rynodigsmusic

Quote>What if what you witnessed might save your family, freinds, mankind? Would your conviction lack power then? ------------------------------------------------------------ >My "conviction" would have no more or less power than it did before. ------------------------------------------------------------ I respectfully disagree. My conviction would be stronger if I knew I could save someone I love. >If we believe that nothing is impossible with God, then even a >body ressurected, be it a miracle, or not is believable. ------------------------------------------------------------ It's believable anyway. ------------------------------------------------------------ I believe we are saying the same thing.

What does this have to do with anything? None of this makes any sense. In the immortal words of OASIS... "Look inside the eye of your mind, and dont you know you might find, a better place to play"

I might also add that if our purpose was only to look after the earth, I think we are going to fail in that miserably! So, maybe the purpose of our design had more to do with something else, perhaps with the heart? I mean, what good are humans anyway????? Thats a joke! "We didn't start the fire"

You see , Darwin himself saw in the wonder of life a need for a ghost in the system , the powers breathed by the CREATOR. After reading God- The failed hypothesis , I walked away still strongly assured that we are certainly the Universe come alive (Sagan) and created by a loving "God" In this book , they wrote that " a better engineer" would have created a far more superior human being. The ears would be bigger , the knee caps would face forward , our torso sloped forward and neck longer. WTF? Try skydiving like that ! Very interesting view. I must be honest, I hadnt thought of that before. Biblically, it says that when the perfect comes, the imperfect dissapears. There is an explosion of imaginative views in the New Testament about this very subject. It excites our hope and inspires our imagination to the wonderful things ahead. Jesus called this place Paradise, a destination for us, but a spot that leaves no lacking in the imagination for us. I think in all of our imperfetions collectively we become perfect and enjoy things about each other, with an appreciative heart and not one full of envy or jealousy. Personally, it gives me peace and content to appreciate what others have that I do not, but that is not always an easy road. I dont have the greatest voice, but I try to appreciate those who do. I dont have the greatest view, I dont have the greatest hearing...Somewhow it seems that in our so-called imperfections we actually can seek the heart that is perfect. So we are not perfect it seems in our design for this planet, but in our design for the heart, it all seems to blend nicely. Contrary to popular belief, Jesus was not a handsome man, "He had nothing in his apperance that we should desire him" Beowulf, it seems your right, I do make alot of this up as I go!!!! "We didn't start the fire"

Think about it Beowulf. Just think, what do you think people will say about you when you are gone? What do you really want to leave behind? That is your spirit. "We didn't start the fire"

>Feel fortunate that I had witnessed it. I wouldn't need other people to believe me. (It would be nice if they did, but not necessary.) What if what you witnessed might save your family, freinds, mankind? Would your conviction lack power then? >I'd suspect he hadn't really been dead. Me too. But the point really is whether or not you think it is possible, not probable. And that is why Jesus always asked those he healed just before he healed them "do you believe I can do this?" If we believe that nothing is impossible with God, then even a body ressurected, be it a miracle, or not is believable. Add a strong conviction from someone who has seen it and there is something almost undeniable to the heart. Humans are not dead yet, we can still believe, some believe on what is seen, others on what is possible, and some refuse to believe. This goes beyond just Jesus, this is all about the power of what it means to be a believer in anything. Salvation is through faith, faith brings us hope and love. This is just a true statement in general life, add it to the conviction of what Jesus died for and... "We didn't start the fire"

Only those who saw the resurrection wrote that they saw the ressurection. The power was in their conviction. They were perscuted, beaten, inprisoned, and they continued to speak until most of them were ultimately martyrd. The spirit they recieved testified for them, at least thats what they said. That same spirit, not thier testimony alone, the spirit they recived is still testifying to the truth to this day. "Are you trying to say that no one else wrote about Jesus's resurection because they were afraid to tell the story" You much think you are fearless. Really. There are many people in the world who are afraid to testify to things they know will kill them, they do it becuase they are strong in thier conviction. For instance, a woman who is raped doesnt want it to happen to someone else, it is usually the strength of the heart that makes someone magnificent. I myself am not magnificent, but I respect with deep compassion those who find the strenght to testify, and I would never claim to have that strength within. Truth is, that no one knows how they will act, we like to think we are the hero, as that is societys influence, but we truly dont know. Im not for a single second going to say I know what is was like for MLK in the moments leading up to his death, I believe he was afraid, maybe not necessarily for his own life, but becasue he, like most, want to be there for thier familys, yet his conviction of hope for blacks and whites to live together in harmony as equals drove him on. "We didn't start the fire"

----------------------------------- I appreciate your response. Are you defending a polygamous marriage, or are you truly tying to understand? I only ask becasue everything that I gave you was correct, but it seems you found it out of context and are trying to make it say what you want it to. Im not being disrespectful, just making sure that you hear the truth, so if you ever talked to anyone else you would have an expressed opinion based on the truth. As I said the old testament was for polygamy, and marriage has nothing to do with the spirit, whether 2 or 12 wives, in fact, Jesus said it was better not to marry. NIV quote... "The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry." Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." You are right, it seemed that since there was a stipulation it shows that polygamy was still accepted, but not for those who were in charge of teaching the spirit, doesnt that say something to you? Jesus' comment on divorce was not necessarily on divorce as much as it was on adultery. NIV quote... Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." Jesus knew the heart of man, he knew that many were divorcing just to marry another, that is adultery. But to divorce was not spoken against as much as adultery was. The heart doesnt lie and the motives, thoughts and attitudes he knows (HEB4:12) Read 1 Corin 7. Then write back. But understand that I have not said that it is wrong to have many wives, if you do, may Gods blessing rest upon you, but it should not be taught amongst any followers of Jesus that Polygamy is the way to righteousness, and as I said, everything in the New Testament goes against it. The spirit loves content, content says if you cant be happy with none, then you cant be happy with many. Do you agree with this? "We didn't start the fire"

QuoteQuoteQuote-- What do you mean by "purpose"? --What do you mean by "expression"? Its a good question, but I am afraid I cant explain it any clearer (i dont mean that sarcastically), but Ill try. If I design something, say a song, it is designed by more than just what is in me, I pull from inspiration, stories of others gone before me, yes also personal experiences ect..., I call it searching the soul. Have you ever tried to sit down and write something so special, so defining, so powerful whilst trying to keep the motivation for you letter still the focus? Like a love letter. There are alot of people who dont go down into that part of themselves, maybe fear, maybe they just dont know how...But nevertheless, the song is born and in reality, a song is still invisible, designed, and it expresses that of its writer. A song has great influence in peoples lives, if it is good, it will touch them in places they really really like, beyond physically of course, deeper. The song had a purpose, it was an expression of someones heart. It just seems to me that design has purpose, even if it is just expression. I never said that all purpsose was good, but I do believe that all purpose serves good, as painful as it is sometimes. Anyone who has gone through chemical warfare training has seen pictures, or maybe experienced what some of the worst viruses can do, isnt it just a little curious to know that scientists and biologists have been the vehicle to their creations? Marg, this is definietly not a slam against you, please understand that. "We didn't start the fire"

How about Simon Greenleaf's definition? Why can't you guys just say, "I don't accept what you point to as evidence--- even the eyewitness testimony of the gospel writers-- because I have a philosphical bias against the existence of a supernatural being"? Why??? Becuase what you point out as being eyewitness testimony does not in any way shape or form qualify as eyewitness testimony. You don't have any evidence. If you were to take a book into court and try to submit it as eyewitness testimony the judge would dismiss the book and ask you where your eyewitness is. An eyewitness is a person not a book. You can't question a book and get an answer. How would you feel if you witnessed something truly miraculous, but no one would even listen? What would you do? Here you are basically baptized in awe, but no one will have a thing to do with you. Out of the deep conviction of what you saw, your hearts desire was to dedicate your entire life, leave your family, live as a homeless man, endure horrible and countless persucutions, read, study, explore every method of speech and writing so that what you saw would at least be recorded and heard by someone even until martyrdom. When we witness something miraculous our heart desires to share it, do you think that is the truth? Just a question to what you would do if you saw someone who was clearly dead, say four days, and he came back to life? How would you react? Most people will not testify that they saw somethig they did not especially if they knew they would be persucuted, inprisoned, beaten, and killed. Would you testify against a mob boss to a crime you didnt even see? "We didn't start the fire"

>How does a living cell indicate design? VR/Marg Im not an educated man. I deeply respect all those who follow their desire in them, but isnt it true that eveything created has a purpose, even if its just expression? I really am not aware of anything that does not have purpose, especially a cell. And again, Bill talked about life conforming to the enviornment, I thought that was a brilliant statement myself. We evolve as the earth evolves, to me this just shows the wisdom of life which seems to be perfectly self sustaining. Are we to assume, (this is a serious question) that life will be completely destroyed when the earth is gone? Is that sciences stance? Because it seems to me that if life has the wisdom to evolve, doesnt that mean that life has wisdom? And what scientist can believe that wisdom does not have purpose, that statement would contradict almost every scientist I have met. "We didn't start the fire"

>Right. And Christians have no innate morality. They do whatever the Bible says because they don't want to be punished in a fire-filled cavern; if a priest told them to kill someone they would as long as they thought they would get their heavenly reward. Do you really believe this? Fear is only a vehicle to lead us to trust. The one who trusts is the one who loves. In this world both trust and love need faith, if a preist told me to kill someone, I would call him a false prophet, one that goes against the very spirit I will die for. I would expose him as a hypocrite and a man not of truth. I would warn him that he is very close to hell himself and I would pray that Gods justice be revealed in him. I would hope that others, especially non believers would see that is wrong. We do not follow the letter, we follow the spirit of Gods Love. Our desire is to share love, not to destroy, or confuse everyone. Jesus said that there will be MANY false prophets to decieve even those who believe. This is fundamental Christianity. You should be able whether your a christian or not to hear the truth and to discern from what is right and what is wrong. We all have designed into us a spirit of justice. "We didn't start the fire"

You are a very peace loving person, I like to believe that I am as well, but I hope you are listening to my heart and not my head. I have said that there are those destined to walk their own path, and that has a purpose. Paths lead and they are also led by the guide of thier next destination right? While I belive in Heaven and Hell, There really is nothing in the bible to describe them as places. The words used are Fire and Paradise, so truthfully, how can I say that they exist as places? Truthfully, I cant. But, I can say that they exist as destinations. So with this I say that my guide is Jesus. Why? God, as it he is revealed in the Old testament is just, slow to anger, abounding in love. This combinations showed us how he dealt with man all throughout the old testament. If they were truthful to him, he was fair and just, but still God. There was only the hope that he would relent and bring us the salvation he always spoke about. Then the salvation came, the spirit of Grace and supplication. Jesus gave us a spirit, not just words, but the heart of those words. Where the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law went wrong is they took the bible and learned from its writings, not the heart behind the writings. You are right, God said kill and they killed, but they were not truthful. They would punish someone for working on the sabbath, but they themselves would do the same thing....ect.... The point is that they were not truthful. Anyone who is truthful knows he is guilty of sin. that is why Jesus said "if any of you is without sin, cast the first stone", he knew we were all with sin and he was the only acceptable sin offering, so Jesus dying for the sin of mankind, is not the same as someone else dying to establish their religion. Please show me anyone in the history of the world who died for thier God so that they might be a sin offering for all those who believe in that God. Of course I know there are those who died for thier religions, but did any of them die in the self sacraficing manner so as to bring the love of something greater to us? Its just a question. Becasue I am only aware of Jesus doing that. Jesus' very message was for the gentiles, the pagans, and the sinners, it was for everyone, so I cant believe that he would be against any other religion. He himself came to "testify to the truth" not to force people to believe it, but so that those who heard it and belived it might be saved. I am not irrational, I live amongst the Muslims and I have great respect for them and thier culture, but just as they believe my guide is wrong, I believe theirs is wrong, but together we do co-exist peacefully. Some are more radical than others, but still, for the most part, they accept me and I accept them. It is this way with everyone I meet, in any faith or religion. I am not a judge, I am a testifier to the truth. The truth is a spot in your heart that says this is right and this is wrong. It is a sword of justice on the earth and in the heart. How can I believe it is truthful for me to expect others who have grown up in places like India, Iraq, or Asia to just abandon what they believe to be the truth? Of course I cant, but Jesus says that no one can come to me unless the Father enables him, so, its in Gods hands. Even though I believe your right about the bible contradicting itself, the spirit behind the bible does not. And it goes on to say that God "harvests where he has not sown, and gathers where he has not scattered seed" and again it says "God is the savior of all men, but especially of those who believe". So it seems to me that even in our new testament, the spirit has the souls of everyone in his hand and he is the judge, not us. I have met MANY other spiritual people much much more spiritual than myself, they are full of a love and compassion I can only pray for, I believe it is biblical to believe that God is their guide as well. But still, there is a truth somewhere, I believe whole heartedly that it is Jesus. If I am coming off as arrogant, I apologize, but God is good, whatever our greatest concept of that is the only way we ourselves can percieve him, be it a Scholor or not, personally, I see more of God outside of Theology and inside the hearts and souls of those living without him, or those living with him in extrememly humble circumstances. I see God in your humbleness and love of peace, and in your spirit of justice. I would be arrogant as well if I said that I knew God better! What makes us so awsome is that all of us, eveyone in the entire world, all see the world through our own eyes, hearts, through our own perception, no ones view is right or wrong, we all see the way we see, no ones is better, just different, it is in these individual, unique and creative perceptions that God reveals himself, to us all and trhough us all. But just because we all see diferently, doesnt mean what we are seeing has changed, there still is a truth. Its like looking at an American Flag, we both see the same flag, but because of our unique design, our perception of that flag is different, not necessarily what it stands for, but, just the way we see it, in the heart and through the eyes. I belive this uniqueness of perception all different and sacred in our own individual way has something to do with the definition of the Soul. This lines up with what you said "a different aspect of the same whole" I agree with you whole heartedly about the religious sects nonsense, whole heartedly I agree. In fact it is the church that drove me away becasue of its unseen hypocrisy (not all churches, but most) If someone looks for the spirit in our churches today, I would hope they at least read a gospel before they go in there! But thats just me. The spirit connects with the heart, it goes through the mind, but it touches the heart. There are those who only look with the mind, and there alot of them. I hope this clarified a little more that I do understand that others have found a different path, but just as their path cant denounce its guide, I cant mine. I think we are pretty much saying the same thing, with a few minor differences.

Yes, would you please supply the references for the above. Thanks. Would there also be a passage for polygamy being "against the spirit?" The spirit called us to leave everything to find it. You can interperet for yourself what that means, but in my walk, it meant that in my heart I had to see everything here as an illusion in a way, I had to accept that everything I love, everything I have, everything I want even, was already gone. For me at least, this meant absolute freedom. Seeing everything I have as a blessing fills the heart with gratitude, and gratitude is in the flow of the spirit...it just feels good to be thankful doesnt it? When someone finds the spirit, they learn to be happy and content with little to nothing (by no means am I there yet freind) What I have found is that the more we say we dont need, the more we begin to actually recieve. So you receive everything you have as gifts, therefore naturally putting God first, which is what Jesus was saying. (Matt 6:25-34) It all has to do with worry, Jesus said, "Do not worry about tomorrow, tomorrow will take care of itself, each day has enough trouble of its own" So, you see the spirit is freeing us from all the troubles and worrys of the world, not by taking us out of the world, but by taking our hearts out of the world. The number of wives you have is a worldly tradition, it doesnt matter to the spirit, therefore it is not in the flow. Love, Hope, Faith, Joy, Compassion, Mercy, Grace, Content, Peace...these are in the flow. Many people see these words and they lack power becasue of our lack of faith (Jesus wept over our lack of faith), but indeed, it is undeniable that they all feel good to us. Love is the greatest, but love is only recieved by us when we believe and trust. We never knew truly how much God loved us until Jesus died on the cross to show us. It is that love that is the spirit, that is the depth we are all longing for, It is God saying I know you and I want you still....this much. That is the flow. Jesus said if you love anything more than that (me), then youre not worthy of me. He wasnt saying dont love your family and freinds, quite the opposite, he was saying I have the greatest love...the love of the Father, find this, keep this first, and the love you have for everyone else will stem from that. This vine of love gives life to all those who believe and it is spreading across the earth. If it touches us, we find life, if it does not, we simply rely on what we have in this world, and everything in this world is vanishing and the deciever is trying to keep us from seeing the truth. Jesus says "the two will become one flesh" He says 2 will become 1. Matt 19:5 and Mrk 10:8 Paul says that the Elders and Deacons (leaders who teach the spirit by example) are to have but one wife 1Tim3:2; 1Tim3:12; Eph 5:33 And again Jesus says that "those who can accept is should accept it" (not getting married) Matt 19:12 It seems to me, that there is much more in the new testament that is for monogamy than polygamy. But definitely it is completely a false statement to say that polygamy leads to holiness if they are followers of Jesus Christ. There is no scripture that says Polygamy is agains the spirit, but the spirit clearly testifies that it is. Now I am curious as to what you think, after reading the scriptures ect...what does your heart tell you? Hope this helps. "We didn't start the fire"

I should have used the word annoyed....thats the one I was looking for, again, sorry. Ive been in these athiest threads for the past week, were having alot of fun in there!! And Im sorry for calling you sister....I hope your question got answered, looks like you generated what you were looking for. take care. "We didn't start the fire"

No. We're here to beat each other over the head with plastic, waffle ball bats. Im sorry, thats just too funny!!!!!!! "We didn't start the fire"

This is interesting. This is very much like a conversation amongst believers. Forgive me Bill, you sound like a believer? Or at least you are a spiritual man? So it almost sounds like we are getting into a form of apologetics, and you will need to find deep peace within you so that you dont discredit everything I have said, by discrediting one thing, find a balance in me, I have compassion, I am not judgemental, and I do not know everything, in fact it is because I claim to know absolutely nothing that was the first step to knowing anything at all. I am not a pride seeker, or on an ego trip. This is my heart, so forgive me it you disagree with it, believe it or not, it is done out of care...but... In Christ, I believe everything he said. I found what I was looking for in him, so you see, I cant nor would I deny his truth. Many believe that enlightenment can be found outside of Jesus, and you would be right, but I am not only looking for enlightenment through wisdom, but power through the heart of that wisdom. See, in Christ I believe that there is eternity in Heaven or Hell and that the only way to Heaven is through the truth and grace of Jesus, because he said so. I dont want to believe that, but I have to because of how much I have been given through Jesus...this is hard. I want to believe that everyone will find heaven, but again, I cant. So while I belive that no ones purpose is wrong, I cant say that no ones religion is wrong can I? In good faith, can I, believing Jesus to be the only way, believe that bhudda, or muhammed, or ghandi, or any other spiritual teacher is also the way? Please forgive me, but you do see why I cant believe that other religions are right? Because only Jesus died for my sins, only Jesus took the cross. This is a thread on atheists, not apologetics I know, but I wanted to you to be able to hopefully understand why I cant say that there is any other way besides Jesus. If you want to talk about this some more I understand completely. Please understand that I am not a biggot, I am a man who cannot turn away from the truth I found in Jesus, if that makes me a biggot, then I am truly sorry, but I will still dedicate my life to being and sharing the love I found in him. "We didn't start the fire"

>So do many atheists. There is nothing at all wrong with the path you have chosen - just realize that not everyone chooses the same path, and the fact that they walk a different path does not make them wrong, just different. I dont undertand how an atheists testimony would be a testimony to the power of faith. Its just that most atheist are looking for proof and I believe that proof is in the testimony of others just like them. Im sorry, maybe I am not understanding your comment properly. I hope it doesnt seem as if I am judging anyone, that is not my intent, I dont think. I thought I was saying the exact thing you are, that all paths have a purpose, of course I am not going to say mine is more important if I believe that right? My comment about you all trying to disprove God was very careless. My point was that those who live by faith are not trying to prove or disprove God, but only share with others who he is to them. If that point didnt come out, then indeed I was very careless. "We didn't start the fire"

----------------------------------------------------- Please forgive me, I was careless with that comment. I dont know what I was thinking, again very sorry for that. "We didn't start the fire"

Um...thanks for your input, I guess, but you didn't address the question I asked. Can we keep this thread on topic? I'm not LDS, I'm just trying to understand someone else's perspective, so I'm looking for input from people who are LDS. In the meantime, you might enjoy these threads about Christianity: I am sorry, I just thought you should also have a perspective from someone who follows Jesus, as it is Jesus that the LDS church has their foundation on. I have had many people come up to me and ask similar questions about LDS. They have many traditions that confuse people who are trying to find power in the spirit, they lay burdens on the conscience that are not only unecessary, they are not based on the Gospel, in fact, some of them go against the Gospel. What I said to you, I really said to all, again I am so sorry if I offended you or made you angry. "We didn't start the fire"

Just curious, as far as I know, the Bible does not outlaw polygamy. And looking at the old testament, there were several men who had more than one wife. Do you have a passage that says that polygamy is not allowed? Your right, the bible does not outlaw polygamy, especially in the old testament. But her question led me to believe that she was trying to find the path to godliness, which has nothing to with the number of wives you have. See, this was the problem with Israel when Jesus came. The Jews at that time were very traditionalized. They felt that because they were doing all things that the law said, that they were holy, and many religions still believe this to this day. Oppression is very powerful. I am in the middle east right now and you see opression all over islam. You can only see the eyes of women, the men are over there women, some feel it necessary to constantly belittle them, or inferiorize them. Again, it is very powerful, because opression works on fear, shame, guilt, ect...Basically you force someone to do something becasue it is Godly. Now the argument is that some of these women want to live this way, if that is the case great, but what Jesus said is that it doesnt bring the kingdom of heaven to your heart. He showed us that "doing" certain things was not the way to the spirit, but that truth and grace was. So, the new testament enjoyed "freedoms" (that they spoke of regularlary) because the truth said that we are all evil, even those who appear to be the most righteous, putting the truth in our hearts and exposing the hypocrites who were opressing others for their own gain and using these traditions to empower thier control over them. One of Jesus' most powerful testimonys was that there is only one who is good, and he is in heaven.... I could write forever on this, but the truth is that the spirit of grace nullified our traditions. Meaning you dont believe just because you do certain things...... Sorry about the length, but there is more to your question than you think. Polygamy goes against the spirit. Not to say that you cant be spiritual and have many wives, but Jesus showed if you cant be happy with none, then you cant be happy with one or more. If you are married and you love your spouse, it is a blessing, but it is not always easy. Paul said that "I wish all of you were like me (single)" because he goes on to say that those who are married will go through difficult times and I want to save you from that"..... But let me be very clear, Jesus said "If you can accept not being married, you should" If anyone tells you marriage is against the spirit they are wrong. Polygamy is allowed but it goes against the spirit. Do you need me to give you the references? "We didn't start the fire"

When I read this I picture an old person trying to relate to children ... Totally rad! PS: Polygamy sounds more like hell than heaven to me. That is too funny!! Sorry, I just thought rad would sound cool there, I hadnt used that word in a while!! Im 29 yrs old, and I absolutley love your last comment!!!!!!!!!!!! "We didn't start the fire"

No you didn't. You stated that you thought evil was an actual thing, you provided no evidence that it was. Sorry about the caps thing. But again. Deception is not abstract and it is how evil operates. If you dont understand that, then your thinking is not set on listening to truth, but is fashioned completely against me. If you consider the balance for a moment of good and evil then you would understand that something is balancing it. I believe it is the spirit of wisdom itself, God. The same wisdom that science has proven over and over again to be smarter than us. Gravity, a purpose, oxygen, a purpose, carbon dioxide, a purpose, the perfectly self sustaining balance of nature, a purpose, the ocean, a purpose, the rotation of the earth, a purpose, polar ice caps, a purpose, natural disasters, a purpose, fire, rain, even tragedy. I mean the evidence of wisdom is all around us, yet mans pride wants to believe they have the true wisdom, when all they do, and all they will ever do is prove what has already had a purpose. Mankind has a knowledge of good and evil, yes? That means that the balance is within us, yes? And we have the will to choose what side of the balance to be on, yes? So wisdom, which clearly gave purpose to everything (except maybe the mosquito) also gave purpose to us. If we look at the earth as a place to sustain the balance of good and evil in the universes, even in eternity, a place where life lets these two forces breed, then within us we have been given a small scale of what wisdom does. If wisdom balances good and evil collectively in a dimension of time and space that is only known to us and seen by us, then clearly we see that we are made in wisdoms image. Those who choose evil have a purpose, and also that those who choose good have a purpose. What I was saying before your "what" reply is that when something is evil finds the power of good, it inspires a feeling of goodness that illumintes lives and inspires with its testimony. Without going deeper on you, think Scrooge, from the Christmas carol, think redeemed criminal ect... You cannot deny that the glory in the power of good is revealed when evil becomes good. Now you can say the same is true for good becoming evil, and now deception is revealed, good cannot become evil, because good is greater, not because of anything but the balance says so. If the balance within you believes that evil is greater, then in that spirit you will follow, and in that spirit you will stay. The majority of humans want to believe that they are good, and that is fantastic, it means they are truthful, but, the balance says that can only be so if you see your evil and walk away from it, revealing the glory of good through the power of love. Otherwise you live in a lie and the power is a deception that you cannot see. You all are tying to disprove God, we are trying to show you who he is. We are not trying to convince ourselves he is real, we have faith, hope, and love for that, we are only trying to show you who he is and that Jesus is the only reason we even know. I am redeemed my freinds, redeemed, I was like many of you, with questions, with almost no faith, (I say almost because I always kept the possiblity open). I was not afraid to fear and I let fear work in me and it led me to trust. Many of the redeemed have very powerful testimonies if you would simply believe in even the possiblity, or at least read a gospel, one that you can understand, I mean, I read the NIV book of John and it floored me. Changed my life in ways I never thought possible. I feel I must at least share that with you. "We didn't start the fire"

You people are awsome! I just love skydivers! Passion, personality, delightfulness! All pretty much what I would consider to be good, exciting, and fun people. No one is being judged, were really not even challenging, we're simply blending our personalities and our beliefs into one little community that the majority of the world may never understand. I havent been in skydiving long, but I have been blessed enough to jump in Austrailia, Switzerland, and several dzs in the us, and the people I meet skydiving are the absolute greatest. I know the detriment of the ego, but still, my comment still stands about this community being the greatest. "We didn't start the fire"

Anyone who lives by the truth has considered the possibilty that God never existed. If they dont admit that they may not be speaking the truth from their hearts. I know for me at least it was the darkest moments of my life that empowered my blame against God to question his very existance. Many will never find faith, some claim to have strong faith, its not a competition, its just the truth. It is those who say that have very very little faith that have the strongest, becasue they are the ones who live by the truth, and even though they belive their faith to be very very small, it is genuine. Only a faith that is genuine will grow, and it only grows in truth. God works in truth, and so anyone who comes to him must be 100% truthful with him. Expressing our doubt to him is being honest, asking for a sign is being human, not finding one is actually a gift. Because God is not found without faith. Faith is hard to cultivate when something is seen. There are many people in the bible who saw the miracles of Jesus and still did not believe. there are many people in the world today who have been witnesses to miracles and still choose coincidence over God. God cannot be seen outside the heart, and no one can show him to you. Now people might think that is not fair, or extremely "convenient", but God reveals himself through a spirit of forgiveness. Those who acknowledge the truth within them, that they are actually guilty of sin, will find the forgiveness in Christ and therefore, in truth, will grow in grace. this grace is power and it is the "proof" you guys are looking for. But again, I already said all this.... "We didn't start the fire"