Tracking

[Mac 1]

For those people who dont fly tracking suits and have a body frame that does not get described as "great tracking potential", I have a question or two about terminal jumps you may do.

After looking at videos, posts and talking to people there seems to be uncertainty about "general" positions. The wide track postition some will say is the best all round, others will say that this is only for tracking suits and "tracking body types", for the rest of us "fall like a brick" types, a typical skydive track (arms in legs almost closed) with your shoulders rolled is apparently better. I also have heard that some prefer to look at the horizon to push the track more horizontal, with others saying to put your chin to your chest and look to your feet to help with the shoulder and upper body position (and better visuals).

Obviously there is lots of conflicting information from people about what is best to get the most efficient track, as whats good for one does not mean its good for another, and until I get back into that weird DZ environment and get onto the plane with my accuracy rig, hanwags, outdoor clothing, and frightened look as I dont like being on a plane with 15 other people cramed in (oh how the skydivers laugh and snear whislt they wear their pretty coloured suits and matching rigs) I dont know where to start to help save me spending money I dont want to at a Dropzone.

So I would appreciate either your thoughts of tracking with a frame that naturally does not fly or naturally arches like hell, or various things to try whilst practicing in a skydive to help find my most efficient position....

Thanks in advance for any thoughts

Michael

[pocbase 0]

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(oh how the skydivers laugh and snear whislt they wear their pretty coloured suits and matching rigs)

You've got issues dude!
I really wouldn't let a couple of morons hold me back especially on something as childish.
If I saw someone kitted up like you I'd ask if they want to do a Mr Bill

The bums will never win Lebowski, the bums will never win!
Enfin j'ai trouvé:
Bieeeen

[Mac 1]

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(oh how the skydivers laugh and snear whislt they wear their pretty coloured suits and matching rigs)

You've got issues dude!
I really wouldn't let a couple of morons hold me back especially on something as childish.
If I saw someone kitted up like you I'd ask if they want to do a Mr Bill

They dont hold me back, I just really dont like being at a DZ, I was just making an observation on how skydivers judge you by the way you look....

Seriously, I had someone take the piss outta me to his friends when I was waiting for the plane wearing hired gear and my hanwangs as I was getting back in the air to get my licence updated.... I ignored it, but when he then heard I was not the numpty he thought I was he suddenly changed his attitude toward me....

BASE jumpers dont seem to judge others by the way they look, but it seems skydivers do.......

I heard a story of a guy jumping at a DZ where the landing area in front of manifest was a 1000 jump limit, he came in on his mojo he skydives with, dressed in outdoor clothing and a guy with 200 jumps complained to the manifest that how dare such an in experienced person land where he could not. The 200 jump wonder got told that the person he reported was someone with over 3000 jumps and he jumps such a canopy as he has been BASE jumping for over 10 years and prefers to jump that sort of canopy..... skydivers do judge you by your look at the "catwalk" of canopy sports....

PS) Can you keep to the subject of the post, if you have any other comments then PM me.....

[wwarped 0]

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or the rest of us "fall like a brick" types, a typical skydive track (arms in legs almost closed) with your shoulders rolled is apparently better.

from too much base work on big ways, I'd say that is the best track position. (I've seem shots of Douggs just nailing it beautifully...)

my limited experience in a proper BASE environment is from Norway. once I got up to speed, everything went great.

the exit portion needed work...

it just took longer to get separation than most objects permit. I would NOT be pleased doing the same off a 1000' A.

as a narrow stance will detract from stability, is that acceptable on a particular object?

how about jumping with a strong tailwind? wouldn't the best technique differ from a no wind condition?

like other aspects of this sport, I expect "the best" will vary with the local circumstances.

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[BASE_1007 0]

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Obviously there is lots of conflicting information from people about what is best to get the most efficient track, as whats good for one does not mean its good for another

everyone's body is different, everyone's most efficient tracking position is different.
there are several "styles" who work.
find the style who works best for you.

[Calvin19 0]

i dont like dropzones either. and i take skydivers with a grain of salt. I would say skydiveing is the best way to get your track right. try different things. tracking suits are good man. even for bricks.

[pocbase 0]

The bums will never win Lebowski, the bums will never win!
Enfin j'ai trouvé:
Bieeeen

[Mac 1]

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Obviously there is lots of conflicting information from people about what is best to get the most efficient track, as whats good for one does not mean its good for another

everyone's body is different, everyone's most efficient tracking position is different.
there are several "styles" who work.
find the style who works best for you.

ermm, did I not actually say that?

[HydroGuy 0]

I have a friend who can track better feet first on his belly or back better than 99.9% of people can track normally.

I've yet to see video of someone tracking feet first off a big wall...

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[Mac 1]

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I have a friend who can track better feet first on his belly or back better than 99.9% of people can track normally.

I've yet to see video of someone tracking feet first off a big wall...

Thanks, thats a big help....

[HydroGuy 0]

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Thanks, thats a big help

Go to a DZ and track your ass off and find out what works for you.

If you want to be scientific about it, you can buy a cheap GPS setup to calculate glide angle.

Find a way to get over your issues with skydivers and maybe a freeflyer can help you out, maybe even get some in air footage of you for feedback on the ground. I've found a video and a debrief tend to cut the learning curve by at least 50% in skydiving stuff.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[BASE_1007 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Obviously there is lots of conflicting information from people about what is best to get the most efficient track, as whats good for one does not mean its good for another

everyone's body is different, everyone's most efficient tracking position is different.
there are several "styles" who work.
find the style who works best for you.

ermm, did I not actually say that?

obviously you know how the different styles work.
all i want to say is try them all.
noone can tell you whats best for you.

the following is only a opinion, another style may work better for you.....

a good BASE-track is not one perfect body position.
you have to feel the air and change position dynamically.
less adjustments necessary = better track
think of your body as a wing.
the first seconds you have to de-arch more to gain lift, a bit steeper angle to build speed. once you built enough forward speed reduce the angle of attack, but not to much or you stall the track and fall like a brick...
a more straight position is now better to reduce drag.
the full flight is what you can practice while skydiving. play with the angel of attack and the de-arch. ideally the full flight position is almost static, but in turbulent conditions a static position does not work very well.
try to do only small adjustments with arms and legs while the body remains in the sweet spot.
the upper body (first third of the wing) is the part who produces most lift.
forget straight legs, good tracking happens between shoulders and knees. the lower legs are the flaps for the adjustments.
use the last seconds before opening to turn forward speed in to lift, "swoop" the track. change the angel of attack but keep the body position.

good luck

[Mac 1]

Thanks 1007

[gus 1]

Dude I don't buy all the negativity and 'body type' bs. You just gotta believe! Here's what's been working ok for me, with and without the tracking suit:

Slightly head high exit.
The exit and the transition in to the track should be one smooth, quick movement.
Body straight, spine stretched, arse slightly raised, neck relaxed and head just hanging naturally, looking straight down.
Shoulders slightly rounded.
Arms in line with the body but pushing down, slightly below the torso.
Legs straight and only slightly apart, toes pointed. You shold be really straining to lock the legs out, it should be hard work.
Wingsuit-style symmetrical pull in full flight.

It seems to me that there's two things going on: body position and body angle. The position is easier to get right but distance comes from the angle and staying in the angle. Don't be afraid to go steep! The smoother you track the more efficient you are tracking, any time you feel yourself "porpoising" where your angle is seesawing back and forth you are bleeding precious air. Be aggressive and really concentrate on feeling the air.

In terms of skydiving for practice I reckon fix the position and play with the angle.

Maybe Hippo will chip in, he had similar concerns but was cooking by the end of our last big wall trip.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[Mac 1]

The ninth reply was worthwhile and answered my original question.... and it was from someone that I may have just as well spoken to on the phone.....

why did I bother in the first place..........



.

[tommyh 0]

As has been said before, No one body position will work for everybody. So I think the task at hand is to find out wich position works best for you.

I have thought about a theoretical method for finding optimum tracking position in a minimum of skydives. I call this a theoretical method because I haven't tried it myself, being a dropzone phobic base jumper myself. The idea is to slowly change your body position in freefall, moving your body parts and the angle of your body as a whole until it becomes obvious that you are using an ineffeccient body position.

More specifically:
On your first jump, figure out your optimum angle of attack. Don't so much work on width of arms and legs or rolled shoulders, just figure out optimum AOA. Start in a position that is obviously too shallow, then slowly transition to a position that is obviously too steep. When it is determined what feels too steep, move back to what feels optimum.

Second jump: similar idea, Figure out width of legs by moving past what is optimal.

Third and forth jump: Figure out what to do with arms and shoulders by spreading/rolling past optimum(is it possible to roll shoulers to far?)

The reason I stress moving your body position past what is optimum while in freefall is that in some of my jumps where I was trying to figure out how to track well, I would pick a body position before my jump, Emulate that position in the air as best as possible, and not change anything throughout the jump.
How do you know that you're optimizing body position?

I don't think you can figure out what your absolute personal best tracking position is in less than five jumps, But I do believe that you can eliminate a lot of skydives by doing the method I described above. I'm sure whatever you do, fine tuning your track will take many, many jumps.

Oh yeah, smoke pants and a ski jacket with bungy cords in the crotch and sleeves will almost instantly increase your ability to track far and fast. It's cheap and easy too.

Like I said, I haven't tried the method I described above, but if somebody does try it, I'm interested in knowing how it works, so let me know.

Hope all that makes sense

[rfarris 1]

Hi Mac,

I haven't posted here in ages, so take this for what it's worth....

Most of my jumps now days are from 1700+' elevator towers; I'm lazy. I just got back from making a jump as a matter of fact. From what I can remember from the last time I made a skydive from a plane (about 2 years ago), tracking from a plane in no way is similar to tracking on a BASE jump. Can you really tell how well you are tracking from thousands of feet in the air? I can't.
I guess I probably hold the same body position in both situations; toes pointed back towards the tower, feet about 2 feet apart, arms straight and about 18 inches from my hips on either side, palms facing the ground and hands cupped. My pelvis is cupped also, as if I was laying on one of those exercise balls. I tend to have my chin on my chest because I like to watch the lights between my legs. It's a visual thing.
I start all of my tracking jumps from a gainer because I feel I am in better control of my body position once I rotate around to belly to earth. I try to be in my tracking position when I am in a position to where I am on my back and I am looking back at the tower. Then once I rotate to my belly to earth position, it's just a matter of feeling the relative wind on my stomach and making the necessary body position adjustments to stable my self. From this position, if I don't feel like I'm getting the seperation from the tower like I want, I will rotate my shoulders up more towards the horizon, and drop my feet lower, while still maintaining the cup in my hips.
But hey, usually from 1700+' towers, there is enough tail wind that tracking is not that big of a deal anyway.

Rod

[pocbase 0]

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The ninth reply was worthwhile and answered my original question.... and it was from someone that I may have just as well spoken to on the phone.....

why did I bother in the first place..........

Dude, seriously!

Hydroguy nailed it when he told you to get over your issues with skydivers.
Don't know why you're getting so aggro or what point you're trying to prove, this is dropzonedotcom after all and you of all people should know better. Why didn't you start a thread in Blinc or the UK BASE board? For one Blinc would be better off without you, magot and mtnlion ranting on about smack and coke....

Just go do some skydives damit!

Edited to add attachment...

The bums will never win Lebowski, the bums will never win!
Enfin j'ai trouvé:
Bieeeen

[d_goldsmith 1]

No graphic of me smoking a bowl with the devil?

I've got this really hardcore group of gaurdian angels that need a free paid vacation.
~Dan Osman

[Mac 1]

Thanks as there is some decent information in this thread once found....
....and cracking artwork pocbase, very talented, very cool.Made my morning that did.

But if you are that bothered about what is being posted at BLiNC why not post something there yourself and make a stand about it?

Thanks again for some really helpful information here, appreciate it.

[pocbase 0]

... Thanks for the compliments...

There has been nothing really worth replying to on Blinc lately, apart from a brilliant story Truckerbase wrote, the rest has just been rambling about how Tom A is an ass hole, smack vs blow or even Nike shoes at the best price...... That's without counting the spam you get from Mick to go vote for him as best dj of the year or some crap... and I don't even like house music...

And you're right, I don't like being shot down...

That's for the thread hijack

Now if with all the advice you have been given you don't make it to above the road I would urge mods to ban you from here for 6 months..... 14 days if you're not above the river.

Take care bro, good luck with the tracking (no sarcasm, I mean it)

poc

The bums will never win Lebowski, the bums will never win!
Enfin j'ai trouvé:
Bieeeen

[sabre210 0]

Gus exaggerates saying i was cooking it. I was doing okay for sure, but my best track is his worst and i'm still pulling a lot lower than him so there you go.

Body mass to surface area does make a difference i am absolutely sure. Gus denies it cos he's 3stone and 8ft tall so what does he care. However, i do agree that you work with what you've got and turn your build into your asset. You have mass then you can use that to build up speed quickly. The trick is converting downward speed into horizontal speed. Don't ask me how....I'm struggling myself but getting better for sure.

Nailing the exit and transition is imperitive. For kick ass tracks you can not waste any altitude at the top, so a speedy but smooth and efficient transition is essential. followed by a disciplined and rigid body postiton.

Technique wise, I'll leave that to people who CAN track like Moritz and Gus (although if truth be known i've smoked them both on 2way jumps and they both know it).

One thing is for sure. You want to get good at tracking, you just got to put the time in and make those jumps off cliffs. It's something you get a feel for.

ian (aka hippo) thanks gus.

[sabre210 0]

Oh, and i jump homemade smoke pants and not a professionally manufactured tracking suit.

I definitely think a PF suit is worth investing in. My last jump at ITW i had the smokepants blow out at the bottom of the left leg which put me instantly into a sharp left turn which made for interesting visuals.

ian