Pin v. Velcro

[stilettodude 0]

Since your bored........pin vs. velcro????????
Philip

"HOW LOW CAN YOU GO?"

[Faber 0]

he he
I personal havnt jumped a pin rig(ordered mine while i were injuried).

I have heared from most Jumpers that you should start whit a velcro.So ill recomend that aswell,ill try to find Tom´s post about new in the sport

EDIT: http://www.dropzone.com/features/MyFirstBASERig.shtml

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Zennie 0]

Quote

pin vs. velcro?

I'm up in the air on that right now. My main rig has been a two-pin rig, but I'm starting to wonder if I'm distorting my pack job when I close the thing. I just put my primary main in in my Reactor and I'm going to put a few jumps on that to see if it has any impact on heading performance.

I'll keep y'all posted.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Faber 0]

please tell aswell if you discover somthing pni vs velcro.i thourgth on it the other way but cant test it at the time

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[TomAiello 25]

There have been several very good threads on this topic at BLiNC. I'm pressed for time just now, but I'll see if I can dig them up and post a link tomorrow.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Dd0g 0]

I hate pin rigs; they suck. Velcro is much better.

How's that for brevity?

Peace,

D-d0g

+~+~+~+~
But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

[ManBird 0]

Quote

I'm going to put a few jumps on that to see if it has any impact on heading performance.

Don't say things like that. ;)

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[ManBird 0]

I hear from everyone that wingsuit BASE should be done with a pin rig. Are there differeing views?

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

I hear from everyone that wingsuit BASE should be done with a pin rig. Are there differing views?

No. Wingsuit BASE definitely needs to be done with a pin rig. I know only one jumper who still makes wingsuit jumps on a velcro rig, and even he stops short of recommending that anyone else do it.
Pins are recommended for wingsuit flights by pretty much everyone who is a recognized expert on the subject, including Bird-man, every major BASE gear manufacturer, and that Russian fellow with all the BASE, wingsuit and BASE wingsuit jumps.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[ManBird 0]

That's what I thought. I'm assuming Doug's reply was taking WSs into consideration.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[Dd0g 0]

Quote

That's what I thought. I'm assuming Doug's reply was taking WSs into consideration.

Yep, wingsuit stuff is most certainly the exception. Otherwise, pin rigs are more trouble than they are worth.

Just one Dogs opinion. . .

Peace,

D-d0g

+~+~+~+~
But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

[Zenister 0]

Quote

Yep, wingsuit stuff is most certainly the exception. Otherwise, pin rigs are more trouble than they are worth.

Just one Dogs opinion. . .

can i ask why? i'm looking at getting a pin rig and since birdman BASE is definately on my to do list i figured getting one now would save getting another rig later, but i'm very interested to hear as many opinions as possible on the subject..(here and elsewhere)

[ManBird 0]

I'm definitely not the authority on this, but even I know, do NOT go pin first. Do NOT go right into wingsuit BASE. Get BASE experience first.

Speaking of which, I'm considering wingsuit BASE myself, which would require getting current on BASE again. Doug and/or Dwayne, I know you're in Portland, or nearby at least. I may have to hit you bastards up for some guidance.

I'll PM or e-mail if/when I've decided. I know I want to, but I have to make sure I need to, er... something like that. Damn, I sound like a chick.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[Dd0g 0]

Quote

Speaking of which, I'm considering wingsuit BASE myself, which would require getting current on BASE again. Doug and/or Dwayne, I know you're in Portland, or nearby at least. I may have to hit you bastards up for some guidance.

Drop a note any time; happy to meet up and perhaps do some jumps. I'm in PDX until mid-June, and then moving to der Schweitz after that.

Regarding my distaste for pin rigs, a quick synopsis:

1. There are known fatalities caused by packing errors in pin rigs (leaving pullup cord in, etc.); I know of no fatalities caused by velcro rigs (at least since the introduction of the shrivel flap).

2. Packing pin rigs is a pain in the ass, and generally requires more pushing and shoving of the packjob to get it closed which could, theoretically, make a less-symmetrical packjob.

3. Doing a bridle check on a velcro rig is piss simple -follow the bridle to the shrivel flap, that's it. Pin rigs are harder to check before jumping, doubly so if it is dark, or if one is doing a static line jump solo and needs to manually feel out whether the bridle is routed ok, pins are ok, etc.

4. Statistically, a velcro rig opens based on thousands of individual velcro "fingers" ripping independently of one another. The collective result of the shrivel flap opening up therefore is likelty to have a highly predictable envelope within which it happens, as the sum total of those thousands of individual "tears" is governed by statistical dynamical math. In contrast, a pin rig is 100% dependent on one (or two) points of "failure" and the behavior of those points is going to have far more outliers than the collective behavior of the velcro. If even 1 out of 1,000 single-pin openings behaves erratically, that's a big issue for me - what if that is the one jump I take really low, etc? Velcro behaves like water flowing over a rock, consistent.

5. Keep It Simple, Stupid. Velcro is, my itself, simpler than a pin setup. The pin setup (outside of wingsuiting) has no benefit over velcro, but is more complex. Thus, removing the pins from the system makes it simpler, more predictable, and safer.

6. Packing a pin rig takes loger than a velcro-closed rig (even if only a minute or two), Packing a pin rig also requires one more tool (pullup cord), which is one more thing to cart around and potentially forget.

Anyway, that's my highly-personal analysis of the pin/velcro situation. Others, I am sure, disagree.

Peace,

D-d0g

+~+~+~+~
But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

[Faber 0]

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yep, wingsuit stuff is most certainly the exception. Otherwise, pin rigs are more trouble than they are worth.

Just one Dogs opinion. . .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


can i ask why

D-dog just cant find out in which order to close it
D-dog i have a reactor whith a fox225 if the prce is rigth,its good used but no blood(sorry my black humor,but im nearly sure im the only one who have trasslanded it).
In Swiss all summer?

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[flyinryan 0]

Disclaimer: I have jumped both velcro and pin rigs but I am NO expert. Just my opinion but...

I disagree with D-dog. I think a pin rig is far superior to a velcro rig and here's why:

You control the force needed to open the container. You can have the container secure for a high jump that may include areials or you can have the container open with next to no pull force for very low jumps.

THIS IS ALSO A NEGATIVE!!!! It is one more thing to screw up...moral of the story: Don't fuck this up.

Now I feel that a pin rig can do ANYTHING a velcro rig can plus more. Yes, there are "moving parts" to screw up but I feel that if you are BASE jumping you are smart enough to handle it.

BASE 853

[Dd0g 0]

Quote

You control the force needed to open the container. You can have the container secure for a high jump that may include areials or you can have the container open with next to no pull force for very low jumps.

This can also be accomplished with a velcro rig by partially "priming" the velcro.

Quote

Now I feel that a pin rig can do ANYTHING a velcro rig can plus more. Yes, there are "moving parts" to screw up but I feel that if you are BASE jumping you are smart enough to handle it.

Haha - you must not have jumped with many Aussies

Peace,

D-d0g

+~+~+~+~
But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

[ManBird 0]

Quote

Drop a note any time; happy to meet up and perhaps do some jumps. I'm in PDX until mid-June, and then moving to der Schweitz after that.

Word, I am without camera, but I'm down for ground crew should a camera be available. I think I'd like to get at least a dozen ground crew trips in before going up again.

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[Basejumperjeff 0]

Just my own two cents, My first rig was a twp pin rig. It was a great decision. I realized this when an experienced jumper showed me something. He put a packed pin rig and a packed velcro rig beside each other and picked them both up by the pc. The pin rig opened, the velcro rig did not. The pins were pretty tight too. The comment about misrouting the bridle and forgetting pull-up cords and stuff make me laugh, I know mistakes can happen but if you are not thourogh enough with you pack job to overlook these things, then maybe BASE is not the sport you should be doing.
Just my two cents.

[460 0]

Pin rigs definitely open easier than velcro.

However, the primary danger in pin rigs is a premature dump when going hand held, i.e. arm extension tensions the bridle too much or bridle exposure to the wind during the hand held exit, which could also create tension on the pin(s).

The other significant danger is pin(s) release during movement in a constrained environment, such as some tower climbs. This was the primary reason the first velcro base rig was built. And this was the primary reason Yuri suggested a mod to stiffen the closing flap on Vertigo's 2 pin rig.

What is needed is a slightly more user friendly system that incorporates some velcro to remedy these problems. Also, velcro is noisy allowing the wearer to be readily conscious of any problems. Interestingly, I trained in a loft by the person who co-invented the shrivel flap with Phil Smith, BASE #1.

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[flyinryan 0]

One way of incorporating velcro into a pin rig would be to place a peice of velcor on the bridle and mate it to a peice of velcro just bellow the pins (after market stuff here). This way you could go hand held and any bridle flap would be stoped at the velcro.

BASE 853

[Basejumperjeff 0]

I do not diagree with your points, but I do feel that as with any equipment we use there are aspects that we need to pay attention to, enough slack in the bidle while going hand held, not to much slack while going hand held, longer delays, more than two seconds, require a stowed deployment instead of hand held. Climbing within an constained area requires the jumper to be aware of his or her gear, a quick feel with hand will tell you if your bridle has been snagged. I almost always jump with a buddy so I have a second set of eyes for pin checks.

I think with all the advancements over the past few years we all have to be aware of the dangers that introducing new equipment into the sport can create, Just as with the velcro rig, someday someone will ask if they should buy a new fancy type of container or the good old pin rig.

I personnally think we will start to see a decline in the sales of velcro rigs. Just as we will start to see a increase in the sales of vented canopies. And in 10 years there will be something else we will all be arguing about wether we should buy or not.

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

One way of incorporating velcro into a pin rig would be to place a peice of velcro on the bridle and mate it to a piece of velcro just below the pins (after market stuff here).

DANGER!
The original Prism, from Basic Research, was built this way.
Unfortunately, that extra piece of velcro doesn't shrivel, so a head down deployment can lead to a pilot chute in tow. After the little Aussie reported this to BR, they offered to retrofit existing Prisms and changed the "standard". They still offer this configuration on request. I believe it is a very bad idea.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[flyinryan 0]

please explain the dangerous configuration. If you look at some velcro rigs they have a little velcro square at the bottom of the container that you can stick the bridle to. Is that enough to cause hesitation?

BASE 853

[Dd0g 0]

Quote

please explain the dangerous configuration. If you look at some velcro rigs they have a little velcro square at the bottom of the container that you can stick the bridle to. Is that enough to cause hesitation?

No, I think Tom is referring to velcro added to the closing mechanism of a pin rig. The bit of velcro you are describing is designed to control the bridle when going handheld, thereby preventing it from looping under the back corner of the rig before deployment, and causing a pilot chute in tow.

There is a reported fatality due to this type of bridle "entanglement;" hence the addition of the bit of velcro to control the bridle.

Previously, a poster suggested that unnecessarily complex technology is ok in BASE, since we should all be careful enough in packing to catch potentially fatal errors before they occur.

This is a highly dangerous attitude to have in our sport. A key factor in the relative safety of BASE gear is both its simplicity and its design to minimize the ease with which fatal packing errors can occur. Nowadays, many jumpers around the world do hundreds of jumps a year - while some Americans think 20 or 30 a year is a big deal, this is not globally representative.

With that many jumps being done by that many jumpers, any stupid gear design that makes fatal packing mistakes relatively easier will, in time, cause a fatality. Chiding jumpers for being "careless" in packing gear that is poorly designed sort of misses the whole point - the goal of BASE gear is not only safety but also consistency and ease of use.

I am not referring specifically to pin rigs, to be clear - while I personally think they are marginally more complex than velcro and thus marginally more "dangerous" when used over a deep sample size of jumps, others disagree and in any case these are very small variants being discussed. However, there are other gear and/or rigging choices that can, in fact, increase danger by making it easier to make a fatal packing mistake.

We need look no further than 2002's fatalities to see at least one example of a packing technique that, if done improperly, can (and did) cause a fatality. It is exactly these types of situations - where it is both easy to make a mistake packing, and that mistake would have terrible consequences - that should never - NEVER - be accepted in BASE.

so-called diot-proof technolgy not only protects idiots, but also protects everyone else from the undeniable vagaries of statistical fluctuation.

Peace,

D-d0g

+~+~+~+~
But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.