flashvortx

[Quote] Exactly the same goes for God, at one point in Time God was the only rational explanation for the unexplainable.[/Quote] The way we know the world has been changing up until now and it will continue to change. God has been constant through everything. [Quote] Do you eat bacon, where synthetic fibres, eat cheeseburgers, work on a Saturday? If you do any of those things you either don't believe that God's word is unchangeable or are sinning and rationalising it.[/Quote] I’m not a big fan of bacon, however, I’m currently wearing 100% polyester pants, I eat cheeseburgers, and I work whenever I have to. Using that argument shows that you don’t know the basics of the Bible, so I’ll start with the basics. Moses brought the Law of the Old Testament and Jesus came, not to abolish the Law, but to extend and fulfill it (Matt. 5:17). The Law says not to murder, but Jesus came and said not only to not murder, but not even to be angry or insult someone (Matt. 5:21). We shouldn’t only follow through on our oaths, but on our every word. When Jesus came he showed the difference between the flesh and the spirit. “Don't you realize that nothing coming from outside and entering a man can defile him because it doesn't enter his heart but his stomach?” (Mark 7:18-19) The food laws aren’t abolished, but like a lot of the Bible, God doesn’t have the literal sense in mind, but something greater. There are other Laws to which Jesus gave a spiritual application. Instead of fulfilling our oaths, we shouldn’t need to make oaths since we should fulfill every word. We don’t rest on the seventh day because we are able to sanctify every day in the rest of Christ. We don’t need to be physically circumcised anymore because since Jesus, we have a circumcision of our hearts in Christ. We could never have been clean in the flesh, but God afforded us the opportunity, through Jesus, to be spiritually clean. We no longer offer animal sacrifices (which never meant anything to God (Ps. 51:16)). Instead, we offer ourselves as living sacrifices. Starting at Mark 7:18, Jesus was asked about one of his parables and responded, “Are you so dull? Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him unclean? For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body. What comes out of a man is what makes him unclean. For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man unclean.” “For what the Law could not do because it was weak through the flesh, God did. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk by the flesh, but by the Spirit” (Rom. 8:3-4). It’s not me trying to make the Bible say what I want it to say so I can eat what I want. It’s me reading the Bible and reading historical documents. [Quote] when did the "unchanging God" turn his back on the jews of the Bible?[/Quote] When they killed his son?

Well we’re back where we started then. I began with showing that we live in a world where things need a designer, and that folks that don’t believe in a God find it ok that everything they know (outside of the universe itself) requires a designer, but the actual universe, which is much grander than anything else, just happened. I think it takes more faith to say that the universe created itself, but then everything else after that needed a designer. If you don’t believe in faith, how can you believe in science which is dependent upon faith? Science cannot prove that something will happen in the future, only that it has happened in the past. Everything in science relies on faith that it will continue to happen that way.

[Quote] The Bible was written by man. Writing something down does not make it true.[/Quote] The Bible was written over several centuries by 40 authors. Most lived in different eras and locations. The idea that a book that size could be written over so many years by so many different people that had no knowledge of one another and be consistent is one you can’t overlook. The Bible was written by man, but is the word of God. [Quote] Well, we don't know that. So we don't know that everything that we see and use was created by some other being. Therefore, we don't know that there is a "creator."[/Quote] The dirt, planets, and solar systems go hand in hand with the creation of the universe. They basically are the universe. What I was saying is that God created all of that (possibly with a very large bang), and that everything that has been made since then has required a creator.

If God is defined as something outside of our laws/rules/whatever, . That is so totally lame. Your philosophy has a serious FLAW and you can't get around it that way. What's the FLAW? I'll be happy to defend it.

[Quote] What I'm saying to you is that if this realm where God exists can exist, whatever form it may be, if infinity can exist there for God then particles could exist there with the same rule (without a creator).[/Quote] If it’s a completely separate realm, we can’t make any assumptions on what goes on there. Infinity might not even be a concept there, and particles might not even exist. All I was saying is that God cannot be part of our realm. [Quote] Furthermore since there is no single universal measurement and it's all relative you may not believe that infinity is real on earth, but since space doesn't play by the same rules. Infinity may well exist in space, and if you agree that infinity is real, then something can exist from nothing. [/Quote] It doesn’t play by the same rules, but it does play by rules. I don’t agree that infinity is real in our dimension. [Quote] Though quantum mechanics show that particles do exist in a random form without purpose at its lowest levels. [/Quote] Is it not possible that with our current knowledge level, it only seems random? They are constantly learning more and more and changing what we currently think to be fact. Particles can come and go, transport, time travel and do whatever else they like. [Quote] The reason you stole the candy bar was because you're aware of the implications to the other party involved (empathy an sympathy), you realized stealing the candy wasn't going to hurt anyone, you knew that it would probably not be noticed, so you went ahead.[/Quote] Whether you realize that or not, you still know it is wrong. I think it’s a simple argument that people know that certain things are wrong. It doesn’t matter what the penalty or reward is.

Who created the oceans, the dirt, the distant planets and solar systems? There are a lot of things that we see and use that have no known creator. I don't think that the fact that they are complicated, working objects means that they must have a designer/creator. To me, that's where the "that's just the way it is" fails. But again, the idea of "God" seems to be very similar to my "I don't know." Well, I believe that's all spelled out in Genesis. God created the dirt, the planets, and solar systems. My favorite part of all, on day two, He created the skies.

I understand that. There are too many people out there claiming Christianity but living the same lives as everyone else. That is the specific reason I don't going around proclaiming that I'm a follower of Christ (note the difference). I'm not nearly mature and developed enough and I don't want to tarnish the name. It's something that I can feel is starting to change in my life and I get the feeling something big is about to happen in the next few years. However, you can dislike religion because it certainly has a bad name nowadays. But if you look at the reasonability behind God, and get into the Bible and follow what Christ taught, it's a completely different experience. And that's not meant to say I am a strict follower of Christ. I strive to be but I'm not at that point in life yet.

Hell is defined as a life apart from God. We are quite literally in hell right now. It's not the hell that I fear the most, but it does fit the definition.

If God is defined as something outside of our laws/rules/whatever, then I don't think it can have much to do with science as we know it. With that definition, science can't prove it one way or the other. Unless you were saying earlier that science may one day be able to explain God? (And possibly then go on to explain what, if anything, created God?) In which case I would agree that, if some sort of "God" does exist, it is somehow knowable. That is why I consider myself an atheist rather than an agnostic. I'm basing it on the facts of design, cause, reliability, and morality. Everything requires a designer (not everything with one little exception of the universe). Everything needs a cause as to why it happens. There is a general moral standard to Christians and Atheists alike. We live in a very reliable world. Water boils at the same temperature every time (pure water, same atmospheric pressure, etc). Science literally depends upon the reliability of nature. For science to be of any use at all, it demands that once they do something in a test tube, they can do it again. One thing that people don't think about is that science can't prove the continued reliability of nature. They can say that something has happened every day up until now, but they can't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that it will happen again. So science relies on faith. Science and faith aren't at odds. Science demands faith. Though it’s not an absolute proof, God is a reasonable explanation for reliability. I don't think that science will ever be able to completely explain God.

See, to me, that's what the argument for a creator comes down to: "That's just how it is." Which has never worked for me. Sorry, didn't catch the part earlier. I was just saying that everything that we know requires a creator. I didn't mean that's just how it is to try to get my belief across. I was saying that, well, our stuff needs a creator.

Please explain...

See, to me, that's what the argument for a creator comes down to: "That's just how it is." Which has never worked for me. And you're comfortable with comparing the most beautiful, complex, and vast thing in our world to beer and skydiving magazines? I'm not trying to win you over to my way of thinking. Just always trying to understand and figure out how to live comfortably in a world where most people seem to believe differently than I do. And, after all, it's all "belief" and not "fact," either way. It's helpful for me to see "God" as a metaphor, though I'm still trying to figure out the proper translation for it. Perhaps something along the lines of "all that cannot be understood/explained." They are just things that exist. I could use the Large Hadron Collider or the F-22 (both of which neither compare to the splendor of the universe, but did require a creator). I just didn't have the LHC or the F-22 in front of me for a quick example. Yes, it is a belief. However, it is based on scientific fact. I've loved science my whole life and still enjoy learning about it and that has only strengthened my belief in God. Even with a somewhat scientific mind, God does make sense.

Where do you get this from? I don't believe in a "creator." This has nothing to do with whether I believe everything else requires a designer. Actually, I have no idea whether everything that has ever existed required a designer. How would you know such a thing? You would first need to have knowledge of everything that has ever existed, and I don't believe that anyone has anything even close to that. But it does have something to do with things requiring a designer. It's a reality that the things we see and use were created by someone or something. That's just how it is. The only exception seems to be that people that don't believe in a God say it's ok for the universe to have created itself. My N.O. Xplode needed a creator, my Pyramid Hefeweizen needed a creator, Parachutist needs a creator, yet you're comfortable with saying that the most beautiful, complex, and vast thing in our world did not require a creator. I just can't accept that.

Isn't String Theory an attempt to solve Einstein’s problem? Maybe it’s very complex and can’t be solved in a lifetime, or many lifetimes. Either way, at one point in time people knew the Earth was flat and at another, people knew that the Earth was the center of the universe. The way we know the world changes constantly and God’s word stays the same. I don't know how you got the idea, but I absolutely don't think that time is in a single universal measurement. I started learning about time when I was like 10 with Bill Nye the Science Guy. Obviously, I've delved deeper since. So by your way of looking at it, there is no such thing as time and I was created at age 23 and have not moved forward. Time exists but it is relative. There isn't an absolute that I know of. I don't disbelieve the idea that our universe was once very small. I simply don't believe that there once was a random mass and that it spontaneously exploded and now I can watch proxy flying on my iPhone. The Bible doesn't give the specifics on exactly how God created the universe. I don't know where you're going with the particles, but yes I know that electrons seem to move around randomly, and that certain elemental particles have been teleported. There's a lot going on out there, but again the only constant is God's word. Morals don't dictate what we do. I've known that steeling was immoral for as long as I can remember, but I've stolen a candy bar or two when I was a kid. That's where free will is. I knew it was wrong, but took the candy. Morals simply tell us, deep down, what is right. Free will lets us go against it if we need to satisfy ourselves in the now. I’d also like to say thanks for the good debate. I work with less than studious people and don’t get to argue to such an extent very often.

See, this is where the reasonable argument ends. It's fair to ask what caused everything except for what caused God. "God is eternal, so the rules of cause and effect do not apply." Convenient answer, but totally made up, and neither provable nor dis-provable at this very moment. I'll just stick with "There is a lot I don't know, and I'm OK with that, but I'll continue trying to learn." It's very fair to ask what caused God. I don't believe that anyone on Earth will ever know. I believe that God created the universe with the rules that we know. For that to be possible he has to exist outside of our universe and therefore outisde of our known laws and rules. Maybe once we figure out how his universe operates, we could answer your question. I went more in depth in a prior post so read that one if you wish.

Agreed. People who don't believe in a creator believe that every single thing in the entire world that has ever existed required a designer EXCEPT the big bang. I can't except that as something to live by.

Therefore, God needs a designer. And God's designer needs a designer. And God's designer's designer needs a designer. And so on and so on. The concept of infinity seems much simpler (yet still complex) to me if I just leave out the God stuff. But that's just me. I guess I mistyped. Everything in our world/universe/realm/dimension needs a designer. I believe that God created our world and for that to be possible he couldn't have been in it. You can look inside an automobile engine all day, but you have to look outside of it to find the designer. Since I don't believe God to be part of our universe, which is a universe that requires a designer for everything, the same rules don't apply. Theoretical physicists believe that other universes would have completely different laws (gravity is sideways, red is blue, etc.).

Everyone has to go sometime. We generally don't get to choose the time or the place. But this is one of those things that cause people who don't believe in God to bring out the argument of "If there is a God, why would this kind of thing happen." That's crazy talk. Thinking that God is going to treat everyone like royalty. Everything that happens in this world gives us the opportunity to grow. Imagine if you never let your kid get hurt or lose their money or experience things that happen in the world. Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. I’m sure Jean and Scott Adam, Philis Macay and Bob Riggle considered it pure joy, my brother, when they faced these particular trials. Gosh they were lucky. . Isn't it possible that during this ordeal, they either turned back to God or it strengthened their faith? Either way, you never know when it's your turn to go, so don't wait to develop your personal relationship with God.

I believe and I expect quite the opposite of being treated like royalty. Having challenging things happen to you and then getting the big picture view of the situation opens your eyes. The testing of your faith develops perseverance.

It's not like you're risking anything by believing in God. Belief in God is reasonable. Disbelieving Him is the unreasonable thing. It's not a blind leap of faith to believe in God. It's a blind leap to disbelieve in Him, because you have to believe it all happened without cause, without a designer, without one to keep it reliable and on time, without a stamp of morality from a God who is moral. Belief in God is reasonable. We have a 'special' word reserved for that particular argument ... It's .... Bollocks! ...awaiting a better argument to reply to...

Yes it is. There's 2 points to address here... First, you make the point that one should need a designer. Why does something need a designer? Do you not believe in the concept of infinity, because if you believe in the concept of infinity, things don't need a creator. Also, if in your idea everything needs a creator, who created God? If you have a theory you need to have a logical basis point for it, not "Everything needs a creator... EXCEPT God, he doesn't need one, he always existed". If one entity can exist in terms of an infinite being, any entity can exist in such a sense. Quite simply, you may pick- either there is infinity and things don't need a creator or you may go with the idea that infinity isn't true and that everything needs a creator, in which case your theory of Gods existence is flawed. You tie morality with God. Morals aren't passed down from a God. Tribes people all over the world have shown moral activity people showed it long before the Abrahamic God become popular. Morals are something that comes from your brain, the same area that controls compassion, empathy, sympathy. These aren't religious ideas. They are things which exist in developed brains, dogs have no God yet they show empathy and mourning. These are signs of attributes which contribute to peoples ideas of morals. The bible just included a lot of morals which people already had. Everything does need a designer. I'm looking at my iPhone right now and I'm 100% sure that I wasn't sitting here wishing for something that could keep me from being bored and it poofed in out of thin air. We live in a world where everything in it is dependent on cause. Everything is. When you see a body of water that is still and you suddenly see concentric rings going out from one another, it's reasonable to conclude that something caused it. It’s not reasonable to think "wow, look at that. Spontaneous generation of ripples!" Now, the water itself didn't cause it. Something outside of the water had to cause it. Like our world, our universe, it didn't create itself. Something outside of it had to create it. People seem to want to lock the cause of our universe inside of our universe. I believe that God created time and space and for Him to create this universe of cause, He had to be outside of it. You won’t find the inventor of the engine inside the engine. You have to look outside of it to find him. And since God is outside of our world of cause, He doesn’t need a cause. I believe that we have an absolute morality in this world and that it comes from God. There are Atheists and Moral Relativists that preach that there is no absolute moral, and yet they also say that murders of certain people are wrong (which I agree). But if there is no moral center, why are Moral Relativists trying to tell me that a murder is wrong? Slavery is bigger today than ever and most of it is in the sex trade. Christians, Catholics, Atheists, and Moral Relativists alike would say that it is wrong. If there is no God, and no absolute morality, isn’t it reasonable to say that they can’t do what they want to do? I don’t know much about the early tribes, but I do know that God existed before them and therefore His absolute moral existed before them. I also believe that God created everything on this Earth, so he also rules over dogs.

Everyone has to go sometime. We generally don't get to choose the time or the place. But this is one of those things that cause people who don't believe in God to bring out the argument of "If there is a God, why would this kind of thing happen." That's crazy talk. Thinking that God is going to treat everyone like royalty. Everything that happens in this world gives us the opportunity to grow. Imagine if you never let your kid get hurt or lose their money or experience things that happen in the world. Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

It's not like you're risking anything by believing in God. Belief in God is reasonable. Disbelieving Him is the unreasonable thing. It's not a blind leap of faith to believe in God. It's a blind leap to disbelieve in Him, because you have to believe it all happened without cause, without a designer, without one to keep it reliable and on time, without a stamp of morality from a God who is moral. Belief in God is reasonable.

The Air Force gave me a deployment to the desert. However, we ended up temporarily losing our clearance into the country so we've been stuck in Spain for about 2 weeks. Turned out alright after all! Best wishes to everyone that is already out there.

Not to brag, but... 16-way. Had a more successful 12-way earlier. And yeah I know, skyvan made it easy...