Farflung

Those holes in the money look like bug chewings to me, but I can add entomology to the long, long, long list of crap I don’t know. But I do know that American currency is NOT made of paper but, cotton, linen and silk. That’s right, I took a tour of the Bureau of Engraving, so that makes me an expert and qualifies me to rebuke and denounce any statements I want to. So I figure that currency would be consumed by critters that like cotton, linen or silk, and leave holes about the same shape and size. See how smart a few hour tour can make you? So here’s an initial guess: http://www.entomology.wisc.edu/insectid/insect_info.php?363 Perhaps there is a bug-ologist or assistant bug-ologist who can answer this mystery.

OK, so Cooper lived, that wouldn’t change the process the money took, as it is not dependant on being escorted by Cooper’s corpse. So he could have survived. But now the model has a parachute which went undetected along with a parachutist. But it could happen. What person are you suggesting is the one which was missed by family, mailmen and landlords? Did you design equipment at Hughes that had buttons, knobs and blinking lights just in case? Or were those added according to need or customer requirements? Wouldn’t a car with four steering wheels be safer than one with three? Cooper could have lived, that’s for sure, you just have to add the touch points and requirements to the model to make it work. Is there some data to support this, other than the absence of something?

Amazon observed: “The spoils area on Puget Island just down from my property has almost ZERO rock as a component, its all fine sand. Same goes with the spoils areas on Willow Bar and there along the WA side of the river. The Lower Columbia seems to be a huge sand deposition with that sand being redistributed when high water events come along.” So this is the dredging version of the ‘Chicken and the Egg’ riddle. Looking at the cutter head on that dredge betrayed no provision to “filter” sand from the spoils. It appears that I could get the lower half of my body between the tines (?) of that implement. Having an internal device makes little sense as it would do little more than restrict the flow of materials. Then there is the flow of materials. Hundreds of yards per hour. At 100 yards per hour, assuming sand is 105 lbs per cubic foot, that’s 78 pounds per second of sand flowing through that 24 inch pipe. More than likely, it is much higher than that. So are the Corps of Engineers contracting areas which are known to be fundamentally sand deposits? Therefore the “filtration” is via serendipity instead of some, in the line, design element which rejects any large objects? A 24 inch pipe is certainly over-kill for sand processing. What tests have been done with such a device? How much would a canvas bank bag compress? Would that matter? I see there are conveyors and sorting equipment in the Fazio yard, so there must be some clinkers in the spoils. This too, appears to hinge on ONE report which the FBI infers the dredging as too harsh. I didn’t see one word on the Citizen Sleuths testing or validation, other than to agree with the report. They did conclude with: “This research did not, however, uncover a better explanation for how the money ended up on Tena Bar.”

I don’t try to chaff and jam subjects with false claims, or some weird homo-erotic fanboi worship of an employee at a museum, so I’m genuinely looking for some honest validation here. Georger posted some images of the Cooper money which utterly disproves any notion of the bills being aligned. In fact the images triggered a couple more questions about “tests” which were conducted. The first image, georger 7, illustrates seven (at least) bills in a pseudo fan arrangement. That eliminates the ‘perfectly aligned’ claim to be sure. But being a mere mortal, who doesn’t know everything, I have to ask how a stack or bundle of money, “buried” in a shallow grave would experience the signs of compression which I may be imagining. How could these bills be ‘cemented’, stuck or whatever together if they were dropped into a little hole and left behind, after being covered with a little sand? The second misnomer was “bleeding” of the ink. I noticed around the FRB seal some green ink, and some design elements which appear to come from the back of the twenty. Again, I’m just asking, so don’t shit the bed here, but that appears to be a “transfer” and not the result of bleeding. I believe that sort of transfer could be accomplished via pressure, and a great deal of it. Perhaps time and decay would accomplish the same? I don’t know. Since 377 is the only one with an actual artifact, perhaps he would take a close look for any signs of ink “transfer” on his bill. I’m curious what some wet currency put under a hydraulic press, at various settings would produce. The same stiff packets which would result in well preserved centers, where the margins are decayed like a 1X3 piece of wood? Nothing? Similar ink transfers? I just don’t know.

As if there isn’t enough mental frustration with all the bullshitting, fabricating of lore and misunderstood purity, I caught myself breaking one of the commandments analyzing the Tena Bar Tome. I didn’t start with a fresh sheet and partially digested some of the Citizen Sleuth’s tale. So I’m reading their ‘analysis’ of how it could be this, and it couldn’t be that, and having a gay (in the non-lavender sense) old time, but couldn’t find anything about their dredge tests. I mean for all the fawking talk about what this team did with dredging, I figured there would have been a burlap sack of phone books thrown into some sort of dredging device. Or at least list the dimensions of the “wiper bar” and just how one of these things prevents rocks from entering. A 24 inch pipe is pretty large to me, but who knows what experience exists on that team or this thread? So I find an image of a 24 inch cutter/suction dredge that has a person in the photo for scale. This is not some garden hose cleaning the fish tank here. Plus the volume performance is astonishing at hundreds of yards per hour. This thing can move a great deal of material. Next I was looking at the Fazio operation where 90,000 yards were delivered to the site in a matter of days. The Citizen Sleuths described the money site being high on the bank and 150 yards down river from the spoils delivery point. It was too high on the bank and too far for a dredge discharge or bulldozer to push the money, and the money had rubber bands and only three bundles together. So I got hung up on the bulldozer and dithered and fretted about dump trucks and front loaders, and how that operation would appear. It was already very complex, and with all the supplemental garbage which was added it was impossible to follow. Then I had a stiff one and decided to have another, and marvel at the raw stupidity which creates this type of mind morass. Why was I worried about the bulldozer? I hadn’t eliminated other possibilities before adding a specialized piece of equipment, when my laziness should have ruled the moment. I suck. Just like V-23 and the Columbia being my safe place to go when others are busy ass raping the realm of probabilities, I needed a safe place at Fazio’s farm. That being the money floats from V-23 to the riverbank. Whew, now I feel better. The river was already doing all the work so why would I want to insert myself into the task? Yeah, like I’m the only lazy ass. However that’s the simplest solution. But why not add a dredge? OK, so the dredge is spewing all its semi-solid wonder on the river bank and drops the bag of money right in the pile. I would imagine that a suction dredge with a 1700 horsepower system may be quite capable of compressing a bag of waterlogged money into an impressive state. All the mens with their equipments begin to scoop and move 91,000 cubic yards of material, then do the tidy-up of the area and park their equipments for the next few years. That bag of money is still lying on/in the dredge deposit fan. Less noticeable with some wear and discoloration, but it is right in that funky fan. Looking at the available photos of Tena Bar allows one precisely four or five, snap-shots of the last 40 years. Some may consider that a paltry sample rate and I’m one of them. But the money was found on the tree line, past where dozers operated and slightly under the surface. When I registered the images from ’74, 79’ and today, I found the bank to be extremely amorphous. Checking for floods listed the ‘big ones’ but nothing about the normal flow or discharge rates. In fact, the money discovery site appears to be submerged in the modern Google map images. The tree line on the bank serves as testament for the levels which the river commonly experiences, as the line is nearly the same from 1970 to today. So I cut some key-holes in the images and laid them over each other and could see a much simpler solution. During some unknown amount of time, those fans were eroded and the bank went back to a linear profile. While the river was cycling through its normal level changes, it pulled away the overburden which covered the money. When the whole bag broke free it drifted briefly and snagged on some roots or branches on the river’s edge. The bag decayed (whatever) and three bundles were left behind with the rubber bands, and were eventually covered with a paucity of sand. Then it was found by Brian. No bulldozers, no active travel from the spoil site to the discovery site, the storage yard becomes irrelevant, normal accretion buries the bundles, no need for big floods; no need for other dredging, rubber bands could survive a 150 yard journey, just two touch-points now. The dredge picks up the money bag and perhaps some other gear, the dredge deposits it on the bank, then natural and passive forces work from there. Simplest Model (to me): 1. Cooper Jumps on V-23 2. Lands in Columbia No-pull 3. Beaches at Tena Bar 3a. via dredge removal from place other than Tena Bar 3b. via dredge deposit on Tena Bar 4. Discovered by Brian Or…. I’m just trying to steer and push this thing because I like simple stuff first. But that’s my latest thinking, unless someone has a simpler version or more complicated solution since something proves this couldn’t happen. Again (Again for the insecure types) this is not THE solution, just the fallback when exploring other possibilities, without having to consider probabilities. I usually KISS it first.

Here are a few examples of what Towsaw did in and around Tena Bar. It appears he spent tens of thousands, since one article has him dropping $10,000 in one two month period. There are two things mentioned that are new to me. One is the ‘clean up’ of the Columbia twice a year by salmon fishermen. If true, that’s a lot of scouring. The second was the “list of dredging projects” and how “only one” of the projects (plural) could have been the one to put debris on Tena Bar. May be nothing, but why the implied ambiguity of looking at projects? One more item mentioned how he hired a man to sift Tina Bar with a front loader and a screen.

Here’s a reference from the Skygods: http://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/libview_normal.aspx?id=6303 Under WIND: “22015G25KT is reported as the three-digit true direction to the nearest 10 degrees. Note: ATC towers, ATIS and airport advisory service report wind as magnetic.” Every once in a while, the government manages to limit the amount of mental gymnastics by keeping the exchange rate the same. Using magnetic winds in this case. But they taketh away with VISIBILITY: It is inexplicably reported in STAUTE MILES instead of nautical miles. I know that wind measuring equipment ‘may’ (non mandatory) be located in the center of the runway environment. What technique is used to avoid jet blast (how high is the 727’s engine? DC-10’s?). Here’s some more for the library: http://www.nws.noaa.gov/asos/pdfs/aum-toc.pdf In particular section 3.2 Wind (page 14 or 21 in the PDF) “The rotating cup anemometer and the simple wind vane are the principal indicators of wind speed and direction. Until the mid 1940s, the electrical contacting anemometer was the standard wind measuring instrument. Since then, the “F420” series of instruments have become the standard for wind measurement in the U.S. A basic system of this series consists of a cup-driven Direct Current (DC) generator with an output calibrated in knots and a vane coupled to an indicator by means of a DC synchro-system. The ASOS uses a modern automated version of the F420, in which electro-magnetic signals generated by the rotating cup and wind vane are directly converted into reportable values by ASOS.” Something about sensor height: “Before ASOS, airport wind sensors were generally exposed 20 feet above ground level. With modern, highperformance aircraft, this standard no longer applies. Now, current federal standards for siting meteorological equipment specify (with some variance permitted) a height of 10 meters (32.8 feet). Typical ASOS wind sensor heights are 33 feet or 27 feet, depending on local site-specific restrictions or requirements. Figure 6 shows the ASOS anemometer. The ASOS will report the following wind related parameters.”

Georger explained: “The idea of a CS team arose, in part, due to a concern (conflict) between the FBI FP and Thomas' easterly Washougal route, on top of the fact that Palmer etal had mentioned the Washougal as a possible source for the Tena Bar money. That theory was very active among the FBI agents at the time of the Tena Bar excavation. And the thought was the Cooper money (and the sediments between bills) might very well show traces of time spent in the Washougal environment, prior to a later arrival at Tena Bar (say in the flood of 1979). Palmer had commented that he thought the Cooper money was a 'late arrival' at Tena Bar, and he said his geology supported that idea ... but no thorough chemistry had ever been done on the Cooper money (several agents said) ... which turned out to be not entirely true. That problem was the central at the time, as a motivation for having forensics done on the Cooper money (finally) by somebody, and lead to the organising of a forensic team ...” OK, so now some more light is shed on this idiotic environment, if I managed to read that correctly. 1. Some family is on vacation. 2. A kid finds something on the beach. 3. A geologist (just one) takes ‘some’ sort of sample tangential to the currency. 4. The same geologist (one and apparently only) suggests a “possible” source for the tangential sample. 5. It’s off to the races with half cocked, half wits, haphazardly bouncing around the countryside, apparently unaware that they were, “betting on the come” where everything hinged on some Sword of Damocles knowledge set, which managed to morph into several camps of ‘thought’ from a single source. With these same fragmented groups, fighting hammer and tong, over who had the better source information. (truly the definition of imbecilic) I can’t believe what I’m reading here. It’s truly like a Greek tragedy except there is no life lesson, just shame, humiliation and a life of well deserved scorn. One person analyzed the sample, no double blinds or cross checks. Wow, just wow.

If there was a ‘Free Space’ on the find Cooper BINGO card, I would have thought it was Tena Bar. The dozens of FBI agents, volunteers and dirt doctors who processed dozens of yards of material, was only the beginning. Every Cletus and Goober with half a dream, and less of a brain, migrated to the spot and sifted through the sands for the Treasure of Sierra Cooper, without any positive results. Next came the Tosaw types, who were actually well financed and armed with somewhat of a plan. If the money was found on Tena Bar, then Cooper must have pranged nearby. I don’t think it is an exaggeration to say that tens of thousands were spent, on weeks of medium scale dredging around Tena Bar. Again without positive results. Considering the history and the architecture of the original find, Tena Bar doesn’t appear to be a target rich environment. But that’s OK, hope springs eternal and some are convinced they have the right answer. Look, it’s still a free country and the beach is on private land, get a shovel and go! I’m sure the suburban Walter Mittys, who haunt this thread, have vast experience with something as lowly as a shovel, and know full well what’s required to process one, single cubic yard. Sure, you’ve used a shovel in your garden. First you put on your floral gloves with extra padding in the palm, don’t forget your knee pads and bandana. Then you picked up a sealed plastic bag of Miracle-Gro potting soil, then hoisted it up and carried it to the flower bed. Oh dear, you forgot the scissors! Now you’ve got to go back inside the house to fetch a pair. Whew, that’s hard work, I’ll have a little mimosa in order to cool that finely tuned engine you call a body. OK, ready to resume the excavation project between the painted concrete gnomes and gazing balls. Uh Oh! Is that an insect! Back to the house for some Black Flag. Now those disgusting creatures can be sprayed so you can continue working with that cubic foot of soil. Owww! I threw something in my back when I bent to spray the bugs. Oh well, I’ll just grab my bottle of Doan’s pills after I put the insecticide back in the garage. Damn it, I forgot my trowel, with ergonomic handle made with comfort gel. Back to the garden shelf and a search for the implement which was hidden behind a box of snail pellets. Finally you’re ready to dig that flower bed like a boss. Pretty close to correct? Easy to fancy one’s self as an excavating Adonis from the comfort of their chair and hemorrhoid pillow, but you better work out first. Order a yard of sand from the… sand store and spend a few hours shoveling the stuff from one side of your driveway to the other. Keep in mind this is likely kiln dried and sifted product, so this is as easy as it’s going to get. That’s right, I’m talking about a single…. cubic… yard. But you won’t. Don’t forget to cross check that plan. 1. Get a shovel. 2. Fly to Portland. 3. Go to Tena Bar. 4. ????? End of plan. Validation complete. Hey there are plenty of people who have jumped to ‘action’ with far less and didn’t have the advantage of hubris or some displaced sense that frenetic activity equates to something more honorable. It’s a theme that is thoroughly hackneyed. But please go! Please! The only thing less effective, would be ‘knowing’ where the money is buried, and wasting time steering and manipulating data, in some sophomoric pantomime, where you use faux authority and bombast, to push some anonymous group of people to arrive at Tena Bar, so you can justify your efforts. Why the desire to make independent research extinct which is not going “your way”? You have already declared yourself in possession of secret and unknown to anyone else information, so why would any other simulation or research match yours? Logic says it wouldn’t and that’s the way it should be. You suspect you are dead wrong, which I can only surmise must be the source of the anger and angst about the flight path data. But please just go! Go! Only a Walter Mitty would spend one more comment on this subject where you hold all the cards. Just PM interested parties and go! Go dig a hole and a half, since you have the spunk, experience and brains. You will truly defy all odds that have ever existed. Can you dig that?

Holy Cow! Mrshutt….. Captain Mrshutter45, that is magnificently spooky. What a great set-up and superb attention to detail where every expectation is exceeded. Was there some trim wheel clatter in there as well (sound effects)? Could it be that detailed? I’m just floored at what you and the crew have managed to cobble together without government mandate or profit motive. The overhead ‘console’ is a nice touch too. What a huge effort, or at least I’m assuming that judging the output. Sierra Hotel Shutter.

Way to go smokin99. How could this be possible? I asked if there was any clamshell dredg…. NO! Heretic!! NO, NEVER, THERE isn’t any dredging on the Columbia! Anyone who grew up on a farm would know that. Gawd, how stewpid can one person be? I live on that river and keep a constant, round the clock vigil and there has never been any DREDGING! …… So I dropped that subject. What a difference a year makes. Now within a few minutes there are pictures of the Hayden Island Marina getting dredged in 1976! I could not find this information, and I thought my search criteria was perfect for a yacht club: “Troglodytes who live on the water” “Jerk-offs of the sea” “Asshole mating grounds” “People who dress so gay, that gay people call them gay” “People that are such giant cooties, that giant cooties kill themselves” “Holes in the water, which pricks throw money into” “Water Peacocks” “People who make you thank Meth-addicts for moving in next door” It appears to be a conspiracy where the subject of dredging and marinas is difficult to come by because one makes waterways navigable, and the other makes people puke. But enough about my failure, what sort of dredge is in that fourth photo, with a chain of barges (?) trailing? I know, it’s a faked photo just like the one of the Apollo moon landings. Please can we get back to something about Cooper?

Robert99 found a 200 foot DME ambiguity, where Farflung (Monkey Menace) found one that was 1.7 miles and relevant to a present conversation. But how would that relate to real life? I’m glad you asked Tommy; let’s go to the chalk board. You see 1.7 nautical miles is 10,329 feet. Dividing 10,329 feet by the competing “less than 200 feet”, is 51.65 times more efficient at eliminating errors and waste. Can you put that into terms I can understand? Sure Tommy, I’m an arrogant prick and adjust my responses to your background. Let’s say you went to Home Depot and made a purchase of $30.98. If you were going to make a similar purchase which was 51.65 times less efficient, then you would have paid $1600 for that toilet seat. I hope that helps Tommy!

So looking at the Citizen Sleuth site created more questions than anything. Here it goes: 1. How did they determine the discovery site if they used trees in a photo which were gone save one that had been felled? 2. The 50 yards of bull dozing sounds more like a conditional limit to keep from pushing too much material back into the river than the certified smoothing zone. Is this mis-read legaleze? 3. There was no more dredging after 1974, or no more dredging from the Corps of Engineers? 4. What is the undulating mass in the photo from 1979 which was not present in 1974? 5. Are materials typically “bulldozed” in aggregate operations or loaded into dump trucks and transported to storage yards? Now get to work smokin99, or anyone else who digs pain.

Georger, http://www.cityofvancouver.us/shorelineupdate/Documents/Letters/General/100319x_Fazio_Brothers_Letter.pdf Just a general description of their operations and the spoils storage area. I can’t imagine someone contracting to have all that material ‘spread’ around the river bank. The Fazio aggregate operation is much larger than that, is someone misquoting things here? Again?? I really truly and honestly think that ‘hump’ is a deposit fan from the dredge discharge and not from tractors ‘smoothing’ it out. Something isn’t making any sense here. Where do the Fazio’s get all the material for the storage yard? 91,000 (91 thousand cubic yards) wouldn’t that be a 100 yard square area which is 27 feet tall? Something about this math is not making me happy and I want to be happy. But I’m just a monkey who can’t do math and the CS are a team of many. Oooo-oooo-EEEEEE-ah-ah-ah

Let’s see how all your ‘store bought trig’ works compared to knowing the location of the station, versus the ‘200 foot ambiguity’ gun you jumped when you read DME induced error. Nice one. Tena Bar isn’t getting any closer to your fantasy location because of this.

Here’s another consideration Mrshutter45, The DME measure came from a station which resides at the end of Runway 16C. So from brake release, Flight 305 would have begun with a measure of (minus) -1.7 DME. Not that it will have any major impact, but you and Hominid appear to be taking this to a new level.

Wow Robert99, In your world, climb out airspeed and groundspeed are the same. Man, that makes things so much simpler on the old time-distance equations. Those Bug-smashers are marvelous machines to be sure.

Mrshutter45, Don’t let the reports drive your simulations! There are errors a-plenty in time recording and a bunch of un-synchronized equipment from 1971. The macro measurements should resemble your flight profiles just fine. There is a problem when measuring with a micrometer what will be cut with an ax. Was the plane’s time started at brake release or lift off? Flying standards allow plus or minus two minutes for a reason, just like an airway is 4 miles wide. Your RMI may indicate you as tracking the 175 radial to the gnat’s ass, but between the acceptable tolerances of the instrument in the cockpit, transmitter on the ground, distance between the two, parallax of the pilot and the dog barking in the distance, you will find a couple minutes and miles being impossible to catch and therefore chase. You are doing the right thing. Pay no attention to the monkey on the computer, your initial numbers will probably prove to be more accurate than anything thus far.

Mrshutter45 asked: “after the sand was deposited onto the bar, does anyone know how much and how far they leveled off the sand?” The ‘sand’ deposit is part of a contract to accept dredging spoils, which is fancy city talk for rocks and shit from the bottom of the river. The Fazio Brothers farm (look at it in Google maps, I said look at it) is also an aggregate sales operation. Besides Moo-Cows, you will see many, many rigs with double trailers with belly dumps. There is also an assortment of Michigan loaders, bull dozers, front loaders, monkey spankers and Texas Freight Knockers. This along with the iconic tower conveyers and big assed piles of crushed, washed and sorted aggregate which are used in concrete, asphalt, railroad beds and sand boxes, yes children’s sand boxes Mandrake. So the beachhead would be a cacophony of material being deposited, choreographed with mens and their huge equipments, scooping load after load after…. I feel woozy…. load of material, and transporting it to the sorting yard. Typically the gubberment would require all spoils to be removed in a short span of time (weeks) since they (the g-man) aren’t stupid enough to pay twice to have the same rocks dredged. Check it out for yourself, there are Fazio-esque operations along the Columbia every ten or twenty miles.

Sure Mrshutter45, This is the error induced from rounding minutes and DME, versus radar and the usual problems with averaging data points too close together. T/O to 14 miles south is 6 minutes, or 2.33 miles @ minute, resulting at 140 knots. NEXT: 19 DME is 9 minutes, or 2.11 miles @ minute, resulting at 126 knots, for a combined average of 133 knots which is from a dead stop to 19 DME south. Don’t forget to factor in the one plus, nautical mile of altitude which had to be traversed, which equates to a lower ground speed as well. Thank you for your question.

Since I’m capable of multi-tasking, and being damn good at everything being parallel processed (yes, it is what you’re thinking ladies), I’ve displayed my typical generosity, to a fault, by crafting this comprehensive set of graphics. You’re welcome. It has been the traditional parlance on this fine forum is to admonish individuals to ‘read the tread’, ‘re-read my posts’ or read the ‘transcripts’. Sure that’s a great help, no doubt, but wouldn’t it be more polite, logical and efficient, to quote the artifacts of interest, rather than doom a person to reading some boring text? Yes, of course it is, that was a stupid rhetorical question. No one wants to ever engage in the sort of inefficiencies which produce $1600 toilet seats. At least no one with a functioning brain stem that is. So what is the mystery which surrounds the flight of 305? After forty years, the effects of myth, lore along with abject manipulation, fabrication and buttholery, have produced a story which appears to be far more complicated that it is in reality. An airplane flew from Seattle to Portland and experienced: time travel, alien abduction, Sasquatch attacks, gubberment conspiracies, employee revolt, and parallel universe barrier penetration along with a few unusual things. So here are the Cliff Notes on what is recorded for all you mere mortals to review. From the graphic of Genesis: For it is written, god created man and Farf, but that can be discussed later. The Genesis of Flight 305 was at Seattle-Tacoma Airport, which is called Seattle-Tacoma Airport. The crew requested and got runway 16L for takeoff. They were cleared V-23, all the way to Sacramento as obstacle clearance was known to that point. The crew was concerned about not having maps, because they didn’t want to roll the dice, and discover the summit of Mount Saint Helens, via tactile sampling. The crew showed superb safety of flight practices, in spite of having a psycho with a half dozen sticks of TNT in the back of the plane. Time for take off! Vvvvrrrrooooommmmm…. Time hack- 7:36 brake release! I’ve got bonerz. Ok, now the plane has lifted off and at 7:42 are reported 14 miles out of SEA. Then a minute later the back stairs were opened at 7:43, Horray! 7:45 has the tiny ship at, 19 DME with a 170 knots suggested as an optimum speed for their dirty configuration. Wow, that was a thrilling three minutes. But 9 minutes into the flight and the plane is at 7,000 feet, has the aft stairs open and are averaging 126 knots from brake release. Gosh, so far there isn’t anything exciting going on, save one notable exception, perhaps the remaining 37 minutes will betray a hidden Elvis or Roswell Alien. The next ‘action point’ for the crew is an Airway intersection named Mayfield (in 1971) which is 45 nautical miles away. At 160 knots this would take 17 minutes, 170 knots- 16 minutes and 180 knots- 15 minutes. So the variance on this leg would be 2 minutes with a velocity ambiguity of 20 knots. I really expected a lot more from the time travel element than some missing 2 minutes, oh well. On to the graphic of Exodus. The top of the chart has the turn point, aka intersection of Mayfield, with an ETA of 8:00 to 8:02 PM, based upon the last position report and an assumed ground speed of 160-180 knots. From Mayfield to Portland VORTAC is 41 miles. Just south of Mayfield is the tiny town of Toutle, where the emergency operating placard was found. The placard was extremely close to V-23 and somewhat disappointing for those expecting the parallel universe thing to kick in. Using ground speeds of 160 – 180 knots, the ETA to the Portland VORTAC would be 8:14 – 8:18 PM. If the time indicator of 2010 (aka: 8:10 PM local) from the chart is accurate, then an updated ETA to the Portland VORTAC would be a tighter 8:14 -8:15 PM. The aircraft remained within the 4 nautical mile Airway corridor and appears to be tracking near the velocity window of 160 to 180 knots. I’m not sure what greater precision would deliver, but if someone has better information they should speak with their data. What will the graphic of Numbers reveal? Here’s a little anti-climatic, verification of the laws of physics. I know, yaaaaawwwnn, expecting the Sasquatch or Bigfoot reveal is quite the come down, but this does reflect reality according to the records, and a well used -whiz-wheel. But take comfort in knowing that conspiracies do in fact exist, in that people are more than willing to shill, lie, cheat or steal, in order to manipulate others enough to create a conspiracy. So that’s good. What are the revelations in the numbers? Well that the position report which put Flight 305 at 23 DME, south of the Portland VORTAC, is precisely where they would be expected, if they flew V-23, at 160 – 180 knots, and maintained 10,000 feet. By ‘backing’ out of the 8:22 report, using 8 minutes leaves 8:14 PM, as the ‘over station’ time for the Portland VORTAC. That is in fact the calculated ETA which was the result of ATC communications and simple dead reckoning techniques. The standard of plus or minus 2 minutes was good enough for the Air Force, and dovetails well into FAA standards. I don’t see a vast amount of wiggle room for the ‘nut job’ theories which require secret inside information, but I’m sure they will claim that everything has been sanitized. There simply is not defense for psychosis. Any questions or belittlements are just fine with me, as I find deception to be among the largest insults a person can perpetrate. I will never understand the desire to chaff and cloud things with wishful thinking, repetitive chanting or steering to some Paper Tiger theory that will ultimately be discovered and tossed aside. Why add the expense and overhead to such a task? Unless of course, this is how these people typically behave. Amen.

Hominid, I did download those ‘garbage’ charts from Sluggo’s site, but they appear to serve the intended purpose of illustrating how Flight 305 was within the boundaries which define V-23. Time, altitude and velocity weren’t an issue since I was simply interested in the plane’s geo-location. That’s including the errors induced by me, the width of whoever’s pencil, communications delays and the resolution of the Mt Hebo radar some 60 miles away. This is really starting to tighten up a little. It would be an exceptionally difficult ‘sell’, with all this extra and confirming data, to believe that Flight 305 was outside the corridor of V-23, let alone off course. I assume (assume here) the flight simulations will provide an envelope of times and locations for 305 based upon some variables like, winds, throttle settings and rounding errors with time. All this neatly packaged within the realm of physics and airframe capabilities. Truly a first for this beleaguered subject.

Good idea Mrshutter45, here’s some charts with V-23 depicted in a funky blue. One chart is from the FBI and the other is the modern model from today. Even with the ‘odd’ location points which appear to serpentine like a snake, wildly passing back and forth over V-23 in a near random trail; close analysis shows just what a red herring this can be. Lines of latitude best represent distance. I marked off five (5) such lines which represent one (1) nautical mile (6076 feet) each, for a sense of scale. I did this in order to try a little fear containment before the wheels spin off the Cooper Honey Bucket wagon. The FAA surveys and certifies Victor Airways to be free of obstacles, and capable of receiving signals for an area of four (4) nautical miles either side centerline. This also roughly approximates what a pilot would consider minimum competence in regard to radio navigation. So what does the FBI chart indicate about the flight path of 305? Nothing dramatic at all (insert dramatic scream, while clasping head) with the plane pretty much following V-23 to a standard which would satisfy any check instructor or FAA examiner. So where does all the angst originate?

Farflung reluctantly reposts what he thought was so simple as to be… self evident: “Here’s the starting point, official or otherwise: Centerline, infinitely small point, V-23. Money release point, anywhere along V-23 centerline, and over the Columbia River. End of data. END…. THE E-N-D The only extra would be from inference, bias or voodoo, at this moment. End of model. There is no more. “In the beginning……:” blah, blah, blah “Amen.” This is the simplest design to deliver some money to Tena Bar. Agreed? Yes/No? If No, What is a simpler solution? Present it. If Yes, what data set would move or modify the original points? You must have a source, no more ‘because I say so’ or wishful thinking.” Where do I begin Robert99? You say you have a better answer, I don’t doubt that for a second, but many others will. How do we arrive at the Columbia flowing uphill? Via science? Careful analysis? Or goof-ball shooting from the hip, derived from a non-systemic approach, driven by desired results? Who was it that said the 727 was the only commercial plane with aft stairs? (Hint it was you) Do you see any mention in the “Farflung Fear and Diarrhea Inducing Model of Cooper’s Jump” of altitude? Any mention at all? How in your ‘enlightened’ world would adding this layer of complexity be simpler, from my original comment? What specifically (quote a little bit, not a Jo amount) put such a bee in your bonnet? IF (IF), I said IF (IF AGAIN), I was tasked as a private sector designer, to propose the simplest system, to deliver money to Tena Bar, using known data (cleared take off, SEA-TAC via V-frigging23), it would be a single drop, from V-23, over the Columbia. My first question was….. Is this the simplest design? You apparently felt it wasn’t. Next, I asked for a similar process outline, which is simpler. You didn’t oblige. But I did get to read about a bunch of crap that would be removed from the equation as it adds no value. I’m not trying to design a $1600 toilet seat here. Why is this so complex? I imagine you are blinded by your bias, and an unfounded fear that if you agree with what I said, it will make that some de facto answer, and thrust you into a parallel universe. In case you haven’t noticed, all the time travel happens on this thread, thanks to people who must be truly terrifying to be around in person. The basic starting point is NOT (NO GAWD DAMN IT) an answer, but it is derived from available, public and published data AND is plausible. That’s fawking all. But by all means, talk about how the plane was cleared to be ‘anywhere’, like Guam or Christmas Island, because there are no sanity checks, just Sasquatches digging holes on riverbanks with milk buckets. There is NO MENTION OF DREDGING either. Why all the non-sequitur inclusion? Steering something? PS- georger, You clearly weren’t doing any manipulation or steering, sorry about including you. I had much higher expectations from people claiming to be college educated problem solvers. Again, I blew it with that assumption. I should have waited for more data.

The light finally went on for me. This whole subject is nothing but a ‘Trojan Horse’ to facilitate this overly scripted, and overly hyped discussion about dredging by georger, and what I posted must have caused some, unknown to me, but pre-emptive damage to your poorly veiled attempt at some sort of legitimacy. Why would georger AND Robert99 need to announce how they have had long, private discussions on this ‘spontaneous’ subject? Theatrics. Count me permanently out of any type of charade or butthole puppetry. Between RobertMBlevins and Skyjack71, I get more than my fill of garbage analysis and faux sincerity. I’m embarrassed that I didn’t see this sooner. Shame on me…. this time.