rynodigsmusic

Sorry to come in and drop off, but I wont be able to respond for a couple of days. The spirit says that if one aint good enough sis, then two definitely wont be better! I know polygamy sounds pretty rad, Ill take 12 please, but spiritualy it challenges the desire for true content... Grace and peace "We didn't start the fire"

If you guys are really serious in expanding your argumentative cases, please read our posts in the latter sections of "an atheist speaks". We all inspire each other in many ways. I have many questions for you guys that were not addressed. We are all here in the spirit of curiosity and understanding right? I dont really want to write all that stuff over again

The LDS religion is based on the words and revelations of Joseph Smith, the first prophet, right? Section 132 of Doctrines and Covenants seems to say that the way to heaven/godhood/etc is through polygamy. Im really sorry, but will you please show me this in the Gospel or even the new testament? The only thing I have found in regards to Polygamy is when Paul is describing what a bishop in the church should be like, and he clearly says that they should have only one wife. If this is Paul, an apostle of Jesus saying that a leader in the church should have only one wife, then what does that tell us about the importance of Polygamy? Surely even a self proclaimed prophet would fall under "a leader in the church". When is the mormon church going to respond to this anyway? And again, Jesus says that a man leaves his family and unites with his wife and they become one flesh, and the Pharisees (who were mostly traditional and not spiritual) said that Moses gave us divorce....Jesus then said, "Moses allowed you to divorce because your hearts were cold, but it was not this way in the beginning" The mormon church says that they follow the Bible and the book of Mormon, but truth cuts us right down through the center of our very being. Hebrews says that it divides the soul and spirit and judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Sister, please just stay with the gospel. Come to God in all truth, confess your sins in all truth, humble yourself before the invisible God, believe that Jesus took your sins away with his own blood and that God raised Jesus from the dead, pray for the Holy Spirit and you will find the grace you need to persevere to holiness. There is no other way to becoming the righteousness of God. Then learn to understand the power of FAITH, HOPE, and LOVE. Feel free anytime to ask more questions. I am not familiar with LDS but I follow Jesus with all my heart and I can help you with what the Word says when you like. Realize that I get more encouragement out of encouraging others, so that seems to be my joy. Do not get caught up in traditions, it is tradition that murdered Jesus. As men followed traditons and stopped following the spirit of goodness. I challenge any Preacher of the LDS right now to show us otherwise in the real word of God that Jesus died for. When did salvation come through anything but faith in grace???? This is absolutely fundamental to the growth of the spirit. I am sorry about the passionate response. "We didn't start the fire"

So how exactly is Joseph Smith different from Martin Luther or any of the other Protestant leaders over the past 5 centuries? I am only saying to keep your guard up against those claiming to be from God (this is all throughout the New Testament). Truth will expose them all in the end, but not before they finish their purpose here, which is to decieve others who are desiring Christ by mis-leading them and making them think that they themselves are the embodiment of the word. It is with truth that we love God and it is with truth that we love one another. If I am guilty of something and condemn you for being guilty of something that is not living by the truth. Jesus himself said it is better not to marry, but he did not say do not. It is clear that the number of wives you have, or do not have, has nothing to do with the spirit. It would be like someone saying that circumcision, or washing the hands, or some other religious tradition should be re-instated into the conscience becasue they heard God, say that they should. It goes against the spirit of grace, by adding to the conscience blemishes that were erased by the blood of Jesus. This is how false prophets operate. Joseph Smith did just this and therefore found control over the minds and hearts of so many who do not even really get the chance to live free of these opressed traditions that have nothing to do with the spirit. When Jesus came, he embodied the Entire word of God, traditions and all, and he said, speak the truth, love God, and love one another. If truth is not revealed amongst those who are made to guide us, then what are we to think? It is not hard at all for someone to use Jesus' name for power. But imagine, a minister who tells you he is cleaner than he really is. All I am saying is speak the truth. James said above all let your yes be yes and your no be no, or you will be condemned. There are hypocrites leading in some of our churches, they dont know they are hypocrites, which makes them even more dangerous. They make it seem as if they are the ones you should follow....im just saying keep your guard up. If you have the spirit in you, then you have a spirit of discernment that easily warns you about someone especailly the more sensative you become. There is a prophetic voice, and there are those who say they are prophets. The voice comes from Jesus and it is full of grace and truth, not all prophets come from Jesus. MLK has made my cry in many of his speeches, I just love him, but he never claimed to be a prophet and his fruit was completely recognizable as that of Jesus'. And MLK never tried to start another religion. You dont know me, so I have no credibilty among you, but try today to speak your deepest darkest secrets to God, see how hard it is, but how much freedom his grace gives you. I get a feeling of innocence from some of the leaders in the church, and that is not from the spirit of truth. We are not innocent, we are guilty, dark, evil. Gods grace, his grace is the only reason we can talk to him with confidence. The fruit of those who follow Jesus and who teach his ways should be obvious to any believer, but truth, grace, and humbleness are the greatest. Jesus washed the disciples' feet. God washed the feet of man...are you worthy of that? I know im not, but it is that truth that feeds us his grace. What can someone tell you that goes beyond that of truth and grace? This is a question. Sorry about the length "We didn't start the fire"

Sorry, I didnt realize I was! You must have some good hearing ALL CAPS equals SHOUTING! It considered impolite in internet forums (unless your intent is to come across as shouting), just so you're aware.

The problem I have with Joeseph smith is he introduces a religion based on Christianity, but the Christian faith needs no more and no less than the Gospel. Truth tells us that the character of the "modern day prophets) should be full of love, full of humbleness, full of grace, full of TRUTH, full of mercy, kindness, gentleness ect...If someone in this day can stand in front of God and say that he is a prophet, I have a hard time believing that the humbleness that is born within him would allow that. What I mean is that a true servant of Christ, if he is follwing the spirit, will not say that he is a prophet. We are nothing without grace, be careful who you believe to be from God and keep your guard up to keep from falling into the mighty and powerful hand of the false prophet. Grace is given in truth, if a guide you meet is not truthful with you in all things, keep your guard up and be careful of the strength in his words. Just as life flows from the lips so also does death. If love is not clearly present, be very careful. Personally, if it is the spirit you live by, I would stay away from Joeseph Smith. Revelations curses anyone who adds to the New testament. We do not need anything more than truth and grace. I hope this is clear and not too convicting, so sorry. Its just that I am very passionate about exposing false prophets and keeping brothers and sisters from straying from truth. They use the power of Gods word to decieve, remember that. That is some serious power. Do you remember when Jesus was tested in the desert that satan himself used Gods word against Jesus? (of course he didnt prevail) A guide should be as humble with you as he is with God, that shows true fear and holds him accountable for what he says. True fear will find love my sister. Grace and peace, "We didn't start the fire"

Thanks for the link. He says it much more eloquently than I've been able to. Ill bet you are closer to Jesus than you think. Looking for an eloquent way to express your love for life and others seems to be what you have been trying to say? What more eloquent way than to say that I dont know you, but I would die for you? I remember just before I came to Christ, I came to a point in my life where I said, no matter what, im not gonna judge anyone for anything, I dont care what it is, Im gonna accept everyone for how they are and just try to live as peaceful as I can, with as much love in heart as I can. When I read the gospel, I was ecstatic to see that Jesus taught the same thing. I already wanted to be good and to do the right thing, just hearing Jesus say it, and talk about not worrying about tommorrow, and treating others the way you want to be treated, and finding the fullness of life, and seeing him talk against the very thing that was keeping me out of the church... I mean if you havent read the gospel (3 hours max to read the whole thing), I would be careless and mean if I didnt at least lead you that direction. As people want to share the good things in thier lives with others. Though it may be hard to believe, I found a life that I cannot express to you in words, if I were to try, I would say brighter, and more colorful. It is amazing what happens to us when we believe in love and let it in, as I always say LIFE IS LOVES GREATEST GIFT! "We didn't start the fire"

Sorry, I didnt realize I was! You must have some good hearing "We didn't start the fire"

Science and common sense for that matter can easily disprove some of the idiotic, naive, selfish, greedy, unplausable, fucked up scenarios and fables the bible throws at us all. if you truly believe that this world, solar system, galaxy, universe.... has been created specifically for human beings to use.... ...then you are a stupid idiot. Science can prove that. PLEASE GO BACK AND READ ALL OTHER POSTS BEFORE COMING IN AND SAYING WHAT HAS BEEN SAID BY OTHERS IF YOU EXPECT AN ENGAGEMENT WORTHY ENOUGH TO AT LEAST SUSTAIN YOUR IMAGINATION. WHAT YOU HAVE SAID SEEMS EMPTY TO ME. I DONT NEED SCIENCE TO TELL ME I AM A STUPID IDIOT, I AM TOLD THAT ENOUGH BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU!! Science 'can' also prove that you love your daughter. Carry a little bitterness do ya? Im sorry but I just dont believe that science can tell me whether or not I love someone. You realize that a statement like goes against rational thought right? You have manged to take most of the great artwork throughout the history of time, and reduce one of the most indescribable and powerful feelings known to us to a simple proof (that you cant prove by the way) that you might just go ahead, define, put in the table of contents, and whala, presto, here is some love for you. You should have a commercial, or a 1-1800 number promising love to all those in need. I am amazed that someone looking for proof and evidence would say something like this...can someone please help me here? We may not believe the same things, but come on, where do we even attempt to agree with one another? Im sorry friend if I got a little sarcastic, but please please think carefuly about what you say to people. Your words have more power than you think amongst the more easily influenced. "We didn't start the fire"

Sorry, but that is just beautiful. "We didn't start the fire"

What do you build/fix them or something?? I know this is totally off subject, but do you like macs or pc's better? Lame question I know, but I am actually curious especially if your a computer guy. Part of my job at times is fixing computers. My current title is Network Administrator. Right now I mostly do programming. Yeah, work kinda burns me out too! Right now I am at 60 hrs a week. Isnt funny how inconvenient work is...at least for me anyway, it sounds like at least you are doing something that you enjoy and interests you?? I have very little experience on Macs and really don't have much interest in them. Most companies are PC based. Once I am at home I don't spend much time on the computer any more. Work kinda burns me out anymore. "We didn't start the fire"

A word from your heart is very powerful, even, eternal. Thank you Jesus! "We didn't start the fire"

People search for truth from all over, they need evidence and proof. But if you search from your heart, you will find love and if you find love, you will find power. After that, you dont need proof anymore, the power is all you need. Do you need proof that you love your children? Do you need proof that you love anything? So, does love need proof or is it just that powerful? Can proof explain the love you carry or your willingness to give your life for someone you love? Or a better question, would proof keep you from loving someone you love, if it was evident or factual that they do not love you? Meditate just for a brief moment on the power and influence of love in our lives...If I was going to believe in anything that was invisible, if it didnt have the power of love in it, I would not have believed at all. Because for those who have found faith, LOVE IS MORE POWERFUL THAN DISBELIEF. But, I still would like an answer to whether or not love needs proof to be real. Isnt what proves love something that is also invisible and found from within? TRUST? And isnt fear something that is overcome by trust? When you ask someone to marry you, you have to go through a world of fears to rest on trust right? But you do it because love is more powerful than even fear. Is it such a bad thing to believe that God made everything to serve the purpose of good, and that all those who live according to this purpose will live in the power behind it? I speak from my heart, I am not good, but I live in the power of love, and isnt a quality of love a desire to share, teach, and prosper both the giver and the reciever? I am simply sharing with you all, and so far you havent crushed me in a hail of rage, and anger, for that I say thank you. Deeply thank you. "We didn't start the fire"

i have read your post a few times now and still not quite sure what your trying to say.. Anyway lets make this simple, im afraid you can believe in whatever but the plain and simple fact is that at the end of the day there is still to this day not 1 piece of evidence to show that the historical figure of Jesus existed, not one... the bible is written by authors unknown many years after his claimed life. No other historical text from authors of the time mention him.. ----------------------------------------------------------- Im sorry my post wasnt understandable, but in the midst of trying to explain myself words sometimes get in the way. But in response to your reply i can only say that now we are on the dividing line of those who have faith and those who do not. I have already said that the "evidence" in those who have faith is found in thier testimony, the one you cant hear becasue faith is not found outside of your own heart. It is not something that you can buy, go to school for, or earn. It is a gift, and it is given by truth, no one with faith has found it genuine without repentance. Unless you feel you have something to repent from, you will never find truth within yourself, therefore you will never find faith. Even if you saw the sun fall into the ocean, or the stars fall from the sky, it is impossible for you to believe, because in your heart of hearts you truly dont believe in even the possibiltiy of God, therefore you dont live by truth. Do you really think that Jesus was wanting everyone to see him? If that is the case why didnt God send him in this century, where he could do some miracles on CNN or something? We believe in the spirit he died for and it is that faith, that belief that brings us the love our hearts were seeking, the endless love of an endless God. It is the love which inspires us and the Fact that whether your evidence leads to the proof of his walking or not, that the Gospel that we have says that he Died for God, so that we might believe in God and Gods love, and so that we might Fear God and learn to love one another deeply from the heart. Is it not factual to say that the Gospel says this? ----------------------------------------------------------- We know adam and eve never existed so that makes a mockery of the concept of original sin, which is the basis for jesus death on the cross, so in turn makes a mockery of Christianity.. ----------------------------------------------------------- Again, sin casues guilt whether you believe it or not. Guilt falls on the conscinece and is either immediately forgiven by the love of someone else, or it is hidden deep within, in places of secret in our hearts, not wanting to be revealed because it never wants to be acknowledged as evil. Jesus was the guilt offering, thats in the bible (Isaiah 800yrs before the birth of Christ) If you believe you are sinless, then you are a man without guilt, or so you think anyway. Truth should expose your guilt, if you live by the truth, if not, your guilt will surely remain. I say this as humbly as I can. ----------------------------------------------------------- I appreciate there are many marvels of the universe that you/we dont understand but attributing them to some creator or sky god doesnt make them real.. ------------------------------------------------------------ God is spirit, you are a reasonable person, yet it is not reasonable to believe in spirit? Have you never been inspired by anything before? So that inspiration which fuels your thoughts and motivates you through feeling, in your mind, just simply doest exist? "We didn't start the fire"

IRONY SCORE 10/10. Reason and logic have nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Your belief in invisible friends without asny evidence defies all reason. That is a very interesting formula the 3=2 thing. Where did you learn that? BUt to continue...Is it reasonable to deny that Hope feels good? Is it reasonable to deny that Love feels good? Is it reasonable to say that faith, (which is only proven in those who have it) is unreasonable but theory is not? How did theory get so much power all the sudden? And what if theory convinces you to hate others for no reason, is it reasonable to hate who ever you like and to possibly want to kill them just because you feel like it? Faith does not defy reason my freind, it exists to give people the lives that deep down they really want. Is it not reasonable to exhaust all avenues that lead to a better, more fulfilling life? We have all felt love, hope, and faith in some measure, but not all of us have found these things in God, who is eternal. Just try to imagine for a second the great beauty of knowing that God is not only real, but that he loves us dearly and wants us to find life in him, which is life in all goodness and truth. Who do you have in your life that you can be 100% honest and truthful with, who will love you no matter how much you screw up, whos very pleasure is to give you joy, compassion, and Love, who understands you better than you understand yourself, who doesnt feed your shame with guilt, but comforts your weakness with understanding? Ultimatley this is what we all seek, but never find. Faith finds this. So again, I ask humbly, is it not reasonable to at least want to believe in something so great? "We didn't start the fire"

What do you build/fix them or something?? I know this is totally off subject, but do you like macs or pc's better? Lame question I know, but I am actually curious especially if your a computer guy. "We didn't start the fire"

Now there is an understatement! Whats up Beowulf!

... said the blind leading the blind. "without a shred of supporting evidence"? That's hyperbole. Some of the best evidence is in logic. If the universe suddenly came into being with NOTHING having existed, matter-wise, what would you say caused its existence? If we bring logic into the equation then you can kiss your silly skygod good bye... but to entertain you for a moment, we dont know that the universe "suddenly" came into being with NOTHING having existed before. The Universe might have always been there. In the same way when believers are asked who created the creator, the common belief is that the creator was always there, so using the same LOGIC then we can say that the universe might have always been there.... Wow! Im sorry, I dont really understand?? But that doesnt suprise me. Im really not that good at logic, but I know that there are minds in this world that just get it. For me, I ask, in our limited concept of the invisible, the likes of which we pull from only what is seen or percieved by the imagination, how do those who believe in a creator lose what seems to me to be a simpler logic? Meaning, how can a creator (again with our limited concept) be created? Jesus told us that God is spirit and that he is invisible, is it so hard to believe that this spirit carries the wisdom of the balance of the universe? Wisdom itself being invisible and only manifesting to us in what is seen and what is imagined? I hope this isnt too confusing, but simpler I guess is even though we can prove wisdom, there is nothing that leads me to believe it wasnt there at the beginning our what we percieve to be creation. Is there with you? I SEE NOW, YOUR SAYING THAT THE UNIVERSE WAS ALWAYS THERE, OR AT LEAST ENTERTAINING THE POSSIBLITY, RIGHT? I CANT SPEAK FOR ALL CHRISTIANS, BUT I BELIEVE THE UNIVERSE MAY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THERE AS WELL, LIKE A STRAIN FOR ETERNITY OR SOMETHING, BUT AGAIN, IT DOESNT MEAN THAT WISDOM WAS NOT THERE AS WELL DOES IT? A couple of posts ago i said that it is not entirely too impossible to believe that there is time operating in another dimension in space...You should read that post, if you havent already. What I like about scientists is their imagination and thier pursuit of limiltless possibilities, I just dont like scientists who completely deny even the possiblity of the existance of God and use fancy terms that only educated people can understand to "prove" to others what has not been proven. In essence dont tell me that faith is not an answer at all, but that what ever evidence your theory leads you to is. If they themselves dont want to believe in God, that is totally ok, its when they prey on the minds of the less educated and rob any shred, of the faith, hope, and love that is recived from an eternal front. Because as I said earlier, even if science does go on to prove what it seeks, love and forgiveness will still be needed on the earth, or deception will prevail. Since I believe that the wisdom in the balance will not let evil prevail (i believe it was defeated on the cross) or become greater than good, there will always be a need for those who desire to live radically in love, even loving those who hate them most. "We didn't start the fire"

... said the blind leading the blind. "without a shred of supporting evidence"? That's hyperbole. Some of the best evidence is in logic. If the universe suddenly came into being with NOTHING having existed, matter-wise, what would you say caused its existence? If we bring logic into the equation then you can kiss your silly skygod good bye... but to entertain you for a moment, we dont know that the universe "suddenly" came into being with NOTHING having existed before. The Universe might have always been there. In the same way when believers are asked who created the creator, the common belief is that the creator was always there, so using the same LOGIC then we can say that the universe might have always been there.... Wow! Im sorry, I dont really understand?? But that doesnt suprise me. Im really not that good at logic, but I know that there are minds in this world that just get it. For me, I ask, in our limited concept of the invisible, the likes of which we pull from only what is seen or percieved by the imagination, how do those who believe in a creator lose what seems to me to be a simpler logic? Meaning, how can a creator (again with our limited concept) be created? Jesus told us that God is spirit and that he is invisible, is it so hard to believe that this spirit carries the wisdom of the balance of the universe? Wisdom itself being invisible and only manifesting to us in what is seen and what is imagined? I hope this isnt too confusing, but simpler I guess is even though we can prove wisdom, there is nothing that leads me to believe it wasnt there at the beginning our what we percieve to be creation. Is there with you? "We didn't start the fire"

I could not have said it better. you have a magnificent heart, I only wish I would have read your response before I sent mine. Really sorry brother. Truth and love is missing in many churches, it is amazing to me that truth just seems to flow once we see how evil we really are isnt it? "We didn't start the fire"

You've obviously never had any experience with the Baptist church. I grew up listening to how I was going to Hell in eternal damnation for three hours every Sunday. I dont think that they told you that you were going to hell, they cannot make that judgement, what they told you was that if you dont live by the truth, repent and become born again, that you are already subjecting yourself to hell in your heart. We have an interesting concept of hell, but if Jesus says that heaven is in the heart, then hell must be as well. Do you agree that there is a dying worse than death? then there must be a life better than living? The line between the two is truth, and truth told us that we are all evil, even the worst of sinners, and that we all need to repent, or we will perish. Why is having a fear of Hell such a bad thing? It is not easy for true Chrisians to talk to people about hell, but Jesus spoke about it alot, so we have no choice. And most certainly I agree with Tankbuster, No Christian would WISH hell on anyone. If we learned anything about life it is that truth has a lighter burden, but it still has a burden. Ever been to prison? Go talk to some inmates who have been in there 20 years, doing time for something they did when they were kids. If you had the chance to possibly save this man, even though he would do what he wants anyway, would you say anything? Telling people about hell is about compassion, I am sorry if thier intent to show the love of God was overshadowed by their intent to breed fear. Fear alone is just fear and the fruit of those who live that way is obvious, but fear which finds hope and love, finds the love of God. For example, what good is it for me to do something good for someone just so that I dont go to hell? What have I gained? But, if I do something good for someone out of love, then I have gained love, becasue it truly is better to give than to recieve. Fear God, but live in his grace and truth as a beleiver, in my heart I cant give you better advice. Just talk to him with all the truth in your heart, your evil, your weaknesses, your faults...do you not think he knows them already? Yet he shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Fear is good, but love is the goal. God loves those who love him. As I said earlier, fear is meant to humble us so that we might recieve the love that is given beyond our own ego and pride. There is love given in humbleness and remorse my friend. If you are guilty of something but deeply remorseful, say something you did to someone you love here on earth, the love you recieve when they forgive you is great and will keep you on the right track "We didn't start the fire"

That's not proof. I could get the same standard of proof from practitioners of any religion. Again, the whole angle of your attempts at persuasion here is based on the notion that the atheists you're talking too are all as hung up and bothered about what's going to happen after death as you are. Now, I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's simply not true. When I die, I'll be gone and I see absolutely no point in worrying about it. I am not trying to persuade. I am only speaking what I consider to be true. If it has persuasion, then it is not me, it is the truth I am speaking. All other religions are not based on life after death alone, they only survived because of the life that is revealed right here on earth. If one believes in a life that is eternal as if to be part of the spirit in which he became apart of, then naturally he would feel some of that spirit right here in this life. Eternity existed before you or I my friend, It seems to me that it is not an entirely impossible concept. Have you ever considered what time really was, or what space really is? Isnt possible that there are dimensions that very well could be operating outside of what you percieve to be time and space? Dimensions of which that operate on influence and inspirations, or way, way beyond your deepest imagination even? Jesus said that if you dont understand when I talk to you about earthly things, how could you understand if i talk to you about heavenly things? The spirit says if you live by truth, you will live in the spirit of truth, if you live by deception and lies, you will live in the spirit of deception and lies. If what is in me is persuasive, I cannot apologize for that (not that I dont want to), because what is in me, speaks for itself. I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ATHEISTS, AS I SAID BEFORE SEVERAL TIMES, IT IS THE SELF RIGHTEOUS HYPOCRITES THAT CAUSE ME FRUSTRATION!! Please at least try to understand that. There is a spirit in the church (not all churches) that does not operate in truth, they keep Jesus at the head by preaching his word, but they dont speak the truth to each other and to others outside the church. I cannot stand in front of God with innocence. I can only stand in front of God because of his grace, its nothing that I have done, or do, its all God. So finding people in the church who think they can, hurts my spirit and cuts me right down to the bone...but as for atheists, i dont have anything against them and if i wont judge people in the church, I will not judge people outside the church. I dont follow the spirit of judgement, but the spirit of salvation that frees us from judgement. It is truth that judges people in their own hearts. I cannot reveal truth to you, it has to be revealed to you from inside your own heart. So again, I have nothing against atheist. But one of Jesus' greatest commands was "do not worry about tommorrow, tomorrow will take care of itself" "and do not be afraid or let your hearts be troubled" "I have come so that they might have life, and have it to the fullest" Are these things that go against what you believe on the inside? "We didn't start the fire"

Yes. I JUST SHOWED YOU THAT EVIL WAS NOT AN ABSTRACT CONCEPT, THAT IS OPERATES IN DECEPTION, AND YOU STILL BELIEVE IT IS ABSTRACT??? EXPLAIN. No, some evil people believe themselves to be good. I ALREADY SAID THAT EVIL BELIEVES IN GOOD. AND WHAT YOU SAID FURTHER PROVES THAT EVIL IS NOT ABSTRACT, THAT IT WORKS ON DECEPTION. I'd say you were devaluing the word to the point of uselessness. IS SPEAKING THE TRUTH DEVALUING SOMETHING? EXPLIN HOW I AM DEVALUING THE WORD? I AM GIVING THE WORD POWER ARENT I? WE WOULD NOT KNOW THE TRUTH HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR THE LIE, AND WE WOULD NOT KNOW GOOD HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR EVIL, SO BOTH ARE POWERFUL, BUT ONE IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER, JUST LIKE LIFE AND DEATH, BOTH VERY POWERFUL, THE INFLUENCES OF JUST THE WORD INSPIRE THOUGHTS, BUT LIFE IS BETTER IF YOU LIVE BY THE TRUTH. Its like the yin and the yang concept, both balance each other out, the power is in wisdom, the very foundation of the balance and therefore with wisdom we choose which life we will lead. Yes. Why? BECAUSE, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, WE ARE APART OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSAL BALANCE, GOOD IS FOUND IN EVIL AND IF IT SEES ITS OWN POWER, IT BECOMES STRONGER IN GOOD, LIKE US, A COLLECTIVE ENTITY OF GOOD AND EVIL IN WHICH BOTH EVIL AND GOOD ARE IN A BALANCE. THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT JESUS IS THE ULTIMATE GOOD, LOVE WHICH LOVES EVEN EVIL, THEREFORE SHOWING LOVE TO BE GREATER THAN EVEN EVIL. WE HAVE IT SAID THAT WISDOM HAS SOMETHING ELSE IN MIND WITH NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT WITH HIS OWN CREATION. WHO ARE WE TO QUESTION HIS PURPOSE OR WILL? WILL NOT WISDOM, WHICH HOLDS THE BALANCE OF BOTH GOOD AND EVIL DO WHAT IT WANTS? With the intelligent thought comment, I was not using sarcasm, I was simply giving your ear to the possiblilty that you (and i) are evil, and that evil is intelligent and capable of thought. Becuase you said earlier that "there is no invisible entity (of evil)" something like that. You'd do much, much better if you didn't go around assuming you know what everyone else is thinking. You are right, my intent wasnt to tell you what you believe, I am sorry that it came out that way. I need to go back and re read that reply. Again, I am sorry. "We didn't start the fire"

Yes. No, some evil people believe themselves to be good. I'd say you were devaluing the word to the point of uselessness. Yes. Why? You'd do much, much better if you didn't go around assuming you know what everyone else is thinking. Ok, I see that no matter what I say, you at least are going to argue against everything, so that means reason is lost on you. It seems you would rather be right than speak the truth from your heart, which is ok, like I said, man in nature in not good. Consider just for a moment that God is real and that there is a judgement after this life and even during this life. Could you stand in front of God and plead your case with him, who treats all humans impatially? You dont have to respond, just ask yourself to reveal what is not good in your heart. Consider in Gods eyes what he has to see day in and day out. People all day long living steeped in rebellion and sin and claiming all along that they themselves are good. This is worse than sin in Gods eyes, this is a lie, and the reason it exists is because of deception. Now deception is what the nazis basic core was operating in and why they were able to do what they did, it is very powerful, and only the truth can reveal its stain. If you dont live by the truth, then you think your good, if you live by the truth, then you know you are not good and that you need to be forgiven. Now you will say that is not fair, but God has offered life to those who live by the truth and he has shown death to those who have been decieved by the lie. So of course, since I am a believer, I dont have a scientific view on revealing the truth within others, and I myself cannot judge someone else, because I know my own evil self. If you find someone who understands they need grace (forgiveness in Gods love, offered in Christ on the cross) then you find a humble man, who desires to humble himself before God, so that this grace which feels so good can sustain us in all circumstances, good and bad. Think for a second in your own life how good being forgiven for something you did terribly wrong feels. Being forgiven is a reward that gives life. Think about what being forgiven feels like just in the human body, if youve never felt it then I cant explain its power. An adulteress begs forgiveness from her husband, A guilty man begs forgiveness and is given mercy. You will find out real quick how powerful the human heart can be when it is free to forgive and be forgiven, and I believe you would be hard pressed to find that definition of that power in the dictionary or any scientific formula for that matter. In forgiveness you get Truth, Humbleness, Humility, Love...im mean the list goes on and on, and these qualities are the search of not just spiritual men and women, but of the very core of our hearts and they give power to what it means to be human. But at the same time, you get another gift, if your request for forgiveness is genuine and in truth, you get trust. Jesus brought the power in forgiveness to us and therefore brought life to all those who found it. This is the most practical, and reasonable way I can explain the life found in those who come to God for forgiveness. Now many will say that they have done nothing that warrents any forgiveness, I am sorry, but they do not live by truth. The designer of our our being knew the qualities and character that would bring us life to the fullest. If forgiveness feels good, love feels good, hope feels good, trust feels good ect...just on an earthy and mortal front, then imagine what it feels like on an immortal front, when you really believe thaty you have these gifts from God, who will never die, never leave, is full of compassion, mercy, and love. We had no "proof" of this until Jesus, now after Jesus, since the knowledge he gave us and the spirit he released to us, there are many thousands who live in the goodness of this light. No design? Why is it that desiring to be good and do good, makes us feel good? Maybe the designer himself is good??? YOu said you need proof, the proof is in the testimony of those who have been touched by this power. We are not self righteous, we are redeemed sinners (we are VERY familiar with the lie), redeemed by the same truth you are hearing, and living life in the fullness of the power in the qualities born from not being good, but being made good through the blood of Jesus. And a very interesting design of this goodness of life is a new found powerful desire to continue on the same path. LISTEN to those empowered by this spirit of goodness and grace and you will find all the proof you need. The thing is, you cannot find what they found until you release the truth to God, repent, and recieve the Grace given freely in Jesus. "We didn't start the fire"

Uh, no. Evil is an abstract concept, not an intelligent entity capable of thought. As I said earlier in one of the replys, it is not me forcing my belief on anyone. A thread was opened in a public forum and since everyone else was so liberal in expressing their views, I thought I might lend some thinking to you all that was born from lots of thinking, listening and reading. I know the spirit which is what you all are arguing against, wouldnt you want to hear the other side you all so adamantly debate against so as to fill your thoughts with more "evidence" against those you argue with in the future? Even scientist collect all the evidence before they come to a conclusion right? Evil is an abstract concept? Do you consider the Nazis to be good or evil? Yet the Nazis themselves considered themself good and loved each other? So, evil believes in good. A rebel believes what he is fighting for is right, but that doesnt mean that it is good. What if I told you that you and I were evil? How would you respond to that? Are you not intelligent and capable of thought? We are all born rebellious and evil in nature, instinctive and sinfull. We all have the choice to follow our own evil desires or to follow good. If we choose to follow good, we must be born into the spirit of goodness. We must find a desire to become good and this takes learning the detriment of evil and the pain and unrest it breeds. When we see the truth within us, that we are all evil, none of us are good, then we find a need to repent, becasue no one really wants to be evil, just like the nazis. They thought they were good, and doing a good thing, but we know that they were evil. This my freind is called DECEPTION. Yet even the nazis didnt sin more or less than you or I, and even the nazis could be saved under the blood of Jesus. Love covers a mulititude of sins. Now you believe, as do many atheist that they have done nothing that needs forgiveness, and this is now your moment of truth. Your response need not be to me but to God. Are you sinless? Is there nothing you are guilty of? This is something that I cant show you, no one can show you, but only you and your conscience knows. There are people in the church who believe they are clean and innocent. I CALL THEM HYPOCRITES and I am more against them than anything, becasue it is the self righteous hypocrite that is responsible for Gods name being blasphemed. Christians are people of truth. They speak the truth especially in humility so that others may see that is a quality of true love. If someone speaks the truth, then they speak from the heart and there is nothing false in him. Only you can know if you speak the truth or not. Listen to some of your thoughts sometime and see if you think they are evil. Then try not to entertain them and see if evil is an entity or not. Just see if it doesnt have more power over you than you think. When you try to repel a thought becasue you know the outcome is not what you want, you will see that you yourself want what is good, but something within you operating in inspiration wants the opposite. When you have this battle, you will know if you are a slave to sin or not. Jesus says "all those who sin are slaves to sin" But please dont kid yourself, evil is real, and humans are the host. But love is real as well and humans are the host. Call it what ever you want, the reality is one is for good, one is for evil. One person murders, rapes, thieves, he lies, cheats, uses deception, without limit without care, the other is radically passive and passionately truthful, full of mercy, tenderness, and love. "We didn't start the fire"