DZ selection: Does apparently unimportant complacency matter?

[PennQuaker 0]

Hello from a Newbie with one tandem jump that was a lot of fun! After a spontaneous visit to a wind tunnel got me hooked on the idea, I tried out a tandem jump with the local drop zone.

My first jump was a really enjoyable experience, but I did wonder about two things that I thought were violations of proper procedure, although I didn't feel endangered. First, it is my understanding that (for a reason I don't quite understand) USPA requires member drop zones to issue altimeters even to tandem students, which the drop zone didn't do. Second, the couple before us got ready to jump as the pilot had switched off the green light. My instructor yelled at them several times to stop, but they didn't hear him. After they were out a few seconds late, my instructor after a short (my memory of time might not be very reliable ) hesitation decided to go for it, too. We made it home fine, and I enjoyed the flight too much to really worry about this apart from the possibility of my khakis turning brown if we were to land on one of the fields around us. Nonetheless, my understanding from other sorts of aviation is that you don't ignore the PIC's commands, lights, etc. (In the days of old that'd get you keelhauled... )

Thus my question to the board would be whether I should take apparent complacency in obvious but little matters as a sign that people at that drop zone might be complacent about non-obvious but big matters, too. (Let's say it's really a little too gusty for student skydivers, but then again instructors and the plane need to earn their keep, or whatever examples one could think of.) It could, of course, also be that I'm a bit too much of a beancounter temperament. I really can't tell and have no comparison. I didn't ask at the zone because I felt if I were to learn skydiving there questioning the judgment of someone with a couple thousand jumps wouldn't be a good introduction.

[theonlyski 3]

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My first jump was a really enjoyable experience, but I did wonder about two things that I thought were violations of proper procedure, although I didn't feel endangered. First, it is my understanding that (for a reason I don't quite understand) USPA requires member drop zones to issue altimeters even to tandem students, which the drop zone didn't do.

USPA requires that all students have a visually accessible altimeter, but there are DZ's that don't give them to tandem students. Much the same way that they sometimes don't tell them anything more than how to arch.

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Second, the couple before us got ready to jump as the pilot had switched off the green light. My instructor yelled at them several times to stop, but they didn't hear him. After they were out a few seconds late, my instructor after a short (my memory of time might not be very reliable ) hesitation decided to go for it, too.

There's a bunch of reasons he might have switched off the green light. The pilot can't reasonably get up, come back and close the door or tell you to sit down. But it is bad ju-ju to ignore the light going off. You never know what could be going on that required him to flip it off.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[peek 20]

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First, it is my understanding that (for a reason I don't quite understand) USPA requires member drop zones to issue altimeters even to tandem students, which the drop zone didn't do.

(Disclaimer: If you are not a USPA member you may disregard. I'm not talking to you.)

Well, shame on them and shame on the instructors.

What is a shame is that it is such an easy BSR to comply with. How much work does it take to put an altimeter on a student?

I know, I know, I've heard it all before. "Tandems are passengers and are not students, blah, blah." (But if you think that, you are in denial. Read the BSRs, read the Glossary. It is very unambiguous.

Having an altimeter on your tandem student is your backup. What if you find that your altimeter does not work on the climb to altitude? (Yeah, right, you'll borrow someone elses. What if you are your student are the only skydivers in the C182?)

So much additional safety for so little work, but so many excuses as to why not do it. Sometimes I think people work harder trying to make excuses than just doing the work.

[slotperfect 7]

First: my personal opinion . . . I always put a visual altimeter on my tandem students. It is an altitude reference for them (especially if I have trained them to release the drogue), and it is a backup for me (has come in handy).

Next: the USPA grey area . . . USPA BSRs (SIM paragraph 2-1 K. 2.) is the reference. Notice that some of the equipment that is mandatory for the tandem student is provided indirectly through the Tandem Instructor (e.g. piggyback harness and container system, canopies, AAD). Other equipment is provided directly to the student (e.g. helmet). Two arguments can be made and both are based on interpretation. 1) If the Tandem Instructor is providing the other mandatory items to the student because the Instructor is wearing them, the same is true of the visually accessible altimeter and 2) The visually accessible altimeter is intended to be worn by the student (as in helmet).

In my opinion, a DZO is still in compliance with BSRs if he does not put an altimeter on Tandem Student's wrist (interpretation #1 above). Whether or not it is the right thing to do is another discussion.

Regarding exiting after the green light has gone out - there is no FAR or BSR reference for this . . . this is a DZ policy issue. I know of some DZs that require the green light to be on for you to exit (usually an airspace issue), and others that will support an Instructor's call to exit after it has gone out based on his visual assessment of his location over the ground and ability to make the primary landing area.

There may not be any complacency at all . . . most of this depends on the DZ policy for each situation.

Arrive Safely

John

[Bertt 0]

"...have no comparison..."
Unless you're out in the middle of nowhere, you can easily make a comparison by visiting another DZ. If the cost of doing another tandem is an issue, just pack a lunch and hang out at a DZ for a while and see what kind of vibe you get. If you stay out of the way, nobody will mind. If you do a tandem, they'll appreciate the business. People pay to go to airshows all the time, and a DZ is pretty much a free airshow.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Yes it maters. Ask them why they did these things. The answers may be more illuminating than the acts.

[jshiloh 0]

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the USPA grey area . . . USPA BSRs (SIM paragraph 2-1 K. 2.) is the reference. Notice that some of the equipment that is mandatory for the tandem student is provided indirectly through the Tandem Instructor (e.g. piggyback harness and container system, canopies, AAD). Other equipment is provided directly to the student (e.g. helmet). Two arguments can be made and both are based on interpretation. 1) If the Tandem Instructor is providing the other mandatory items to the student because the Instructor is wearing them, the same is true of the visually accessible altimeter and 2) The visually accessible altimeter is intended to be worn by the student (as in helmet).

In my opinion, a DZO is still in compliance with BSRs if he does not put an altimeter on Tandem Student's wrist (interpretation #1 above). Whether or not it is the right thing to do is another discussion.

I think that's a stretch of an interpretation. The "indirectly" supplied equipment (harness, container, AAD, canopy) are all a part of a single system, and referred to as such in the BSR. The altimeter is a completely separate piece of equipment. Additionally, the BSR does not merely say that an altimeter is required...it specifies a "visually accessible" altimeter. The only way an instructor's altimeter is visible to the student is if the instructor consciously and intentionally shoves his wrist in front of the student.

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Regarding exiting after the green light has gone out - there is no FAR or BSR reference for this . . . this is a DZ policy issue. I know of some DZs that require the green light to be on for you to exit (usually an airspace issue), and others that will support an Instructor's call to exit after it has gone out based on his visual assessment of his location over the ground and ability to make the primary landing area.

This is flat out wrong. While there is no rule that specifically addresses a "green light," FAR 91.3 specifies "The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." This is a blanket, catch-all rule that basically establishes that the pilot is the final authority and is in command of what goes on. You do what the pilot tells you, period. If the pilot indicates that you are not to jump, you don't jump. This is not open to DZ interpretation or subject to DZ "policy." Even if it were, it's stupid to disobey it. There are many reasons why a pilot would turn off the green light, many of which can present a very real and substantial risk of injury or death to jumpers. For all you know, another aircraft has improperly entered the airspace.

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There may not be any complacency at all . . . most of this depends on the DZ policy for each situation.

Even absent the FAR, BSR, and common sense, going strictly with your interpretation, I think it's clear that there was a problem here. The original message indicated that one of the instructors "yelled at" the jumpers NOT to go because the green light went out. That indicates that DZ "policy" is to not go when the light is out.

I would suggest that when you observe complacency such as this you bring it to the attention of staff members (preferably, the owner or manager). Don't be confrontational about it, simply explain that this is what happened and you were curious as to whether or not this was an issue. If the owner brushes it off as nothing, find a new DZ because it's highly likely that they are complacent about other, more important issues as well.

[slotperfect 7]

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The "indirectly" supplied equipment (harness, container, AAD, canopy) are all a part of a single system, and referred to as such in the BSR. The altimeter is a completely separate piece of equipment. Additionally, the BSR does not merely say that an altimeter is required...it specifies a "visually accessible" altimeter. The only way an instructor's altimeter is visible to the student is if the instructor consciously and intentionally shoves his wrist in front of the student.

A perfectly reasonable interpretation - my point is that the guidance is ambiguous enough that multiple interpretations are possible.

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You do what the pilot tells you, period.

I agree with that statement. Re-reading the OP it was actually his Tandem Instructor that tried to stop the jumpers in front of him, then making the choice to exit. Your point is valid - giving it some more thought I think all of us should interpret an extinguished green light the same as a red light . . . permission to exit the aircraft is no longer granted. I definitely think that could be made clearer at some DZs . . . there are lots of signs and other guidance telling jumpers what their actions should be when a particular light comes on, but in cases of aircraft with a green light only, I don't recall seeing any signs telling jumpers what their actions should be if that light goes out.

Arrive Safely

John

[PennQuaker 0]

Thank you all for your replies. The impression I'm getting from the discussion here is about the one I had: Nor a clear-cut red flag, but clearly also not a place that takes pride in dotting all the Is and crossing all the Ts. Bertt, I'll definitely try out some other places, too, to get a comparison--it's fun, and the constraint is more driving. (A few years it would have been money--it seems you never have both at once...)

[davelepka 4]

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Regarding exiting after the green light has gone out - there is no FAR or BSR reference for this . . . this is a DZ policy issue. I know of some DZs that require the green light to be on for you to exit (usually an airspace issue), and others that will support an Instructor's call to exit after it has gone out based on his visual assessment of his location over the ground and ability to make the primary landing area.

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This is flat out wrong. While there is no rule that specifically addresses a "green light," FAR 91.3 specifies "The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft." This is a blanket, catch-all rule that basically establishes that the pilot is the final authority and is in command of what goes on. You do what the pilot tells you, period.

That's right, and there's nothing that says the green going out means 'don't jump' at the DZ in question. The pilot may turn off the green light after they have reached a certain distance from the DZ.

Just like you give the pilot a location for the green light to come on, let's say '.2 miles before the DZ', you could also give them a location at which to shut it off, let's say '1 mile past the DZ'. This would give the tandem guys a heads up as to how far out they are, and let them make the call as to 'go and dump high', or 'go-around and get out closer to the DZ'.

Beyond that, there may be a red light which is used to indicate 'do not jump' anytime the pilot needs to stop any further exits.

As to the altimeter issue, there is also a lot that we don't know. Maybe an altimeter was dropped and broke that morning, putting them down an altimeter for the day. Then they were flying back to backs, and all of their altimeters were on the previous load and they couldn't get them to the tandem students for the load in question. Should they have held up the plane or bumped the tandems because they didn't have student altimeters?

Again, the one report from a person who has been to one DZ and made one tandem should hardly be used as grounds to call 'foul' on a DZ. Just as easily as the problems could be persistant and systematic at the DZ in question, they could also be rare and not what they appear to be.

[rowet 0]

For some reason these questions screamed lawyer to me. For the green light issue though. Could the light of gone off because the bulb burned out? possible as our red light it out right now in our plane. And just cause a green light is on doesn't mean you need to exit. I am no green light jumper and just got bitched at by a TI and complemented on for not jumping when the green light went on by a camera guy on the same jump. (high winds aloft going against jump run but winds below 3K against jump run means I shouldn't get out 2 miles away from the DZ, but the TI thought I needed to get out even though I still waited 20 seconds after the green light and still just made it back:)

The "too gusty for student jumpers" ..... depends on the DZ but most are strict on no jumping over 14 but that doesn't mean the winds don't change from the time of exiting the airplane to the time of landing