kjarv 0 #1 June 1, 2004 Hi all, Just had an interesting skydive. Got on a load that unbeknownst to me had 'demo' skydivers aboard, which meant a long aircraft ride from the DZ (Pontecagnano, Italy) to the Demo area (Naples) then back to the DZ. The ride: aircraft ascended to about 1500 ft, cruise 30 minutes to the demo area, DESCENDED to about 500' to find the demo area, Climbed back to about 1.5k circled for about 30 min, Climed to 3k, let the demo jumpers out, descended to 500ft for a flyby of demo area cruise climbed back to DZ to about 17k (30 more minutes) then descended to 14k as one of the older gentleman left on the aircraft started to feel bad. exit at 14k for a normal jump BUT: My question is, what in the hell was the status of my CYPRES, Neptune, and ProDytter after all that climbing and descending. The Neptune: The Neptune/Pro-Dytter were both in sync when we left the airport. Then the Neptune 'beeped' at me when we descended through my 1500ft warning altitude at some point during the series of climbs/descents. When we were back on the cruise climb I noticed it gave me the 'active' beep as we began climbing from the 500 ft flyby and I knew I couldn't trust my neptune for this jump. During the jump my Neptune gave my first alarm about 1000ft high(I have it set for 5k). The alarm surprised me, I did the trigger 'turn and track' then got that funny 'this ain't right feeling' cross checked with hand altimeter--yup, 1000 ft off... whoops. The second alarm also went off about 1000ft high. after the jump, I noticed my Neptune has an extra jump registered on it, with an exit altitude of 2k and a deployment alti of 1100 ft. The neptune also reported my skydive with an exit altitude of 12k and a deployment alti of 1200ft. I know we jumped at 14k and I dumped at about 3.5 I'm pretty sure it's off unless my Altimaster was off as well--- I have to assume that the Neptune got confused with the long ride and reset it's 'dz' altitude to the A/C altitude while we were either cruising or circling. I don't know if there is a way or even if it's a good idea to fix this in flight... The Pro-Dytter The Pro-Dytter behaved like a champ, it didn't alarm on our aircraft climbs/descents and it only armed on the first climbout from the airport. Its warning alarms went off as normal (5k and 3.5k respectively)---good to know and way to go L&B! The CYPRES The CYPRES didn't do anything strange (WHEW) but after the behavior of the NEPTUNE, the thought crossed my mind that it too could have become confused and thought I was lower that I actually was. I was concerned with all the descent/ascent stuff might activate the CYPRES, but I'm pretty sure that it won't go off unless your descent rate exceeds 78mph (6,900 fpm), but I was unsure. There was also advice going around the DZ after this jump that we should have all turned off our CYPRES while we were circling then reactivated it after the demo jump and to our cruise ascent to 14k. I am pretty positive that this would not be the thing to do, but people with far greater jump numbers than I have were giving that advice... I was tempted to just turn the CYPRES off and leave it off when I realized that it may be 'confused' but was unsure so I did nothing--- and it worked out -whew- Should I have turned off the CYPRES and left it off? Should I have turned off the CYPRES then turn it back on in flight? (I really thing that would be very bad) Should I have/is there a way to reset/calibrate the Neptune inflight---is it a good idea? After this, I know I'm glad I'm using a non-electronic altimeter on my wrist (good ol Altimaster) and the Mk-I eyeball got more use than normal as yet another crosscheck on this jump. Thoughts? Edit: Neptune Version 2.1.1 (no previous problems) Aircraft - Pilatus Porter At no time did the pilot go below the original DZ altitude (Pontecagnano is right on the coast) thanks! -kjarv "Have you slipped the surly bonds of earth?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #2 June 1, 2004 Your Cypres definitely got confused. Your pilot did almost all the things the Cypres manual warns against! You are lucky that it did not fire while you were in freefall. It would have been much simpler and safer to simply leave your Cypres off. A far wiser plan would have been to drop most of the skydivers from 14K early in the flight, then do the demo. What type of airplane were you using? To answer my own question: Skydive Salerno's website shows a Cessna Caravan, but it looks like a Pilatus Porter provides your primary airlift. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #3 June 1, 2004 What version of the neptune software were you using? I know in some earlier versions there were issues similar to what you're describing. I've had no issues whatsoever with the new versions when it comes to staying in synch with my pro-dytter. Also if you aren't on Neptune 2.1.2 I'd recommend upgrading. So far it's been rock solid. Edit: Good post. You got me thinking about some things when it comes to my cypress. Thanks! Blue ones, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #4 June 1, 2004 Why do you say that? The cypres manual says that it measures and locks in the altitude where it is set. Thus it would not be effected by a flight ascending and then descending. It goes on to say that if a single jump lasts more than 1 and a half hours the cypres will function normally but should be reset before the next jump - so here it would have functioned normally on this jump. The other requirements for flying refer to flying below ground level or below the level you have set the cypres to believe to be the ground. It doesn’t say anything about ascending then descending again above ground level. Is there something not in the manual we should know about or have I missed something in the manual? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #5 June 1, 2004 I don't think the Cypres locks on the altitude it starts at, because the air pressure will change during the day which affects it's reading. Like my neptune will read 0 as -160 MSL early on in a day at the DZ but then later it might read zero as -60 MSL. It has to constantly sample the pressure and try to figure out when I'm still on the ground so it can zero itself out based on the current air pressure. Cruising in a plane at 1.5k for awhile might confuse it into think that the air pressure at 1.5k was the ground, so it would reset itself there. I have had my Neptune think I was in freefall mode while still in the plane when it was decending, but it corrected itself when the plane leveled out and logged everything fine. I'm on software revision 2.1.1. I think though you can force set it to stay locked onto a certain reading to avoid this sort of issue. You can put it on Manual Mode under DZ Setup. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #6 June 1, 2004 Yeah I recognise that the cypress will continually adjust to atmospheric pressure changes. But the manual is silent on where the boundary lies between mere weather change and a prolonged flight. I didn’t like the term “locked” when I used it, but it’s the term used in the cypress manual. The point is, I don’t see the manual actually warning against anything done in the above description. That’s not to say we can do it safely, just that the manual is silent on the points. I just wondered if there was something somewhere which does tell us that it’s not safe to do as above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kjarv 0 #7 June 1, 2004 rigerrob, Yeah, I'm gettin' the feeling that I got lucky that the CYPRES didn't do anything strange, but I'm also comforted that it DIDN'T do anything strange. Salerno sold it's Caravan, don't know why it's still on the website--- not enough skydivers there to support it It sure was nice to have the Caravan while it lasted.... I kinda thought it would've been a better idea to drop us off first too, but I'm selfish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lister55 0 #8 June 2, 2004 This is a little off topic here, but I would think that the DZ or at least the pilot would inform people of such a radical difference in operations for this flight. I would like to know ahead of time that I was going to spend this much time in a cramped airplane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kjarv 0 #9 June 2, 2004 Lister, Yeah, I would have loved to have been warned, but it's at the very least partially my fault--- I don't speak nearly good enough Italian! I thought they were joking when I noticed that the flight plan was different and I asked them in my best italian what was going on and they told me we were going to Naples! Heck, I was relieved that they didn't MAKE me join the demo jump when whe got there hahaha Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kjarv 0 #10 June 2, 2004 All, Alti-2 just contactetd me and let me know that my Neptune would indeed get confused in such a situation. They also said that putting the Neptune in Manual mode would resolve the issue! Kudos to Alti-2 for monitoring these forums and taking the initiative to contact me! That's great customer service! -kjarv Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kjarv 0 #11 June 3, 2004 Got great tech support from Airtec as well -- their response: I have to admit that this was indeed an unusual flight. Thank you for clarifying the exact altitudes AGL of demo aera and DZ. To answer your initial question: Your Cypres would have worked as designed if needed. Only if the plane flies below the elevation of the airfield of departure, the Cypres would be affected. You find these infos on page 32 of The Cypres 1 Userd Guide or on page 30 of the Cypres 2 Users Guide. On your flight, this was not the case because the demo area was higher and the plane always stood above take off altitude. To explain what would happen: When you fly below the departure elevation, the Cypres will recognize that. It will recalibrate to the altitude where the plane is flying. If the plane ascends again, the Cypres will take the lowest flight altitude of the plane as new reference for the ground. The advice to turn the Cypres off and on in a flying plane is wrong. If you would have done so, the Cypres would have taken the flight altitude as ground reference, and the activation altitude at your DZ would have been higher. If you would have switched your Cypres off and on in the circeling plane at 1500 ft above the Demo area, your activation altitude at the DZ would have been at apx. 2400 feet AGL ( 1500 ft "ground" + 750 ft activation alt. + 150 ft elevation level difference between Demo area and DZ ) This is not funny. If in doubt, please have a look in the manual. If still in doubt - drop us a line or give us a call. It's a pleasure for us to help you evaluating if a certain jump plan is feasible or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #12 June 3, 2004 wasn't there a case in a competition a few years back when the plane cruised for about 30 minutes and a whole 4-way team cypress' fired because their audibles didnt work ? O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chrisky 0 #13 June 4, 2004 How old is your manual? A low flyby during a flight from one DZ to another led to a fatality in germany two years ago (it was part of a chain of mishaps on that jump). After this event, this section was introduced to the manuals AND a poster was sent to all the DZs i know. The Cypres will set itself to "jumprun" once air pressure drops significantly over a short period of time (short period=ground measuring cycles). Once in jumprun mode, it will measure constantly until the activation altitude is reached with a speed lower than 35m/s. Then, Cypres will go back to standard ground measuring cycles. Thus, if you do a low pass which goes lower than the set activation altitude, your cypres may assume your jump to be over fine. It will then start over remeasuring in 30 second cycles (which, if im not mistaken, is the ground measurement cycle). Once your plane starts pulling up again, cypres will reset the current altitude your plane is at as "Zero", once the new drop in air pressure is detected. If this happens while being lower than your landing site, your cypres would fire too low. if it happens above, it may fire too high (but not too high, as you still had to get to its preset activation altitude in the first place). Edit: Note to self: read the whole frickin' thread before posting!The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #14 June 4, 2004 Manual was on line on cypres website so I assume it was the current one. I think the cypres reps adressed the poster's question by saying there was no issue with what heppend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AirtecKai 0 #15 June 5, 2004 QuoteHow old is your manual? A low flyby during a flight from one DZ to another led to a fatality in germany two years ago (it was part of a chain of mishaps on that jump). After this event, this section was introduced to the manuals AND a poster was sent to all the DZs i know. Hello, just a quick correction here... In this case, an altitude adjustment (upwards) was made before boarding. After Take off and climbing for a few minutes, the plane made a low path over a neighbor DZ, flying through the adjusted landing elevation of the final DZ. This was the issue. If the jump would have been at the home DZ without altitude adjustment upwards, nothing would have happened. The reactions after this accident showed that the majority of the skydivers had a manual, but never looked into it. There were no changes in the manual, this issue is in there since 1991. We released a "info for jump pilots" poster ( which you can download at www.cypres.cc ) to remind the people once more. Blue skies, Kai Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites USPA 0 #16 June 7, 2004 If I remember correctly, this was the norwagian 4 way team, using the then experimental pro-dytter which had a beta version software in it. The cypres fired correctly.The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 0 #17 June 7, 2004 There was also a similar accident at Höxter, Germany, 2 years ago: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=176871#176871 ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites USPA 0 #18 June 7, 2004 No Saskia, Your incorrect. At hoxter the problem was a misconfigured cypres. Well the first problem was off course a lose of altitude awareness. The cypres problem was that they didn't adjust for the higher elevation of the DZ they were jumping at. I don't remember if AWD were involved, but it seems logical and they would have the same problem.The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 0 #19 June 7, 2004 From what I've gathered, at Höxter they didn't have audibles at all. The cypresses had been adjusted correctly however because the plane flew too low they were off. That's what I meant by a similar accident... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
lister55 0 #8 June 2, 2004 This is a little off topic here, but I would think that the DZ or at least the pilot would inform people of such a radical difference in operations for this flight. I would like to know ahead of time that I was going to spend this much time in a cramped airplane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kjarv 0 #9 June 2, 2004 Lister, Yeah, I would have loved to have been warned, but it's at the very least partially my fault--- I don't speak nearly good enough Italian! I thought they were joking when I noticed that the flight plan was different and I asked them in my best italian what was going on and they told me we were going to Naples! Heck, I was relieved that they didn't MAKE me join the demo jump when whe got there hahaha Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kjarv 0 #10 June 2, 2004 All, Alti-2 just contactetd me and let me know that my Neptune would indeed get confused in such a situation. They also said that putting the Neptune in Manual mode would resolve the issue! Kudos to Alti-2 for monitoring these forums and taking the initiative to contact me! That's great customer service! -kjarv Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kjarv 0 #11 June 3, 2004 Got great tech support from Airtec as well -- their response: I have to admit that this was indeed an unusual flight. Thank you for clarifying the exact altitudes AGL of demo aera and DZ. To answer your initial question: Your Cypres would have worked as designed if needed. Only if the plane flies below the elevation of the airfield of departure, the Cypres would be affected. You find these infos on page 32 of The Cypres 1 Userd Guide or on page 30 of the Cypres 2 Users Guide. On your flight, this was not the case because the demo area was higher and the plane always stood above take off altitude. To explain what would happen: When you fly below the departure elevation, the Cypres will recognize that. It will recalibrate to the altitude where the plane is flying. If the plane ascends again, the Cypres will take the lowest flight altitude of the plane as new reference for the ground. The advice to turn the Cypres off and on in a flying plane is wrong. If you would have done so, the Cypres would have taken the flight altitude as ground reference, and the activation altitude at your DZ would have been higher. If you would have switched your Cypres off and on in the circeling plane at 1500 ft above the Demo area, your activation altitude at the DZ would have been at apx. 2400 feet AGL ( 1500 ft "ground" + 750 ft activation alt. + 150 ft elevation level difference between Demo area and DZ ) This is not funny. If in doubt, please have a look in the manual. If still in doubt - drop us a line or give us a call. It's a pleasure for us to help you evaluating if a certain jump plan is feasible or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #12 June 3, 2004 wasn't there a case in a competition a few years back when the plane cruised for about 30 minutes and a whole 4-way team cypress' fired because their audibles didnt work ? O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #13 June 4, 2004 How old is your manual? A low flyby during a flight from one DZ to another led to a fatality in germany two years ago (it was part of a chain of mishaps on that jump). After this event, this section was introduced to the manuals AND a poster was sent to all the DZs i know. The Cypres will set itself to "jumprun" once air pressure drops significantly over a short period of time (short period=ground measuring cycles). Once in jumprun mode, it will measure constantly until the activation altitude is reached with a speed lower than 35m/s. Then, Cypres will go back to standard ground measuring cycles. Thus, if you do a low pass which goes lower than the set activation altitude, your cypres may assume your jump to be over fine. It will then start over remeasuring in 30 second cycles (which, if im not mistaken, is the ground measurement cycle). Once your plane starts pulling up again, cypres will reset the current altitude your plane is at as "Zero", once the new drop in air pressure is detected. If this happens while being lower than your landing site, your cypres would fire too low. if it happens above, it may fire too high (but not too high, as you still had to get to its preset activation altitude in the first place). Edit: Note to self: read the whole frickin' thread before posting!The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #14 June 4, 2004 Manual was on line on cypres website so I assume it was the current one. I think the cypres reps adressed the poster's question by saying there was no issue with what heppend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AirtecKai 0 #15 June 5, 2004 QuoteHow old is your manual? A low flyby during a flight from one DZ to another led to a fatality in germany two years ago (it was part of a chain of mishaps on that jump). After this event, this section was introduced to the manuals AND a poster was sent to all the DZs i know. Hello, just a quick correction here... In this case, an altitude adjustment (upwards) was made before boarding. After Take off and climbing for a few minutes, the plane made a low path over a neighbor DZ, flying through the adjusted landing elevation of the final DZ. This was the issue. If the jump would have been at the home DZ without altitude adjustment upwards, nothing would have happened. The reactions after this accident showed that the majority of the skydivers had a manual, but never looked into it. There were no changes in the manual, this issue is in there since 1991. We released a "info for jump pilots" poster ( which you can download at www.cypres.cc ) to remind the people once more. Blue skies, Kai Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #16 June 7, 2004 If I remember correctly, this was the norwagian 4 way team, using the then experimental pro-dytter which had a beta version software in it. The cypres fired correctly.The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #17 June 7, 2004 There was also a similar accident at Höxter, Germany, 2 years ago: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=176871#176871 ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USPA 0 #18 June 7, 2004 No Saskia, Your incorrect. At hoxter the problem was a misconfigured cypres. Well the first problem was off course a lose of altitude awareness. The cypres problem was that they didn't adjust for the higher elevation of the DZ they were jumping at. I don't remember if AWD were involved, but it seems logical and they would have the same problem.The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #19 June 7, 2004 From what I've gathered, at Höxter they didn't have audibles at all. The cypresses had been adjusted correctly however because the plane flew too low they were off. That's what I meant by a similar accident... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
