oops (2-18-05)

[eb66to77 0]

Ray, I think you are all over the don't get caught point of view. I am not sure of all the endangered/protected species issue there but if you're not getting caught then it will never be known.

[TVPB 0]

Hello again Ray

Some great points.

Even though some people will disagree, the park rangers and their leaders and the society that created them ARE PART OF THE so alled "SUPERIOR" human race. To me, this negates your argument that the human race is superior. There are members within our race that dilute the quality. There are also many that add to the quality.

The reality is that some humans deserve less respect than the chimps you mention. I'll bet Chimpanzees don't stop other Chimps from swinging from the trees & having fun. They might have disputes but they DO play. But humans do try to stop other humans from jumping from cliffs. Go figure huh!

My point is that if we (BASE jumpers) are to truly prove our superiority as a race, we should enjoy our jumping whilst at the same time not contributing to the decline of other species and the environment. Whether you want to beleive this or not, there are locations where BASE jumpers damage the environment. There are many places where they look after it too. POSITIVE IMPACT IS DONE BY SUPERIOR PEOPLE.

Regarding rangers and the park system. There HAS to be some level of protection because the reality is without protection, the human race WOULD trash, blow up, mine, build on, concrete, etc every inch of the planet if there wasn't some level of control. Whether you or any other jumper want to admit it or not, places like El Cap look extremely impressive and you would be bitterly disappointed to see it disappear. There is a bit of the environmentalist in all of us.

The dispute with the park system is not about protection but the level of impact that any particular activity has on the envvironment & prohibition.

r.e. jumping responsibility, what about El Cap and prohibition? Did we have a chance before? Who blew it? Jumpers should be accountable for their actions & the park system should be fair in its dealings.

Its just like BASE jumping itself. Why not let anyone BASE jump at anytime, anywhere without training??? After all, we are superior!!!! Because the absolute majority of BASE jumpers beleive that there should be some level of control so that people are kept alive and our sites are preserved from authoritarian control due to site burning. I am personally happy for ALMOST anyone to jump ALMOST anywhere. BUT NOT EVERYONE EVERYWHERE.

Its easy to get support from BASE jumpers when you are critisising national park rangers.

Tom

p.s. I'm fishing ;) R U biting?

Luv your work.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[RayLosli 11]

Its easy to get support from BASE jumpers when you are criticizing national park rangers.
.......

That is true.

Ya but we are only talking about the right to use a little piece of air for just a minute of free fall.

You Have the Right to Jump
If someone say's you cant use a minute of freefall. Then it's your right to Take it.

We air not talking about taking pot-shots at them with a .22 or Poisoning them
with insecticides in the Food-Chain or Climbing up on a rope and staring at them
with a Camera lens for an hour.

Falcons can share the air with us for a moment of there lives.
They will still thrive, Nest, Fly and Hunt.

They call it steeling (air delivery) ****BIG EXCUSE
Sensitive Falcons Nesting **** BIG EXCUSE
Trespassing on Public Park property **** BIG EXCUSE

They will use any excuse to say no to you. It will never end.

Getting out to nature. Getting several good hours of hiking and good times with your friends.
Then you got to steel a piece of air for a moment of Free-fall

Don't get me wrong I love to watch all Raptors fly and Hunt.
I work outside for a living most of the time.and I always take a moment to watch and smile when
They fly.

They want to Fly ,,, well my friend .... So Do I
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[RhondaLea 3]

Quote

They will use any excuse to say no to you. It will never end.

In my experience, this is true. I worked in the state park system, not federal, but my experience with rangers is that they are generally law enforcement-oriented only, with little regard for that which they are sworn to protect. Most of the rangers I knew were rejects from the state police academy.

That being said, whether or not rangers use "wildlife protection" as an excuse for their personal vendettas or otherwise, they still have legitimate and compelling reason to preclude anyone from trespassing into protected areas.

As for the alleged superiority of humankind, I suggest continuing education. I'd start with Temple Grandin and Animals in Translation.

Humans are not the end all and be all of the universe.

rl

P.S. No, I'm not a treehugger. I support hunting and fishing. I eat meat. On the other hand, I have--with my own hands--ended the lives of countless animals who could no longer survive in the wild as the result of human thoughtlessness.

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

...my experience with rangers is that they are generally law enforcement-oriented only, with little regard for that which they are sworn to protect. Most of the rangers I knew were rejects from the state police academy.

While you do see those types in the NPS, there are also a great many who became rangers because they wanted to be out in nature.

One does not, for example, become a Tuolumne backcountry ranger because one wishes to be a cop. That guy is out there because he wants to be out there.

It's generally been my experience that the NPS rangers I've known have more often fallen into the "want to be outdoors" category than the "couldn't make it as a real cop" category.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TVPB 0]

I agree with the np control thing.

Our national park honcho's and the politicians have given us a one paragraph response of "no you can't jump" which I find unacceptable. Not because they said we are not allowed, but because they did not give any logical reasoning or the opportunity for is to challenge that reasoning. Fact is, the reasoning may not exist or it is unsatisfactory. And their method of control is dictatorial. It is very undemocratic.

Lets face it, democracy is a myth or theory that exists in some text book. Just like communism. You would be hard pressed to find those ideologies anywhere in the world. & George Orwell had it right when he wrote his book "1984". He was about 20 to 30 years out but he got it right.

But most park rangers I have met are definitely in it for location & lifestyle. They have to enforce some rules that their bosses give them, and are quite often apologetic and not 100% committed to the enforcement, but it is their job. Their are certain locations where they take it too far (Y ??). That is usually due to a localised micro-culture. The new guys get influenced by the bosses or some of the old guys.

rl - I'd love to meet up with you and have a chat. You are one very philosophical person.

Happy Jumping . . . . No . . . . Happy Flying

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[clint 1]

Hey Avery,

Can you email me? [email protected]

Insurance question.\

-

Clint MacBeth
Skydive Moab 435 259 JUMP
M.O.A.B. Mother Of All Boogies Sept 19 - 23, 2012

[RhondaLea 3]

Quote

While you do see those types in the NPS, there are also a great many who became rangers because they wanted to be out in nature.

I accept that as factual, because I did know a few of those too. Not many, but a few, which is why...

Quote

It's generally been my experience that the NPS rangers I've known have more often fallen into the "want to be outdoors" category than he "couldn't make it as a real cop" category.

...I conclude that I have insufficient information to understand the animosity of the NPS for BASE jumpers. As a matter of habitat protection policy, the regulations have the potential to make sense. (There's an equivocal statement if ever there was one.) As a practical matter, the apparent obsession with the capture of otherwise innocuous BASE jumpers seems a little nuts, particularly when such obsession and legalistic adherence to regulations has been the proximate cause of one human death and the indirect cause of another. If there is no damage to the habitat, what's the point of chasing guys with parachutes?

But that's the question. Is there, in fact, no damage? I don't know the answer to that question.

In my younger years, I worked as a naturalist and rehabilitator. I never cared what people did in the park--and they did a lot--unless their activities interfered with the critters or caused harm to the habitat. On the other hand, during that time, I learned to generally dislike--with passionate intensity--my own species, because many of my fellows felt compelled to leave their spoor in everlasting ways. To me, there is almost nothing worse than having to kill an animal because some thoughtless person caused it irreparable damage.

Given that, it would seem to me that there are likely other instances similar to the one under discussion in this thread and that those cases have led the rangers to develop a philosophical hard-on for BASE jumpers.

Maybe that angle deserves a closer look.

rl

[RayLosli 11]

TVPB:
rl - I'd love to meet up with you and have a chat. You are one very philosophical person.
...........................


Don't know about Philosophical...?

Most who know me say I'm a.... Occasionally funny, Smart-Ass... Cynical, Over Opinionated-Prick - and- Educational, Bankrupt,Half-Assed Road Scholar. Who only thinks he can BASE jump.

Maybe some jump, Beer and some talk sometime
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[78RATS 0]

I'm just as natural as any one of those Falcons . . .


God Damn Right

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[TVPB 0]

Hi Ray

I meant Rhonda Lea.

Ray - we've already had some chats & done some jumps together. Don't you remember BD2000 and KL Tower 2001?

I'd love to meet up again though. I was not far off your neck of the woods Nov 2004 (Vancouver & Seattle), but did not have enough time to travel further south. Will get there some day.

CYA Ray

Tom

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[jalisco 0]

Out of a couple of relatives and a couple of acquantainces who are or were park rangers of various ilks, I can say that none of the ones I know had the slightest interest in law enforcement as far as I can tell. They got there because they decided, outdoorsmen that they were sitting in classes in college, that they didn't want to wind up behind a desk all day somewhere.

I wonder if the the park service, trying to maintain some sort of wildness (or at least naturalness) aren't a little overwhelmed by the teaming masses of intransigent humans streamin through "their" parks, and don't look on everybody as a problem.

I also wonder if they aren't a little proprietary too. Like, as long as you're just a bovine tourist passing through on well-worn trails to gawk at the park, and they've got one up on you (welcome to our park, got any questions?), they're fine. But if you're more agressive in your approach to nature, learning things or seeking a relationship with nature that's beyond (or at least outside of) their experiences, then you threaten their proprietary position. Like, you can all come meet my girlfriend, but don't be touching anything past the elbows...

[FIREFLYR 0]

I read something in the newspaper that was kind of along these lines..as far as what was done and the punishment. Just check it out it's interesting what he did and what the punishment was compared to a parachute opening and the punishments for that ...I'm hung over so pardon my lack of um......anyhow...here it is:
SAN JOSE
COPTER PILOT FINED FOR HARASSING MURRES
A salinas helicopter pilot was fined $3000 Wednesday for harassing a threatened species of bird while filming a marathon from the air.
James Cheatham, 62, owas also ordered by a US magistrate to keep his helicopter atleast 2500 feet away from common murres- deep diving, black and white seabirds- at Castle Roch Murre Colony in Monterey county.
A federal jury convicted Cheatham in November of a misdemenor charge of airborne harassment of birds.
Cheatham, president of verticare, an aviation company in Salinas said he wqas helping film the Big Sur International marathon on April 27, 2003, and denied he aimed his helecopter at the murres.
-Henry K. Lee

"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest"
"There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act"

[RayLosli 11]

Ray - we've already had some chats & done some jumps together. Don't you remember BD2000 and KL Tower 2001?

...............

Aahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I just remembered just a few minutes ago.
KL tower 2001
Were you the Croatian that said my brand new, Checkered - Red & White- Rig that I sewed up and was so proud of....

Looked like the... Croatian national Flag
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[badenhop 0]

Yup, he's the one.
He also said something about "Bag Itch".

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[TVPB 0]

Either I am very forgettable (a big possibility) or the shrooms in Oregon are incredible.

TVPB => Tom Begic - fat bastard Australian (Croatian descent), guy who jumped with DW a lot, Beyond Extreme producer, . . . . aahhh forget it . . .don't worry. I'll see you somewhere sometime.

I can't remember seeing your checkered rig.

See, looks like we are both senile!!!!

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[RayLosli 11]

TVPB../ Tom Begic
This is Begic what the hell... your profile say Croatian so I just assumed this whole fucking time that was your
Residence not ancestry of decent or immigrated from
DaaaaaaMMMM.! ...DuuuuuuuuuuHh...
You are not senile !!! ...I am just Stupid
You Ozzy Prick ,,, quit trying to confuse Me.. You are doing a damn good job of it.
Well Hell that was sure easy to figure out.
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