Farflung

No proof that it was Coopers necktie? It's the FBI's job to get supporting information yet they should disseminate existing files (information) to the general public? If so, contact the Department of Justice with your resume and fill the position of FBI Director in order to get this organization some traction once again. How many other crimes are they letting go unsolved? It's clear the Lindberg kidnapper was innocent (forget not guilty) and framed in order to quiet public outcry for blood with a Teutonic accent. The FBI and Treasury Department collaborated in placing thousands of dollars in gold certificates in Hauptmann's garage. Of course they had to use a man from another state, otherwise the FBI could not get involved. It's so obvious if only you people would think with the brains the good lord gave a goose. Then the Treasury Department forced a bank employee to report receiving a gold certificate from a business in Brooklyn. As if something as mundane as a diligent teller could possibly be considered a credible source. Puuuhlease. Here is where the FBI writes Hauptmann's license plate number on the margin of the gold certificate and forces a gas station attendant to admit he filled Hauptmann's car and scribed the tag numbers on the bill. There's no proof that the bill was not from a previous customer and this Goober working at the filling station just got confused. Now the state police arrest Hauptmann and plant another gold certificate in his wallet. Why can't people see that marked money will never replace what a person just knows. Especially if what that person 'just knows' is corroborated by another person who 'just knows.' And both of them have been saying this for years and years and years and years. Why won't they listen and quit dithering with bank robberies? That's what police are paid for. Now for the pinnacle of government sponsored mass deception. The FBI 'claims' the ladder used for the kidnapping was constructed from boards removed from Hauptmann's attic. Good night Irene, I guess the creative writers at Quantico were fresh out of plausible ideas when they decided to frame Hauptmann with this gem. The only thing more astonishing was the public consumption of this tale with absolutely no proof. That wood could have come out of any attic. Adding to all of this is one undeniable fact which the FBI so conveniently overlooked; Hauptmann said he did not do it. Heelllloooooo FBI anyone home? I handed them the identity of the 'true' offender on a silver platter and they requested a copy of his birth certificate from me. That's THEIR job. I don't have time for all that, plus I had already sent them a Marie Callendar's discount coupon and a Clutch Cargo PEZ dispenser, what more do they need? Oh well, the FBI can have it for all I care, what's the point? I'm not about to surrender my dignity. Happy Thanksgiving! And to all a good flight.....

Skyjack71, If the Vern you are referencing is one from my response to Georger; as far as I know, he has no last name. Vern was the off camera foil and victim of one Ernest P. Worrell (aka Jim Varney) who was a TV pitchman for various dairies and car dealerships. Know whatta mean? As a fictional character he represented some very real people one may have to deal with as times. Lucky or skilled appears to matter to you a great deal, considering how much effort has been invested researching Weber's military training. If it did not matter, you would not have done this. Ultimately the aviation or jump training does not matter at all. If a bag of money (matched to the hijacking) was to be found in a home once occupied by a man who resembled Cooper what would you look for as proof? Was he in the military? Vietnam? Did he act weird? Was he employed by Northwest? What were his spending habits? Did he pay cash for the house? Graduate SEAL training? Kill a gopher with a stick? Oh yeah, the money bag was wrapped in a knee length, black raincoat with a crumpled airline ticket in the pocket. But this person was never in the military. In fact most described him as quite the Harvey Milquetoast and entirely forgettable. The cashier in the corner market only knew his name because he would cash his Social Security check there and buy his usual bourbon and carton of Raleigh's. Too bad he was never in the military because he appeared like a good suspect. Apparently that rain coat was loaded with fibers which matched those from airline seating and floor covering. Now if there was a way to trace this to a guy who had been through jump school and was an A/P. Damn when will they get a break? If the FBI would release all the precise details to include the address of the home then someone would be able to match their suspect to all the evidence. In the event of a tie, the person with the longer time in service or stranger behavior will be deemed 'prime suspect.' As a bit of trivia, the guy who owned the home with the money had a small defect where a fingernail would not grow on his left pinky. Can you believe the FBI confirmed that Mucklow reported such a condition with Cooper too, sheesh, what are the odds? Without displaying a clear fetish for 20 dollar bills, this guy must be dismissed. As final proof this is not the right person, when he died in a nursing home two years ago; he did not leave a dying declaration. He did not hint that he had something he really, really, really needed to say...but then stopped himself...as if...oh my,,,I've already said too much. Nope, nothing dramatic upon which to feed. Same as Jack Ruby, Black Dahlia killer, Jack the Ripper, Lizzie Borden, Zodiac killer, Lindbergh kidnapper, Atomic Bomb secret passers, Boston strangler and the guy who doesn't flush the toilet in public restrooms. No death bed confessions, not a one. Come to think of it, other than Perry Mason and a few Cooper devotees; who actually has made a death bed confession? I know if I'm surrounded by loving family with my time on the planet drawing near; I won't disclose how I accidently killed a Bellman in Reno and had a torrid three year affair with my wife's sister. OK, I might fess up to the Bellman thing, but not the other; dying does not make one suicidal. I do hope those whose eyes have drifted across this post can appreciate allegory, simile and satire. I made up the Cooper suspect persona for the sake of documenting the various weights each element contains. When compared to a black raincoat with a few select items, all the Delta Force/Ranger/Roger Ramjet training begins to take on the color and flavor of distilled water. Ultimately very few things actually matter and that is the point to this fiction. Oh, except for the Bellman 'thing', that was true.

377, I would have thought the aerodynamic forces of the slipstream would have kept the stairs all but closed. Like most things in life, I'm wrong about this as well. But ultimately who was right versus lucky? The crew had to ask NWA who called Boeing who said the stairs must remain closed for take off and would not be effective for a bail out. Cooper wanted the stairs down, but accepted the baseless explanation that they remain locked for take off. If I knew the stairs could have been left down the pilots would be told to taxi for take off or the 'button' gets pushed. Looks like it was a staring contest where everyone blinked at the same time. Why make the stairs the center sanctum for egress? 160 knots is about the cruise speed of a B-17 which had many thousands of successful exits in many attitudes. Next time you visit an air museum look under the right horizontal stab for the outline of a hatch. That is the Tail Gunner bail out station. Then look at the exit hatch on a 727 and choose which one would be more likely. Is the B-17 more believable because it has been done before? The B-17 used the entry hatch, bomb bay and aft hatch for egress along with the Tail Gunners hatch. How bout those 767 and MD-11 doors that slip inside then slide up? Just like the aft hatch of a C-141 they could serve as a bail out station. Just has not happened......yet. Snowman, My first trip to Iceland was truly shocking in that an entire nation could be filled with so many blonde, blue eyed Nordic beauties. I was asked what it was like to visit such a barren, featureless, frozen land which belched acrid sulfurous gas with every meal featuring the strongest smelling of fish and fermented milk. 'Really?' Was my response, 'I never noticed ANY of that.' Georger, My intention was not to establish that Cooper did not survive as much as presenting actions which were reflective of a lucky man versus a skilled or trained man. Perhaps he survived the jump and is living in Iceland. What is the fidelity of sonar these days and could it distinguish a rig from a hundred year old log jam at the bottom of the Columbia? I sure don't have any idea. If I truly believed that Christiansen was Cooper I would finance the analysis of the Mitochondrial DNA extracted from his brother or other relative. Then have the lab send their results to the FBI keeping myself out of the loop, waiting for and accepting the answer like an objective, mature researcher. If there was a match, I would party like a rock star and tell earth to suck it.

I've got a lovely bunch of parachutes. There they are all standing in a row. Front packs, Back packs, one that will make you DEAD! Just put two on, soon you'll be gone, That's what the Rigger said. So an 'experienced' rigger is charged with gathering the chutes for Flight 305. No doubt having supplied many a plane full of jumpers with the necessary apparatus. Skydivers know what to inspect and have double checked by others in the aircraft. Separate redundancy throughout, splendid just splendid. Now during an Apollo 13 moment, this same rigger grabs two navy packs which are ultimately mixed with a pair of incompatible reserve chutes and hucks them into the trunk of a waiting cab. After all, why should he assume there was any intention of these chutes being used together? No need to check the packing card for dates this was an emergency, like a repack a few days out of currency is going to hurt anything. Just to get this straight, a trunk is filled with two sets of parachutes that had no compatibility. One quarter of the parachutes were inert and used for training. That training chute which was sewn shut had the visual appearance of any other chute; that is, it was not striped pink and yellow with a red tag embossed with for training only. I don't see any problems here, Cooper probably did just fine. I'm sure the money was treated in a similar fashion. A courier driving to several points were people are throwing cash filled bags in the trunk then delivered to waiting personnel at the airport. Nothing to ponder here folks, lets move on. Just getting this far has involved two jump schools with a moniker of aviation knowledge resulted with a known failure rate of (at least) 25%. From this point to where Cooper makes his selection the known failure rate has doubled to 50%. This is being generous, as the inert reserve was attached in a non-standard configuration and could have caused more damage then simply not being able to open. Now Cooper has half a chute, half a chute, half a chute onward. Now the money bag needs to be strapped to this FAA approved and inspected harness. As an experienced jumper Cooper was bound to check the inspection tag from force of habit which was pounded into his head while in the military. If he had, he may have known he was wearing a bag of bricks. Aviation is absolutely polluted with back up systems, cross checks, inspections, licenses, certifications and oversight; am I the only one astonished by how these chutes were processed? Although Cooper had little control over the training pack being delivered to him, a standard inspection may have prevented its use. Demanding a compatible system would have improved things and having the money in a bag with D-rings would have been better still. For a guy in his 40's, Cooper sure had a great deal of confidence in other people. Hard for me to digest a person with experience in any form of aviation taking so much on blind faith.

Georger asked: So the training question is: what would the real Cooper look like, how would one recognise him, how might he surface in the course of daily events, what would trigger your suspicion, and what would you do about it if anything and when? Georger, Fair questions and I should have expanded that the concern is not that Cooper holds attribute A and B but that they are used as validation for a theory. Let's say I believe a person is Cooper because he was trained to jump in the military. First, there is no evidence beyond Cooper wearing a parachute to indicate any level of training or experience greater than that gained from someone at a local tavern. Indicators that he knew little about the dark art of jumping (I know nothing) follows: He asked for a back chute and front chute. Chutes is chutes after all. Spilling a chute to retrieve line to lash the money to his body. Most with military training would know of a pocket in that harness which is storage for a rappel line. Cutting shroud cord is awfully dramatic. Attaching the chest pack to a harness without D/V rings. Attaching the chest pack without consideration to cause and effect of those missing attach points if the reserve is deployed. Attaching the chest pack to a Navy harness which has no way to release the primary canopy which would allow for a scintilla of successful reserve deployment. Sporting a full length raincoat knowing you would soon don a chute with a pair of straps snugged around the jewels. If he was Navy he would not have asked for a reserve pack as they were not used. Same for the Air Force except it was possible to jettison the canopy with a pair of quick release clamps. Additionally the Air Force chutes had a four line mod capability. This leaves Army and Marine jumpers who would be last on the logic tree to accept some aircrew emergency pack and a paratroops reserve. Knowledge drives actions in a more predictable fashion, Cooper's choice of para-wear is best modeled by drawing slips of paper out of a hat with various pieces of equipment listed. The second part, what would I use to identify (filter) a person: Just like on Dragnet, establish opportunity. Have a pay stub that indicates he was not working that day. Sure glossed over what a Northwest (unmarried) crew member was doing on Thanksgiving eve. I can tell you what I was doing every holiday of my unmarried life - flying because I didn't have any family responsibilities. Come to think of it, the entire crew was bachelors during the holidays. They would be the type to do things with little planning or insufficient training. You know the type, always managing to not get killed doing the most marginal of activities. Buy a motorcycle then 'teach' themselves to ride. Jump a fence into the yard of a snarling Doberman to save a few steps. Trying to run a shunt around the electric meter and so on. Looking like the drawing is a nice supplement and being a smoker would help, where being a non smoker is anachronistic. Remember McCoy who looked like Cooper (ask Tina if it is him) but didn't smoke like a Mormon? Yet two FBI agents are convinced McCoy is real; so real he also had some whiskey to throw people off his Latter Day trail. But smoking and drinking makes one age faster and McCoy was almost 20 years younger than Cooper. Lets pretend he took the stairway to heaven. A good suspect would have shallow or no roots or have an unusual disappearance. Not returning to that weekly motel room would hardly be noticed and clearing out an apartment after rent is due is not unheard of, but unusual. Any records of wages or taxes coming to a permanent end would be a step in the right direction also. Paid cash for a house on a paltry $500 a month? How easy would it be to verify if the purser had a long history of savings in a federally insured bank for the last decade before making his $15,000 purchase, assume $174,000 shoe horned in the conifers? That house is not a commercial business now because it is nestled near a babbling brook. So far, the house purchase is failing to intrigue. See what I mean Vern? He also purchased some land for $1,500. All of this is what a person of that income bracket could accomplish. If he purchased a $50,000 home with cash and a new Porsche; that's man bites dog. If the information can't survive a simple sanity check it should remain in the background noise until something verifiable amplifies that data point. He was trained by the Army - he used a Navy chute! He was an aircraft mechanic - Cooper completed no repairs! He was a Northwest employee - Cooper was a Northwest passenger! He was odd and lived with young men - ??????, He loved beaches - ??????, He would work extra for additional pay - Cooper was a thief. He would return from trips overseas with gifts - OK, I have to admit, that clearly makes him Cooper, no one would ever engage in such abhorrent behavior. That pig, a true piece of human garbage. Admittedly Christiansen appears to have led an alternative lifestyle with the men in his orbit but must have disguised it well since Cooper's note was a suspected come on by the Stewardess. Well that's the complex formula which I have applied in this situation and found it to be equally effective in other life endeavors as well. I do have an open mind about Mr Christiansen but remain seated at the zero point for the time being.

Sluggo, I hope this person can recall what took place on that flight in the two weeks preceding. I was trying to recall the names of teachers from the same time period and managed to score absolute zero. Keep in mind these were people I saw everyday for 8 months and not a glimmer of recall. A few years later Squeaky Fromme threw down on Gerald Ford while he was visiting Sacramento, CA. Recall any news reports where people mentioned an elfin woman flitting around wearing a bright red pixie hat and monks robe? That's what she was wearing when she was hauled away. Either this was common garb in the mid 70's or the average persons power of observation is always off and the power of imagination is ........ eleven.

Cooper is haplessly mired in his own lore borne litany. Just as with UFO sightings individuals will use historical but unproven data to buttress their 'experience.' Reporting frail, three foot tall creatures with grey skin as credible since it matches so many reports from the past. Yep that sounds like a legit sighting report to me all righty. Or the many stories of Bigfoot. The only discovery where the site actually repulsed future seekers. Hey, they just discovered a Coelacanth off Madagascar! Great, I'll check the north Pacific. Yahoo! oil was found at Spindletop, Texas. Hawaii or Bust! Incredible. When something has any element of legitimacy a rush will ensue as on the Klondike, Oklahoma land rush and oil drilling in western Pennsylvania. These musings about genuine alien behaviors or the stench of Sasquatch is vexing in how seriously the separate camps take each other while creating a hierarchy of expertise. This requires some 'rare sense' where common information is allowed to be processed in a linear fashion to observe how long it will survive. The Cooper 'bar of expertise.' Cooper is a veteran, jump trained, pilot and bomb maker because he jumped out of a plane and used flaps and opened a briefcase. OK then, I must be a plumber since I used a toilet today and a mechanic since driving a car and computer maker after displaying a laptop. Perhaps the hallowed halls were such expertise is awarded should consider accreditation. Is there evidence that Cooper was anything more than lucky? However I am willing to credit him with the ability to smoke where his drinking had noob written all over. Re-enter the Purser. He looks like Cooper, great; now ask Tina. He worked for Northwest, ah-ha, yes, of course, why didn't we see it? Because is was never a serious parameter before and little more than a coincidence now. He was a mechanic too, on airplanes!! That fits perfectly with Cooper performing a phase inspection of the fuselage. He went through jump training in the army. Again, as this was not a requirement to be Cooper, I don't see the value beyond coincidence. Christiansen did NOT smoke Raleigh's. Did NOT drink bourbon exclusively. Did NOT speak about bombs, air stairs or hijackings. Was NOT tall or heavy enough, dark enough, skin and eyes. But he sure looked like that black and white drawing from Mucklow's description except for those other things, he is a 95% match. In fact the D in Cooper's name is Dorian as he keeps getting younger with each investigation. The pre-requisites to be Cooper should include not being seen since 1971 for starters. Why have all of the suspects decided to hang around and live such pedestrian lives with such dark and sinister pasts? Dan Coopers or Walter Mittys? If it was a relative I suspected, I would want them investigated as quietly as possible followed by relief after having done my civic duty. I don't see myself insisting an uncle, dead or alive, as having to be some criminal. As Hunter S Thompson said before deciding he had enough; "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Cooper has been imitated many times, has been a pilot, has been jump trained, has been a Northwest employee and has been a transsexual. For all of this and more, Cooper has never been boring.

I went to several phases of emergency procedures (Bail Out) training and was taught to do a PLF. I recall the instructor ever so gently complementing me through a bullhorn about my coordination being similar to that of an outhouse rat ( that's good, right?). He went on to credit me with inventing the PFL - Poor, um...forgot what the F was for, Landing. This was in '79, so I assume others were getting the same guidance in previous years. We were limited to the 'tuck position only' for bail out. I recall being told not to even think about extending limbs during 'free fall.' Ejection training consisted of 1. Arming handles rotate. 2. Triggers squeeze. 3. Faint. The Air Force canopy was the C-9 (28 feet, I think) and festooned with white, olive, sand and DayGlo orange (for when I feel sassy) colored panels. After the chute saved our bacon, it would become our house, clothing and signal device. Even the line had a core of multi colored threads for sewing or making snares or fishing lines. Really tough, durable stuff. One thing that did surprise me the first time was the effort and distance you had to pull the 'rip cord.' Not like the cartoons. We were taught to rotate the canopy by pulling a riser down and spilling some of the air. I have no idea if this is considered steering as our goal was simply to turn into the wind before digging a shallow grave with our face. I felt I had learned just enough to revert to training in an emergency and more than enough to really respect the hazards associated with overconfidence.

Orange1, 377, You made me think about the LPU-10 some more. The LPU was the FIRST piece of life support equipment donned before a bailout. Ms Mucklow has been quoted (my rotten memory) Cooper as putting on the primary chute like he has done it many times before. If this is true, the LPU would have been of less use.

Orange1, In a word 'Easily'. Had not considered that option, further proving how simple of an individual I am. If I had the un-inflated water wings in my brief case; I would make sure and get a chute that accommodates their use. The force of inflation is great enough to break ribs if restricted. Regarding the brief case, I could believe either ethos (+/- 5 lbs). 337, The LPU-10's are the puppies I was referencing great example and anecdotes

Snowman, Some very compelling dialogue and analysis about the moolah from the rivah. My silly post was a simple view form a simple person (that's me). How far can an 8 year old dig on a snow covered shore? How far would an 8 year old dig, sans snow con sol? Would an 8 year old recognize a pile of American duckets? What would one do to confirm the 'trash' they were holding is in fact a pile of dirty green? Perhaps brush, break and whisk away the outer layer(s) until the unmistakable portrait of Ol' Hickory beams back at the holder. Fresh deposit or artifact of dredging seems to indicate Cooper having been deposited some place upstream from Tena Bar. A dredge moving TV sets or soup cans would possibly fling other packs of money, parachute hardware, fabric remnants and the like. The frantic search through Tena Bar produced no such examples. The initial point favoring solutions with a simple architecture. The farmer thought it was fresh drift debris versus the money marking where Cooper drilled into eternity. Although I don't carry a large believe in the 'float' theory about a cash pack submerged in water for years. The 'ground zero' hypothesis seems to have been disproved through empirical means. If nothing else, a reasonable assumption would move the touchdown point somewhere upstream of Tena Bar and on or down stream of the aircraft's track. As you have pointed out (nice graphic), the Columbia holds the greatest percentage of probability as it has the greatest surface area. Very simple and reasonable approach. For that you must be punished for heresy. Throw in the Willamette River and you should be burned on the stake. Anchors aweigh. Cooper was sporting some of the finest skydiving gear produced by Uncle Sam. Back pack (30 lbs), chest pack (15 lbs), money (20 lbs), brief case and contents (5 lbs) or 70 pounds of accessories for the modern day hijacker. Too bad Cooper didn't request an additional 2 pounds of gear which is designed to compliment the back pack chute. What knowledgeable, trained by the military, skydiver would jump without wings? Water wings that is; OK, OK flotation devices. A pair of CO2 filled bladders capable of supporting 200 pounds each; are worn discretely under each arm of the jumper. This device is known to all military aviators and considered mandatory equipment. What would happen in the 'unlikely event of a water landing' where an individual had the chute deploy and deposit them into the drink? I know a water landing without the water wings would make for an extremely difficult event without the burden of a money bag, briefcase and chest pack. Thoughts and analysis?

Bruce Smith has shared two events associated with the extraordinary D B Cooper case which have the common thread of credibility via their mundane telling. This is not a criticism. Bruce Smith passes an Email message free of apparent editing or manipulation regarding a conversation with Andy Anderson, the Flight Engineer and the events of Thanksgiving eve. True to the transcripts, Mr Anderson recalls a flight where little is known regarding the sole non-paying passenger on Flight 305A. Landing in Reno and requesting fuel is reflective of expecting to continue the journey rather than exit the aircraft since Cooper 'walked' several hours prior. Suspecting and knowing events are two entirely different animals. The crew suspected the bailout but behaved as if Cooper was still in the smoking section of the fuselage. Then the family with the generosity to talk about and allow visiting of the site know as Tena Bar. Here again is a tale recalled with all the earmarks of another day in the life. We all know treasure MUST be buried, so the Cooper cash gets the deep six and therefore resides inches from a parachute laced skeleton. Alas there is no collateral evidence and geologists must be brought in to explain why Tena Bar does not resemble the locker of Davy Jones. Here the rancher recalls some litter of an unknown nature and origin existing along the high water mark of the beach. This story has less 'umph' than an eight year old 'digging' like a homesick devil through the Columbian shore on a February day with the efficiency of a gopher. How far could any of us dig in a snow covered shore in the coldest month of the year? Now the pressure bump and dredging operations should carry less weight as both appear to have similar genuine significance. That is less than presumed before. Cooper could have stepped out any time from Ms Mucklow's last observation to the final approach fix at Reno. The money with a darkened exterior could have been sitting on top of the surface with the appearance of any other debris from the perspective of an 8 year old. After all, dear ol' Dad didn't direct his son to 'smooth the sand' by that packet of green paper. Right?? The truth may set those free who are bound by previous stories, TV reports or books from the bargain bin at K-mart. Drink deep the possibilities fueled by rational thought guided by physics or at least common sense. The answer is out there somewhere and not necessarily 'out there!' There now, I feel better.

22 Sept 09 - Associated Press HOPKINS ACADEMY GRANT, Maine — Maine State Police say an Air Force parachute that possibly came from a C-45 cargo plane that crashed 53 years ago has been found in a rugged region of rural Maine. Lt. Wesley Hussey says the fully packed and unopened parachute with a 1952 tag was discovered two weeks ago in Hopkins Academy Grant, near Millinocket. Wesley told the Bangor Daily News that the Air Force suspects the parachute came from a cargo plane that crashed in 1956 while en route to the former Loring Air Force Base in northern Maine. He said as the aircraft was going down, the pilot and co-pilot were throwing things out in an apparent attempt to lighten the load. The plane ended up crashing in Millinocket, killing the pilot.

Snowman, Can I fly a C-123? If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going. What do I have? You got me. Exposed for the fraud I truly know I am, there is no reason to continue the charade. I was hoping through the use of a gargantuan sense of self importance and bluster to amaze and amuse untolled legions to bow at the alter of Farflung. Guessing Snowman isn't going to consider passing, let alone contributing to the offering basket. Analysis shining a light someplace new? How will I ever find out? The most simple of query must be passed through the Bureau of 'I Have Special Inside Information and a Massive Knob and You Don't', east coast division, before receiving another reference to the senders unappreciated greatness. Then a glancing jab is inserted as a test balloon measuring the receivers tolerance to data delivered by anonymous typists with a consuming self loathing; which will only be quenched by a contract that makes Faust look like he made the deal of the century. So in that sense, your right; I will not shine a light someplace new. I would add, after reading some of the past posts, that I probably don't want to see anything new for fear of turning into a column of sodium chloride. A descent into attack mode. The descent part is absolute and pure. Attack? You may need to review the definition of the antonym and try one more time without the personal bias inserted so deeply in a dark recess. Quickly? Darn right! This again is more reflective of tolerance than a burning desire to roll in the mud while wearing my mothers wedding dress. Some people need a complete experience akin to what Ned Beatty 'enjoyed' at the beginning of a canoe trip before they 'resist'. Age has given me caution with the ability to spot a dervish of ego at a much greater distance. Why on earth would one ignore these experience based attributes and end up in the woods, squealing at the top of their lungs.....again?

Georger, You are in 'left field' and entirely alone! Please, please....slowly this time, read my post...not all posts, just the last one. My intention was to supply allegory and the pit falls associated with present conduct. The sure fire model was an EXAMPLE do you understand this? It does NOT exist!!! I have NO model nor location for Jerry Thomas to search!!! NONE!!! Are the lights on? Are you so wrapped up in this fantasy that you have lost touch with an internet post that outlined the dangers of becoming over specialized? If I want to hire Jerry Thomas for $100 an hour to follow MY theory do you think he would refuse? Really?? Really??? What are your specific concerns? What else about my last ponderous post did you (Georger) find so disturbing?

Please consider this and make it second nature- I (maybe you) don't care if any one wants to investigate Cooper bailing out over Bluff Creek, CA and combining a search for D B and Bigfoot. I don't care! Moreover, make sure I don't care by simply allowing for the peaceful coexistence of other pursuits by keeping your agenda with the pictures of your naked 'whatever.' I don't care! When it comes to public interaction and the supply of rational information or anecdotes, well; now I care. I see this 'only one' theory or camp survival mentality as possessing little more than what could be expected from the medulla oblongata in a chess match. Learn to fail faster! Or as all women yell in bed 'Your doing it the wrong way!' I have some sure fire theory which is based on a computer model and has a result of XX near Vancouver, WA. Jerry Thomas could go there and investigate for expenses and a fee; but NOOoooooo. If it's not in the Washougal Shed then you don't know jack! The value of the internet has been squandered on the least deserving and most disruptive elements of the human condition. Rather than compounding talents spread across the entire globe we decide to segregate into smaller fragments of the same already small group of common interest. Meat pipe measurements. This is the single greatest waste of resources I've experienced in my life. If someone pushes you out of the way of an approaching train are you going to ask for their experience? If someone asks for the time, will you respond with - what's the hurry? If a person with tertiary Parkinson's is an eye surgeon would you consider their services? In a discussion about valve clearances would the CEO of GM have final say? Bizarre meet weird. I've been researching D B Cooper for 20 years and I'm an expert even though I can't get any where near the body. But if you need any information, you should contact me since I'm an expert. Now......read the above sentence and replace D B Cooper with who ever you want; I'm using Raquel Welch. Does this seem normal to anyone? Claiming extensive failure as a badge of honor? Am I an expert on Raquel Welch with credentials which are beyond reproach? You decide.

377, 1969912 and Snowman, Thanks for the humor, feedback and sanity check. I fumbled with the last part of my tome. I was trying to illustrate how the suggestion of reading all past posts to a new person would take almost a year to complete. While the clock was ticking would anyone know if I was diligently reading or simply left the forum in abject disgust? Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a 'Drama King' nor take my ball and go home. In all candor, after reading some of the comments produced by Jerry Thomas I probably spent too much effort trying to modify a behavior which serves no purpose. Jerry Thomas may not have the capacity to appreciate the consequences of his posts. This could be fueled by a blinding passion associated with Washougal or a simple lack of situational awareness driven by a void of social skills through a very limited and overloaded processor. I am supremely confident, Jerry Thomas has no idea what the last sentence conveys. PS- Mary Ann!!

New guy on this forum .Please read all past post before you make judgement. Realize that there is a lot of bad feelings. with some on this site. When it come's to fact and not fiction . We all will give you the truth.- Jerry Thomas WOW and for crying out loud. According to Jerry Thomas, I need to read over 13 thousand posts before making a comment about RADAR wave propagation and distance ambiguity. Guess I was too brusk and failed to illustrate how one could arrive at such a solution. I have no explanation for my troglodyte mannerisms and hope I didn't come across as a self important, self aggrandizing, semi literate with a displaced sense of ownership about the subject matter reflected in this thread. But I have obviously struck a sensitive chord somewhere in my preceding 7 posts and have absolutely no idea the cause. Additionally, by reading these posts I will better understand how to calculate time distance equations and wind effects. Man, I really wasted thousands and thousands of hours doing it the old fashioned way. Why didn't I realize expertise in D B Cooper includes individual encyclopedic knowledge of aviation, skydiving, navigation, meteorology, hydrology, airline operations, statistics, geography, pneumatics, psychology, criminology, military history, electronics, avionics, RADAR, air communications, currency archeology as well as studies on the habits of rubber bands in the wild? I simply thought I was adding a slightly different perspective rather than a 'smartest guy in the phone booth' dimension. Either way, I incorrectly viewed this data as dry and un-emotive simple physics which would be met with probative questions and intelligent validation. I had no intent of attacking the core and sole element of a persons self worth, I had NO idea a person would dedicate so much effort to such a trivial cause. Here again, I'm guilty of treating this as an intellectual lark rather than the deadly serious business it represents with a strong 'Lord of the Flies' overtone. Once a subject has morphed to this level of hierarchy it becomes a lifestyle rather than a problem to solve or ponder. The last thing a person wants, with decades time and untold thousands of dollars invested in a mystery in which they have self anointed as the Alpha expert - is a solution. Except for one unlikely event, this person is the one to solve the mystery; then they can continue to 'dine out' on this enigma for as long as possible. This data becomes MY theory, a person becomes THEIR suspect and other subtle forms of bias and ownership will enter the lexicon without correction or notice. Information will be offered without source or under the pretense of 'inside information'; adding how they are already endangering themselves with what they have disclosed! Of course such diction would be thrown out of any research paper submitted to the least prestigious of community colleges or script submitted to the most desperate of Hollywood studios. Usually a sense of dignity or shame keep others from engaging in like behavior. I would like to apologize for my petulant rants, lack of good graces, technical ineptness and obtuse party crashing. I would rather avoid the cyber scent-marking, self proclaimed 'legend' status and electronic man-tool length comparison contests so expertly displayed. In this case discretion is the better part of valor. By my calculations, reading forty posts a day, every day will take me 325 days plus the time to finish reading the 'delta' of posts produced during that time frame. But who am I to offer such complex maths without first reading "all past post"? I would realize there is hard feelings about reading 40 posts a day and never offer such data or modify my response to please the 'Alpha Cooperite.' My energies may be better invested in charm school or in the acquisition of some class. Learning about operating principles and how to better communicate without being abrasive, self important or demeaning to others would obviously be to my personal benefit. On top of that, the cryptic, double secret, double naught spy stuff is equal parts juvenile, creepy and all around disturbing. So I'm either going to follow that sage, kind and humorous advice so freely offered by Jerry Thomas or accept my technical, social and intellectual short comings and remove myself knowing I couldn't even achieve the vaunted rank of D B Cooper NOOB.

Snowman, I was taking liberties with some of the parameters in my post. 30 foot red and yellow widget versus a more precise description. My failed point was the improbability of discovering a small piece of sheet plastic in the woods by a man who had the brains to realize it may have come from an aircraft and notify the authorities. I was not trying to introduce new information nor muddy the waters.

377, Thank you for the correction, it was PITCH not yaw. What would Freud have said? I am under the belief that 305 was being hand flown since the auto pilot would not operate in their configuration (gear down, flaps N degrees, MCA, aft stair disengaged, etc) of course this could be some lore which I have manufactured and choose to make part of my reality. I'm equally intrigued by the dynamic character of the ground below V-23 from points 12 nautical miles north and south of Battle Ground. Approximately 8 minutes of flight from relatively wooded and sparse to some of the most dense urban area in the northwest. Any idea the exact location of that placard? Any clue about the free fall characteristics of a six inch squared piece of sheet plastic?

georger, Questions: 1. I sure agree there is no known forensic evidence 305 deviated much from V23 ... I want to be clear this is what you are saying? I assume YES? 2. How do you account for the "bump" at ~8:12 as distinct from oscillations? Do you have a physical explanation for the pressure bump, if it was a bump which I guess it was? (Bump as distinct from surge?) 3. How do you account for Rat saying: 'I could see the suburbs of Portland coming up...' ? 4. How and when do you think the money got to T-Bar? Even a personal guess .... ? 5. You refer to Cooper's "occupation"? What did you mean? Answers: 1. I have not been able to cross reference any positional reporting with DME, station crossings with IAS or other aircraft performance data which would indicate a deviation greater than one minute or 4 nautical miles from ground truth. If a nav leg is 85 NM straight line, with a reported indicated airspeed of 170 knots with an elapsed time of 29 or 31 minutes, there remains very little wiggle room for serpentine flight patterns or throttle adjustments. The fortuitous extrapolated winds aloft made the flight profile the most reliable element of the journey. Imagine if Cooper actually had some pre determined intersection to fly towards which was not on the airways chart? He could have ordered any NavAid to any radial and DME without regard for terrain avoidance! Additionally, with a 'nut' in the back of the plane lighting cigarettes above half a dozen sticks of high explosive while sipping bourbon would mark the highest level of awareness achieved in my time on the planet. Your mileage may vary. Considering these collective stresses, I would imagine the airmanship demonstrated by this crew was among their finest. 2. This is the question to possibly narrow the time Cooper departed. There are two different adjectives used by the FO and the FE. One used oscillation which I interpret to mean pulse or asymmetric yaw as if Cooper was moving down the stairs, step by step at the extreme end of the aft CG. This is just my GUESS. During the sled launch after the hijacking, the FE remarked when the sled was dropped there was a distinct pressure bump and jump on the cabin pressure indicator similar to the one experienced the night of the hijacking. This would seem a logical result of the weight being relieved from the aft stair. I have not found any reference to what time or where this occurred during the flight. I also assumed, the person flying would have noticed the sudden need for some trim adjustments after dumping several hundred pounds from such an aft location. That's my long chicken guano cop out answer. 3. The lights of Portland from an aviators perspective may have been the byproduct of spotting the HIRL, runway end and sequence flashers from PDX, Troutdale and Hillsboro. Airport lights are designed to be visible to aircraft through fog where the typical suburban lights are lower intensity and pointed toward the ground. The weather at SEA was discussed as 5 to 5.5 thousand and broken with light and traffic reporting aircraft in the pattern. Cooper was quoted as recognizing the lights of Tacoma (I believe). After takeoff they were at 7,000 feet while lowering the stairs and made no mention of wanting to climb higher or any chop. They continued to 10,000 feet without mention of any weather considerations, just altimeter changes in a range of 29.91 to 30.03 inches. Yes, I believe there was rain and overcast; just not the thick, menacing, lightening generating gully washer type. Recall how Cooper is described as ordinary, nothing special yet is wearing wrap around sunglasses during a thick overcast? I would consider a person wearing black sunglasses during a 'storm' as a little unusual. 4. Tena Bar is the ultimate of two wild cards dealt, in my opinion. Was a 30 foot red and yellow canopy or half a mile of lines discovered? Nope. A briefcase with some road flares and batteries? Nope. A canvas bank bag on the shoreline? Nope. Anything resembling a harness, D-ring or webbing? Nope. But the two most impossibly delicate remnants being a placard discovered in BFE by a litter conscience hunter! Combined with that US Treasury linen buried on the shores of the Columbia for a vacationing family to discover in February! These two events are so unlikely as to make NOT finding the other stuff appear strange. The only thought I have given Tena Bar is - water always finds it's level and that is down; and down the path of least resistance. So many years, could it have been in cold storage in Vancouver Lake? Did Cooper surgically prang himself into a mud flat/bar where the anaerobic environment would be less destructive to paper until a flood or dredge released the remains? 5. Sorry, I was trying to be a smart donkey with that reference. The paradox of accepting Coopers ability to precisely jump and land with an unwieldy 20 pound cloth covered hammer and escape detection or capture would make him an expert hijacker using the aft stairs of a 727. While also accepting as logical an experienced airline crew who just used the same airway suddenly blundering across the skies like Helen Keller with a wasps nest in the cockpit. I have NO idea what he may have done for a living.

Snowman, 8:52 (local) 305 reports over EUG VOR 10,000 feet and 170 kts indicated. 9:28 (local) 305 reports over MFR 10,000 feet and 170 kts indicated. 36 minutes of 170 knots is 102 nautical miles. Make sense? Eugene VOR to MFR is 99 nautical miles according to the Enroute L charts. 99 nautical miles in 36 minutes is a ground speed of 165 knots. That would translate to a direct headwind of 5 knots on average, at 10,000 ft for that period of 36 minutes. Or winds aloft of 150/05, between Eugene and Medford. This information seems pretty new! Even though it occurred in 1971. Nice modeling of the canopy drift to Tena Bar. What are the dependant variables required to drift to Tena Bar versus 'float'? There is no forensic data which would indicate 305 deviating more than 3 or 4 miles from centerline of the assigned airway. Keep in mind Portland International was/is quite capable of watching their airspace and made no contact or mention of an aircraft so terminally lost. This being flown by a crew which just hours before made the same journey without incident and made the following position reports and navigated to Reno just fine. Strange how groups of people, who fly for a living, some for decades; suffer a temporary bout of incompetence then recover. Equally vexing, is how adroitly Cooper was able to ply his vocation considering this was likely his only attempt. PS, Snowman please quit trying to find anything more sinister than simple maths and linear logic in my stupid little posts. I'm truly that big of a dork, you can relax. I think I've been showing my work (logic) and using words no stronger than 'may' and 'perhaps'; I'll try to tone it down and match the decorum laid by the preceding 500 pages.

1969912, Orange1, Thanks for the welcome. Snowman, RADAR data at 8:11 has a larger CEP because the site is 80 nautical miles away. (making an 80 foot putt) The aircraft 12 nautical miles north (12 foot putt) is using an instrument which was designed in concert with the Battle Ground TACAN to receive and display bearing and DME information to a crew of three licensed aviators. At that distance the width of the navigation beam being transmitted is about 1,200 feet versus the 6,100 foot ambiguity if they used the Olympia TACAN at the opposite end of the airway. Same equipment, same crew yet with an extra five thousand foot error per degree of deviation between planned course and instrument indication. All of these systems may supply a time and location within 1,200 feet (you may make an 80 foot putt and a 12 foot putt), however only Battle Ground has the ability to deliver this fidelity at every data point (out of the 80 or 12 foot putt, which will you make more often?). Yes one can use (manipulate?) data and create a foregone conclusion. The last guy that won the lottery was wearing pants therefore if I wear pants.... Using RADAR plots with an ugly track can verify position reports from closer sources which fall within DME and RADAR accuracy parameters but with a more refined and logical curve/shape. RADAR has a 'velocity gate' which rejects data that falls outside normal limits (going from 200 knots to 3000 knots) thus reducing noise and confusion. I think it would serve this subject well if there were some velocity gates. Why the single source approach? Have the bugs been shaken out of the 'official transcripts' after 35 years? How far can one reasonably drift under a military canopy from 10 thousand feet? 10 miles? 15 miles? The average skydiver would surely give me a quick education on jump dynamics and the many basic laws of physics which one would have to violate. The same holds true for pilots, what would it take to oops....WE are 20 miles east of course, ATC and RADAR failed to catch this and issue vectors, NONE of the crew noticed the RMI swinging through 30 then 40 degrees while we parallel an airway at 10,000 feet heading for Mt. St. Helens!! Hope this clears things up.

Snowman, You are correct with some caveats. Even today, there are vast regions of the western U. S. and most of Alaska not to mention the oceans which are not under RADAR coverage for tracking or traffic separation. This is managed through planned speed, take off and check point times and altitude control. Pilots are very good at maintaining track on a Victor Airway, with MEAs (minimum altitudes as not to hit mountains) and making turns based upon station passage or an intersection. What was the location of Flight 305 according to the pilots? They made position reports at 7:40, 7:43, 8:22, 8:52 and 9:28 (local) with IAS from 160 to 175 kts. Why such a large reliance upon the RADAR data with radial and DME to cross reference the planes location? Overhead Battle Ground TACAN occurred at 8:14 plus or minus 1 min. according to the crew transcripts. Tracking backwards in time 3 mins. to the report of oscillations places the aircraft 8 to 9 nautical miles north of Battle Ground TACAN. It is also 'documented' in the crew transcripts that Flight 305 at 8:22 (local) was "23 DME S PDX at 10,000'." By checking the AFD you will notice the radials of 131 through 230, for all altitudes and distances for the VOR/DME named PDX is unusable. Although a small error (9 nautical miles), if 305 were truly 23 DME south of PDX at 8:22, they would have been over Battle Ground TACAN at 8:11 (local) when the oscillations were detected by the crew. What to believe, RADAR, pilots navigation, communications transcripts, common sense?

A little review of the geometry and units of measure. Two specific points were utilized during the hijack in reporting the aircraft track. One was a surveillance radar (assume on McChord AFB) and the other being the Battle Ground TACAN. The radar was near the origin of the flight where Battle Ground TACAN was near the estimated jump site some 90 nautical miles south. Basic geometry using a one degree accuracy, at 60 NM distance would induce a one NM ambiguity. Correct so far? As the plane proceeded south, the positional accuracy from McChord became less precise while the width of the radial the pilots were following to Battle Ground became more refined (narrow). Beamwidth on long distance RADAR is typically around 3 degrees wide. If a target was 60 NM away, it would have an ambiguity of 3 nautical miles, at 90 NM distance that ambiguity would grow 50% to 4.5 Nautical Miles. Not knowing what type of RADAR or the location I have assumed a 3 degree beamwidth located on McChord AFB. Next is the time. Even near stall speed, they were covering 2.5 to 3 NM per minute. Around Battle Ground TACAN plus or minus one minute, with tracking from McChord is an ambiguity of 5 NM by 4.5 NM or 22.5 square nautical miles. How far off am I now? Information weighting. The pilots time of 20:11 (local) at which the hijacker jumped is the centroid from which all geopositional information radiates. Why? Conversations about missing approach plates, fuel exhaustion and some pressure oscillations have solidified near a crews radio transmission and a RADAR return at a less than optimum distance. At 8:11 the plane was barely 12 nautical miles from Battle Ground TACAN; radial and DME would be very precise at that distance yet appears unknown or unreported.. The tracking reports in 'statute miles' added yet another potential positional error. The Columbia River is 7 minutes from the time the crew reported some oscillations and 4 minutes after a turn following station passage of Battle Ground TACAN. All things considered, the time stamp of 20:11 combined with primary reliance upon RADAR (excluding crew input, Transponder tracks) is precise to the point of exclusion. What would the LZ footprint resemble if there were a few other levels of fidelity? T + 4 min, T + 8 min? If there was never any money found how would that be weighted?