the RSL if the distraction will not adversely affect my ability to land safely on the roof. This is because, to me, having a RSL reserve deployment in a river is very serious, whereas an RSL reserve deployment on a roof is not.

That got me thinking.
If you have enough time to disconnect the RSL, you should have enough time to steer away from the roof.

As I tell people when they ask me this:

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I was told a story by a skydiving friend. He landed on the Home Depot. I asked why. He said because he wanted to. WANTED TO? He was blown off the main landing area into a congested urban envronment. 'My choices were the interstate freeway, a small mountain covered in trees, a parking lot full of old ladies driving Cadalacs, or a 100,000 sqft football sized open landing area. I took the roof over every other possibility.

But you are right - almost every small roof can be avoided, I would hope, with good technique (proper flat turn).

[popsjumper 2]

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If we are talking about a normal sized home roof, anyone off student status should be able to see if they are about to land on such a roof when they are 300 feet AGL and that should be enough time to steer away.

Well, we are talking about students here...students prior to self-supervision.

But, in essence, I agree that licensed jumpers should be able to do that. Unfortunately, that's not always the case, eh?


as and aside:
By student status, I'm thinking you may be talking about students that have completed their supervised training and have been released for self-supervision.

In today's verbiage, these guys are still students and remain so until licensed.

What ever happened to "novice" and such?

As far as the RSL...I teach disconnect it under canopy.
My thought is that it's a good practice in many situations and putting it into your procedures from the get-go develops good habits.

Some are going to argue doing that under canopy and that's fine. I feel that the 1 second it takes to do that is small potatoes as compared to trying to do it while being dragged...off the roof or along the ground or anytime else.

Some are going to argue about at what altitude to disconnect and they are looking for some specific number that's arguable. There's no hard-fast number.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Hellis 0]

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What ever happened to "novice" and such?

Novice??
What are you trying to say??
When i was a student my Cypres had a yellow button saying STUDENT.
When i bought my own gear i got a red button saying EXPERT.

I dont know why canopymanufactors still persist on having Novice, Intermediate and Advanced on their wing load charts.
Why not use that space on the canopys label to something useful, like a smiley

[riggerpaul 1]

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What ever happened to "novice" and such?

Novice??
What are you trying to say??
When i was a student my Cypres had a yellow button saying STUDENT.
When i bought my own gear i got a red button saying EXPERT.

I dont know why canopymanufactors still persist on having Novice, Intermediate and Advanced on their wing load charts.
Why not use that space on the canopys label to something useful, like a smiley

It is the CYPRES that is Expert, not necessarily the jumper jumping it.

Canopy manufacturers persist because the information is important and relevant.

The wise jumper knows within himself where he should place himself in the charts.

Just because some of the jumpers are willing to lie to themselves does not make the charts any less relevant.

[Hellis 0]

Come on Paul, you know it was a joke.

But perhaps i should have said so for those are new here and read that as "truth"

[BrianM 1]

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It is the CYPRES that is Expert, not necessarily the jumper jumping it.

So what does that say about the ones labelled "Student"? Maybe we shouldn't be using those - especially for student jumpers!

I sure hope that the AAD versions are all equally expert at doing their jobs, and that the "Expert", "Student", and "Tandem" labels refer to the jumper (or the type of jump, if you prefer).

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg