Skyper

we'll see it this is true. LOL

thank you guys! thanks all of you! I understood from your posts that hard helmet provides better protection on possible bumps to the plane or emergency landing, it also provides a protection during formation jumps and of course it provide better protection on hard landings. after reading your answers and arguments for better protection of the head. And after reading the rules posted by Saskia... "geschikt schoeisel" (proper shoes) caught my attention. The shoes are also very interesting one... On hard landings or even on a bit unsecure landing shoes that protect the foot joint (ankle) are very important. in the Netheralnds "proper shoes"are mandatory till B-licence. However I never saw anyone wearing high (deep) shoes which protect the ankle? Even the totaly beginners jump in running shoes or even totaly flat "all star"shoes. So, hard helet but no ankel protection at all. Hmm.

guys I searched the site for themes about this topic but I couldn't find anything about it. So here it is: Long time ago I jumped with a soft helmet. It was made of leather and stuffed with some kind of sponge. In those old days hard helmet was considered "equipment for beginners and dorks"

on my static line jumps, 4 out of 5 I had a twist. the first one was on the second static line jump. The begin of the twist was a bit lower than my face. The end of the twist was so high that chute could not inflate. I was falling with the speed close to free fall... first I tried to pull the risers but for my feeling they were extremely tight. I checked the hight... 2800... I tried once more, but this time I used all my power and kicked as crazy. after few moments it started to "turn". There were at least 8 twists in it. And finally the twist was resolved... slider came down and chute was fully open. on the subsequent jumps I had twists again but they were "only" 3-4 times twisted. And I always solved them with pulling the risers apart. On tandem jumps is pushing the risers maybe the better option since kicking must probably be much harder than for single's chute.

i did some (ground) experiments for this purpose 1) pulling the risers apart tightens the twist and results in moving the twisted points up from the risers. by kicking with your legs this (tightened) twist is actually used as "point of force" where from the turn is initiated and the twist is resolved. 2) pushing the risers loosens the twist which also results in lowering the twist - the twisted points come closer to the risers. This movement of the twisted points initiates the turning (of parachutist) and twist resolution. conclusion: if your risers are not involved in the twist pushing the risers might be an option. if the twist involves the risers pulling the risers will be more efficient. That's probably the reason why we are all learned to pull the risers apart and not to push them. back to the topic... if the risers are involved in the twist toggles are also in that twist and thus not accessible.

I never thought of that possibility. Hmm. If that is reserve, than is the question how big are the chances that the main will still remain in the container during this shake job. That is the exact reason i bought a hook knife. I cant remember what incident it was, but there have been a couple videos of reserves getting stuck on the tail. can you remember if the main also poped up during this blow job or it remained in the container?

I never thought of that possibility. Hmm. If that is reserve, than is the question how big are the chances that the main will still remain in the container during this shake job.

This is what Wikipedia says. Read last sentence... Horseshoe A "horseshoe" describes a malfunction where a parachute deploys but remains attached to a skydiver by its risers and one other point. This prevents the canopy from opening, and the canopy and lines form a horseshoe shape extending from the risers up and then back down again to the other point where the parachute remains attached to or entangled with the skydiver. This malfunction may occur when the closing pin of a skydiving rig is released from the closing loop and allows the deployment bag to separate the container. Because the pilot chute is still stowed, the malfunction takes on the shape of a horseshoe. This malfunction may also occur if the pilot chute or bridle connecting the pilot chute to the canopy becomes entangled with the skydiver. It is possible, though rare, to experience this type of malfunction when one or more parachute lines entangle with or snag on some portion of the parachute rig.

Screenshots attached. Thank you Brian.

hmm. where in the video did you saw that?

when you spot the PC "walking" to the door the next moment it would probably be out of the door! I consider the door as a mouth of a big vacum-cleaner. The procedure I ever learned for handling this: When you see (your) PC going to the door with no lines out you try to catch it. When you see your PC going to the door and your lines are out (container open) you grab all that mess including PC and you jump out. At this video you can see at 0:04 how quickly his pilow was sucked out of the plane. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDBrdl2sZWs

maybe she just wanted to check your D... lines ;) and any kind of knife in this situation would not help... if you get stuck on your chute on the out side of the plane, the procedure is clear: take position, cut main, pull reserve... crash plane... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF0PJouEWNU

hmm. i think i get your point now. you think if the main is not cutted it remains more or less neatly "down" and the space above reserve is more clear than it would be in the case of breakaway. Correct?

this video shows main-reserve entaglement. there's no horseshoe here. hmm. maybe as somone sugested he pulled reserve at the same as he brokeaway which resulted in entaglement.

What about if the national regulations says that this is the right procedure? So it`s mandatory for every skydiving school? Yes, it sucks. Ever thought about petition or something simmilar for changing that regulation? And of course those things used to attach ripcord to the container maybe it's good idea to request the prohibition of it as well... just refer to that last fatal accident in Cenej in 2008 and similar cases elsewhere. Maybe it's interesting to see this video and time he required to manualy release the risers. I don't know if he released the RSL as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBzgMIdtJm0

How did you make that conclusion? i think that the chances that you get two out in this kind of cases are very big... which means that those two things have real chance of entaglement. And this video just proves this assumption. He almost got engtaglement of main and reserve. It was a pure luck it did not happend! if he brakeaway and preferably also manualy release the risers prior the deployment of reserve and pull reserve, the main would probably jump out from the container as well but would not get enough force to be pulled out of the deployment bag and would be blown away all together. This decresses the chances of entaglement of main and reserve lines. in the first case with both risers still attached and real chance of main deployment the number of points and time period where entaglement can occure is much higher than in the second case. and in this particular case I would frist try to reach for the PC or bridle and pull it manualy before I execute the reserve procedure.

Agree with Morne. with bridle packed in that way PC would have more chance of being stuck in airpocket since it would be closer to your back. regarding brake away vs. just pull reserve: chances of chute engaglement are bigger in the case of two out than brakeaway + reserve. ever, the procedure for brakeaway included the manual release of the risers prior the reserve pull... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBzgMIdtJm0

Hi Mircan thank you for quick response. I read that fatality report and related tread thoroughly. I do understand that main reason for this horseshoe accident was spectra cord. Do you thik this guy would make better chances for survival if he managed to release the risers manualy prior the reserve pull (after brakeaway)? Why would it be needed to release RSL prior brakeaway?

I came to this topic after reading this Fatality Report. In the thread following procedure was advised, and even teached to parachute students for horse-shoe malfunction handling: - disconnect the RSL, - pull breakaway handle, - if risers are still connected, try to remove it manually, - pull reserve handle.

thanks Brick :) I'll certainly follow the reserve procedure. The advices from this site I use to confirm the procedure.

Please practice this on the ground if you're going to use this as your emergency procedures for a horseshoe. It is not the best idea to have differing emergency procedures for different scenerios, because things happen FAST with high speed mals. Adding tasks in between your cutaway and reserve pull aren't usually a good idea, as it is much better to get a reserve over your head than to ride a high speed mal into the ground because you were trying to get clear space to fire your reserve. That being said, I had a non-traditional horseshoe last year. Ever since I was a student I had always rehearsed in my head that in the case of a horseshoe I would cutaway, manually release risers and pull the reserve. It is extremely difficult to manually release your risers in freefall, especially if you have riser covers that don't leave a lot of the riser exposed. I know this because I wasn't able to clear both my risers in freefall before I HAD to pull my reserve. The good thing is that the modern reserve extraction system is pretty resiliant, but it still doesn't make it any less of a dangerous situation. thank u for advice. I'll practice it on the ground. How did your hourseshoe ended?

Thaks Brian, it makes sense. If only one point is attached after cut off the chances for entanglement are smaller. And regarding the low preasure on three ring system and risers in the case of horseshoe. The reserve procedure should be something like: check altimeter, cut main, release risers manualy, pull reserve. if too low, just stanard procedure cut main + pull reserve.

ohh, is it!? Next time I'll take condoms with me

popsjumber, diablopilot, rduch, theonlinsky, thank you all for your quick responses. Now I can sleep a bit better :) I also like the point Rduch made about manualy releasing the risers. It gives at least a feeling that it's possible to do something about it. What is pull-out?

leave them home ;) just take dytter and iPod...