NotBond

Yes and no - it seems mainly on Tandems. Lean back, lean forward (1), back, forward and exit (2). Even shows on my tandem vid. Is this so the passenger doesn't freeze on "three"? Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

I've been watching a lot of videos and they all seem to have one thing in common - the exit count seems to be two, not three. Is this correct? If so, why? Just curious...... Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

Bill, please do not take my comments as an insult to TI's. Far from it, you guys go way beyond the call, putting up with us geeky air riders just so we can puff out our chest on the ground and look cool to our friends - (and maybe quietly barf in the bathroom Not me, though!) I understand completly where you are coming from. I don't know if I would spend that much extra time going over harness details, mals, this and that, UNLESS the "rider" shows a genuine interest - or comes back a second time, like I did. Out of curiosity, if I came back to you as a second tandem, what would you teach me? Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

Same here, with the exception of loosening up the harness a bit under canopy. No "this is what will happen if we have a mal", or "you may want to help me with this". It may be particular to the instructor, too. That was my point - I think a lot of TI's probably consider tandems as "rides" as opposed to a learning experience. And that fine - most are. All the more reason to act with extra safety because the person strapped in front of you can be no help in a crisis, and may even become a hindrance (if they freak out, faint, vomit, etc.) In fairness, my first TI offerred me the toggles under canopy, but I was so queasy and out of my element it was 10 seconds before I even registered what he was saying! Maybe this conversation needs to be moved to Instructors forum? We're getting interesting viewpoints from both TI's and low jump "near whuffo status" folks...... Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

The safest ride you can. These aren't "students." They've got gift certificates for a fun ride. Isn't it thrill enough to free fall, deploy and land, without adding what is universally understood to be a "risky" maneuver near the ground? If they seem to be "students," let them pull, play with the toggles, etc. But don't expose them to dangers the SIM says I should never, ever take. Leave that to the hot dogs who risk (usually) only their own lives. Sure, it's okay for many, but for these tandems? That's a glorified carnival ride. It's what's advertised. It's what they think they're getting. So, if I tell my friend he should try a tandem jump, I have to add that the instructor, to whom he's entrusting his life in a situation he doesn't really understand, might be too physically weak or just plain tired to operate the equipment safely without help? If that's true, it should be added to the marketing literature so that the consumer knows as much as possible about the risk they're taking. Look. I'm obviously onboard for the sport. But I'm obviously not a TI or anything but a new student. But I read the Instructors forum and am not overly stupid. I've jumped a very little. I know it's physically damanding to crank out jumps and deal with the politics of the DZ assignments and all that, and the pleasure in giving good ride. And to be the star. But most people expect to survive (it's advertised as being safe), and if they don't, to die for some really good reason (within the confines of the sport). A last minute flourish with little room for error seems unncecessary even if it's done okay 10,000 times before it isn't. An error in judgement by the instructor is precisely what I'm trying to avoid by jumping with a professional in the first place. I understand the perils of misjudgement. I don't think the new tandem person CAN. They don't know anything about it. I get it. I've done it a little, had the full ground training, landed a few times (never well), and have my eyes wide open. I still don't know why or how, but I accepted it in all it's possible horror. The average person, I'm sure, sees the tandem as a risk-free (I should say, a professionally mitigated risk) chance to do something really dangerous, and live through it. A carnival ride, whether you let them participate or not. I'm also sure they expect that the sport involves a certain risk they can readily understand, but not that it involves other risks that may or may not be introduced by the instructor. And if they did, I don't think they'd opt for the riskier versions. Nicely said. Speaking as one of the "riders", that is exactly how I, and my family, saw it - it's a once-in-a-lifetime carnival ride for bragging rights. And I think some of that may come through when they get to the DZ, and the instructors pick up on it. My first tandem was just a ride, and I was trusting implicitly that my TI would keep me safe and walking away (thanks Brian!). As a paying customer, that's what I expect. The thought that he would do a situationally risky maneuver never even occurred to me (and I an NOT laying blame in this incident - just making a point). The second one was different. Now, I know I want to do this more, and I realize the risks. It not just shits and grins anymore. I asked to participate, and listened very closely, even though I was still at the mercy of the TI. My summation would be that TI's need to ask their customers why they are there - for a ride, or to learn something. Then proceed accordingly. But at all times, keep it mild and ultra safe. The passenger/student is entrusting his life to you by virtue of being physically attached. There is pretty much NOTHING he can do to save himself if something goes wrong. Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

I'll remember that this Spring... Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

Well, let's see.... If you are prone to motion sickness, take a couple Ginger tablets an hour before. And don't look straight down. RELAX! Make a conscious effort. Say it to yourself while breathing slowly. I know, sounds stupid, but when that door opens at 13K it's a whole 'nother world! Repeat the instructors directions, and double check on the way to altitude. I froze on exit and he had to pry my arms out.... The noise is loud. The first step is a biggie...but after that you are not falling, at least to your perception. Really, it doesn't feel like it. If you can participate with turns or altimeter checks, or canopy, DO IT! It's fun and takes your mind off the crazy thing you just did. And if you feel so-so afterwards, don't worry. It took me three days to process everything that happened, before I realized I wanted to do it again. Tell us how things went, I love comparing experiences - especially from jumpers in my own jump range...:) (Oh, and smile at the videographer if you got one - and watch them drop away when your canopy opens, that is too cool!) Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

I would agree. The voting for lesser of two evils still means your voting for an unacceptable choice - so don't. Vote your conscience. Vote for the person you think would be the best candidate, even if it means writing in the name. At least you are not "wasting" a vote. And, there are local races, proposals, etc., that need your input, so get out and vote for them. But don't sit it out totally. Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

Thanks! I actually did everything you suggested a couple weeks ago and the experience was sooo much better. I was trying to remember in detail what happened on the first jump. A lot is missing

Welcome! It sure is a rush, isn't it? Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

Yeah, you have to wait till your 16. You can start studying the SIM, and other reference books now, though. Good luck! Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

Farmgurl, I missed this thread somewhere. We are a lot alike - "seasoned" more than most, cargo on first tandem, drawn mysteriously to do a second one, and now planning AFF in the spring. I totally identify with your first post. I am so glad you did your second - you really start to get a taste of what can be yours if you reach out and take it. As for the "instructor dread" - I kinda wondered that myself, but my second TI gave me things to do in free fall - it was so cool! Are we "skydivers" - yes, in the strict sense, because we jumped out of an airplane. Are we SKYDIVERS - not yet, WAAAY much to learn yet. Are we gonna have fun doing it - You Know It! Stay in touch, it's nice to find another similar newbie here! Blue Skies! Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

They're probably picturing a group of explosives-laden suicide skydivers being dropped over a metro area. I don't really see what good the manifest would be if they blow themselves to smithereens...... Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

Glad to hear you're going again. I think you WILL have a different experience. Yeah, that first step out of the plane will just stop you cold! It's really cool that it only lasts for a second or so, then your not "falling" anymore. I try to explain it to people, and fail every time! Try this on the plane - breathe in slowly, saying "I Am", then exhale to "Calm". A few time doing that really helped me. And look at the horizon if you get queasy.... Have fun! I'll bet you have a totally different dive next time! Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

[replyIf you really want to know (which somehow I doubt) go for a walk along Lower Wacker Drive in Chicago and ask some of the people sleeping on grates down there if they will show you their drivers licenses. Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

ONLY IF SOMEONE IS ACTUALLY CHECKING... Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

C'mon. Do you really think that the little old ladies taking names at the polls are gonna catch something like that, if it's done halfway decent? Mickey mouse is registered in Florida as a voter! And, if I use absentee ballots (which seem to be all the rage in Milwaukee), it gets even easier. And YES, where I vote, out in the boonies, it's run by sweet elderly ladies...... Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

I don't think so: Milwaukee Journal/Sentinal Inquiry finds evidence of fraud in election Cast ballots outnumber voters by 4,609 By GREG J. BOROWSKI [email protected] Investigators said Tuesday they found clear evidence of fraud in the Nov. 2 election in Milwaukee, including more than 200 cases of felons voting illegally and more than 100 people who voted twice, used fake names or false addresses or voted in the name of a dead person. KMBC Kansas City: ACORN Workers Indicted For Alleged Voter Fraud POSTED: 5:02 pm CST November 1, 2006 UPDATED: 10:25 pm CST November 1, 2006 KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- Four people have been indicted on charges of voter fraud in Kansas City, officials said Wednesday. Investigators said questionable registration forms for new voters were collected by the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, a group that works to improve minority and low-income communities. ORANGE CITY, Iowa -- Thousands of deceased voters found in Houston with absentee requests mailed out. Millions of duplicate registrations made in many states. Thousands of Obama campaign-supported ACORN workers violating voter registration laws in most states. Having our legal votes canceled by fraud and corruption n priceless. There are lots more, but my mouse finger is getting tired....... Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

Because someone might find out you are an illegal, or felon, or other class that is not allowed to vote. It's bad if your an illegal, because you may lose the free Social Security, free healthcare, no taxes, and all the other benefits that come with shafting the system and living off the fruit of legal, hardworking American citizens. Can't have that now......might even lose your park bench. Working on my pariah status...... Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

You are correct. Ohio residency requirements do not use address, simply abode - which equates to the place one dwells, or lives. I remember having to show proof of address, I guess not anymore. Funny, I bet if I moved my family to a public location, i.e. park bench, and set up housekeeping, I'll bet we would be thrown out, even though it seems I can legally call it my residence. And multiple PO boxes wouldn't prevent multiple voting at all, just make it a trifle harder than listing every bench on public property.... Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

If you have to have an address to vote, that would imply that a homeless person can't vote. Personally, I would hesitate to call a PO box an address, because it says nothing about where you live. I don't know how old you are. But in my dad's day, African Americans weren't able to vote as easily as white people. Tacit acceptance of common definitions only works when people share a common perspective. The more people, and the more cultures, that we have in the US, the more likely it is that we will have to spell it out. Wendy W. Why do I seem to be the only person here that doesn't consider a park bench an address, residence, or abode? For the record, I'm 47. My father served in two military branches, Army and Marines, in two different wars, WWII and Korea. And I don't hink he would consider a park bench an abode, either! Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

I'm not saying people who are legally entitiled should not vote - but let's use some common sense - a park bench as a home? What is the address of said bench? Can you provide a utility bill for said bench? A park bench is NOT a private address, its NOT a mailing address. If one doesn't have a homestructure, there are Post Office boxes - I used one for years. Works just fine for voter registration. Many judges today won't use a shred of common sense, preferring to rule in a ridiculous fashion in order to avaoid "offending" someone, somewhere. You can open as many PO boxes as you like, all over the country as long as you are willing to pay the fees. So you really ARE saying that homeless, indigent people shouldn't vote. Wrong. I'm saying that park benches are not considered addresses. Go to the original story. I never said the homeless shouldn't vote. I never said indigent people shouldn't vote. I AM saying that in my Dad's day, this kind of ridicoulous time wasting (is a park bench an address? Let's take it to court!) wouldn't even have seen the light of day. Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

I'm not saying people who are legally entitiled should not vote - but let's use some common sense - a park bench as a home? What is the address of said bench? Can you provide a utility bill for said bench? A park bench is NOT a private address, its NOT a mailing address. If one doesn't have a homestructure, there are Post Office boxes - I used one for years. Works just fine for voter registration. Many judges today won't use a shred of common sense, preferring to rule in a ridiculous fashion in order to avaoid "offending" someone, somewhere. Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

Well, since I don't have to show a photo ID in a lot of places.....borrow someone's electric bill, smudge the address, forge the name - PRESTO! Another Registered Voter! Whatever happened to the America my Dad fought for? Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne

So, can I list my DZ as an address too and vote multiple times now? How about the the airplane hanger..... http://dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/10/28/ajudgerule.html?sid=101 Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyways... - John Wayne