StreetScooby

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And yet more people voted for the Democratic "message" than the Republican "message."

So the Democrats found a bunch more dead voters in California. The Constitution, including the Electoral College, is working.

Time left until Obama leaves office

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Just heard on the radio, donations to the Clinton Foundation have dropped 37%. I wonder what sort of message that says about their supporters? No play, no pay now.

Just wait until all those Middle Eastern countries ask for a refund. The Clintons better be thankful for all those secret service agents that protect their house in Chappaqua, NY.

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You are completely off-grid?

No, you're not allowed to be where I live.

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And while solar can take 10 years to pay off in NY,

It's 25 years.

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The problem is that we are now creating more CO2 than the environment can handle - which is why concentrations are rising.

Yes, and at current rates it will take about 100 years for the CO2 concentration to go from 0.0004 to 0.0008. In the meantime, the Earth's climate is going to continue doing what it has done for millions of years.

We can all agree that putting 40GT+ of CO2 and equivalents into the atmosphere is not a good idea. The question is what can we do meaningfully to reduce that, especially in a context where the US is already reducing it's emissions, but the rest of the planet is trying to move itself forward from living in mud huts.

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Actions that reduce CO2 emissions will reduce CO2 concentrations compared to the "do nothing" case - and that will, in turn, reduce warming.

Actions that meaningfully reduce CO2 concentrations can reduce the small amount of warming due to CO2. We can agree to that. Nothing being advocated by western governments will meaningfully reduce CO2 concentrations.

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Overall there are over 100,000 solar homes in NY,

That's not a whole lot of homes in a state of 20 million people.

We talked to 3 different companies, none of which inspired any confidence in me what so ever. Connecting to the power lines is a big deal, and I'm not allowed to do it myself and plug in. Likewise, you can't get a permit unless you're connected to the power lines.

I'm reluctant to even take this post seriously, but in the interest of educating you, I will.

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Water - stays in atmosphere 9 days.

And then what? We have no water vapor in the atmosphere? Is that what you meant to communicate?

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Methane - stays in atmosphere 200 years.

You need to improve your research skills. Methane stays in the atmosphere for about a decade.

Now, on to CO2...

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CO2 - stays in atmosphere 20,000 years.

Over 50% of the CO2 in the atmosphere is taken up by sinks every year, a significant fraction of which is trees and plants.

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150ppm == ice age.
275 ppm == our current climate.
In the last 50 years we pushed CO2 from 275 ppm to 400 ppm.

You should look at these numbers in terms of mass fraction. Your talking about 0.0004 (which equals 400ppm). In historical terms, we've only just been able to measure something that small.

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This is irrelevant. CO2 is a potent greenhouse gas and we pushed the concentrations to levels not seen in millions of year, and over the next 200 years could push it to a level never seen by this planet in it's entire life time.

No, it's not irrelevant. CO2 concentrations have been much higher over the Earth's history, and the Earth hasn't melted yet.

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And how long will it take to get back to the levels that reflect the climate we have now? 10,000 to 50,000 years.

Another truly ridiculous statement. Are you making these up?

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This is wrong. Please site a source.

No, it's not wrong. You should cite a source. Your research skills are lacking here, IMO. You can do better, and I encourage you to do so if nothing else for your own enlightenment.

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But, the climate change deniers...

Anyone who has spent time with this topic will tell you that government actions being advocated now will have zero impact on the trends in place.

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Pure political ideology should never go before facts established by science.

Exactly.

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So get solar and declare your independence from government-run monopolies.

I know you have the skill to have done your own. You can't do that in New York state. You can't connect to the service unless it's a lease arrangement.

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My idea of the ideal result would be to have safe, reasonable alternative energy..

It's called nuclear energy.

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And the republicans won because they pander to the ignorant and fearful

what say you?

I think you are wrong, arrogant, and full of shit. You could not be more wrong. Just look at the county level map of the Presidential election, which is overwhelmingly Republican.

You can't see that you are wrong, arrogant and full of shit. You won't see it, and you'll never see that in yourself. You are simply not capable. It's known as scotoma. It is especially pronounced in people with psychiatric issues. You should look it up, TK. End of story, last comment I will ever make to one of your political posts.

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What does this say about the message the Democratic party is sending.

For the vast majority of the country, the Democratic message is one they want nothing to do with. Look at the county level map of the Presidential election. It is overwhelmingly Republican.

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In the end, the Obama admin has been a disaster for state Democrats.

Yet they continue to double down on their current path, so much so they are looking to nominate Minnesota Rep. Keith Ellison as DNC chair, a rabid liberal. Liberal philosophy is bankrupt. Let's hope this drives the Democratic party off the cliff.

Between the changing Republican party, and hopefully the now defunct Democratic party, we need a whole new party to drive America forward as a sovereign nation.

Your facts are wrong.

He was booed as soon as he walked in the place, and several times afterwards. Completely uncivilized behavior, and wrong.

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That is just one possible option. Here's another:

https://www.google.com/...sXcmwUMoehUq7Z4TIDjA

An interesting 2008 Scientific America article, billvon, that is completely wrong in the short summary I was allowed to read (...decided not to buy it at the $8 offering price).

My wife and I looked into getting solar here in New York state. While it's "free", the cash flow really goes to the company leasing it to you. If that company goes out of business, it becomes a cluster fuck as to who and how has the rights to all those solar panels on your roof. In short, the home owner doesn't have any rights. Also, if the grid goes down, your home setup won't work. So, it's not like you'd be living off the grid. We decided, why bother?

I'm not opposed to having home owners set their home up for solar. Makes sense, if the economics work in favor of the home owner, and it still works if the grid goes down.

My experience in researching this just proved yet again the global warming push has become a scam. The government wants you to rely upon them, actually they demand that you rely on them. No thanks. I'll take care of myself, and my family, as it should be.

This brings to mind Amy Schumer's tweet on election night about "Hillary Clinton is trying to take care of all you kicking and screaming babies...". A significant portion of the country doesn't want the government to take care of them. Time for all the needy people to read the Constitution, and get off their ass and get a job.

A final comment here - my sister in Louisiana was hit very hard by the recent floods there. No one in Baton Rouge waited for the government to come in and take care of them. As a matter of fact, the government is actively impeding rebuilding homes by now demanding FEMA permits to rebuild. Unbelievable. The folks in New Jersey that got hit by Tropical Storm Sandy several years ago are still waiting for the government to take care of them. Massive difference in philosophy.

The points of discussion for this topic should have long ago been well established. Let me summarize my understanding of this topic:

1) What is the dominant green house gas in the atmosphere?
Water Vapor

2) How much warming is due to water vapor green house warming?
About 60 degF. Our species would not be on this planet if it were not for green house warming.

3) What is the current weight fraction of CO2 in the atmosphere?
0.0004

4) At the present emission rate of 40GT/year of CO2 and equivalents into the atmosphere, how long will that take to double to 0.0008?
About 100 years.

5) The science on CO2 warming is pretty well established. After the doubling from 0.0004 to 0.0008, how much of a temperature increase will be due to CO2?
About 1 degF.

6) "Alarmists" are claiming that positive feedbacks from this increase in CO2 will drive us to an additional 3 degC. Is this true?
Lots of very good scientists are looking into this, such as Judith Curry https://judithcurry.com/, who has proven herself to be a rational voice in this discussion. There are many different forces driving Earth's climate, most of which are not well understood at this point in time. Focused research continues around this topic. The Earth has proven itself to be a very stable system. It is most certainly not fragile.

6) The Paris agreement is looking to extract $1 trillion/year from the world's productive economy. How much of an impact will that have on the current trends?
Zero. All this will do is take more money out of our pockets, and give government more control over our lives. For no net gain.

We can all agree that pumping 40GT of CO2 and equivalents into the atmosphere isn't a good idea. Nothing being advocated by Western governments is going to change that trend. The only thing that can change it is nuclear energy. Only the adults in the room are considering that option, at this time. Thank god there are adults discussing this option. Going massively nuclear will give us many decades to sort out real energy solutions, such as fusion. There are no other rational options available to our societies at this time that will meet our energy needs. I am still waiting for a liberal climatologist to write "Living In Trees For Dummies". I will most certainly buy that book, and read it, just to hear what they have to say.

One last thought here... The largest biomass on the planet are ants, by far, IIRC. California has recently passed a bill requiring dairy farmers to capture Cow farts (actually, most of the CO2 discharge comes out of their mouths). That's how ridiculous this has become. Do ants fart, too? What happens then?

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I read that several were started by arsonists, what kind of a sick fuck does something like that?

It's been well established that Soros is funding a lot of delinquent people to cause trouble post-Trump election. Maybe him? Just a thought.

Read a very interesting article a while back, for which I do not have a link, that described the amount of processing required to have "meaningful" temperature measurements. For example, a lot of early 20th century temperature measurements came from ocean going vessels that measured intake water temperature. Lots of fudging required. Most of the temperature measurements have a std deviation of +/- 1 degF. Even satellite measurements require constant calibration because they don't fly over the exact same place of the Earth at the same time. The measurements being touted now are basically within the noise range of said instruments.

That's what the Constitution is all about. States rights. Sounds like an interesting concept.

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They can. As soon as society is interested in hearing it.

Some successful education reform will go a long way towards that.

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What level of paranoia do you need to have to believe this?

It's not paranoia. It's real, and it's happening now.

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No doubt. The Earth's temperature is the result of a balance between an unknown number of factors. The true effect of the current trends are also largely unknown. What is known is that it is unwise to fool with mother nature.

The physics of CO2 warming are well established, and there is nothing to argue there. Right now, the weight fraction of CO2 in the atmosphere is 0.0004. Over the next 100 years, with our current CO2 (and equivalents) emissions of 40GT+/year, that number is expected to double to 0.0008, which will increase the Earth's temperature by about 1 degF (on the low side of IPCC estimates). Read that again - 1 degF. Nothing catastrophic will come out of that.

The argument is all about feedbacks. Will more cloud coverage increase or decrease the Earth's temperature? And many other effects that are just now being understood. Will these feedbacks be positive or negative? Is the Earth's climate fragile or robust? The "alarmists" claim everything will be a positive feedback, and we'll end up with 5 degC of warming, the Earth is fragile, and that such change will be catastrophic to the planet. That's not looking likely if you read real climate scientists discussions (see Judith Curry at https://judithcurry.com/, who is a rational voice in this discussion).

Pretty much every rational climate scientist says that nothing being proposed by governments is going to make any impact what so ever on this trend. The Paris Agreement is looking to extract $1 Trillion dollars per year out of the productive economy to chase this "boogie man", for no change what so ever.

We can all agree that pumping 40GT+ of CO2 and equivalents per year into the atmosphere isn't a good idea. It is something we can do better. The question is how? Nuclear energy is the only option on the table that can meet our energy needs in the near term. We should be balls out developing that, and giving ourselves time to improve relevant technologies (e.g. fusion).

The liberal ideologues are looking at this as an opportunity to increase government control over our lives (e.g., eliminate capitalism), and they are clearly communicating that now. Likewise, those ideologues are advocating the elimination of all cash in western democracies, as they need more power to "fix" the economic mess they've put us in. They are out of control, and posed to do serious damage to our way of life, possibly irreparable damage at that.

Only fools will allow that to happen.

Svante Arrhenius was the first to figure out CO2's greenhouse warming effect, in 1896.

Greenhouse effect

His calculations were a bit off, but he had the concept.

IIRC, water vapor's greenhouse effect is about 60 degF. Our species wouldn't be on this planet without greenhouse warming.

For those interested in the topic

The Warming Papers: The Scientific Foundation for the Climate Change Forecast

I bought this a while back. It has Svante Arrhenius's original paper. It actually contains nothing but original papers, and it's a good reference. Really well done, IMO.

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Want to make a conservative mad? Tell them lies.
Want to make a progressive mad? Show them the truth.

+1

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I am so excited about this debate. Finally, we'll get to hear each candidate:

1 - outline their own policy hopes and intentions so each viewer can just compare their answers without any jabs or digs
2 - of course they won't strawman the other person and argue against false claims, rather they'll stick to their own platform
3 - there won't be any personal insults
4 - I'm sure Hillary won't even mention Donald.....and vice versa
5 - and the moderators,,, giving policy questions without bias or attempts to titillate the audience with leading or emotional twists and turns. AND the lack of bias for sure....

and the crowds inside and outside the building will quietly listen in a thoughtful manner and be so respectful of others with sincere alternate opinions and philosophies



can't wait... SmileSmile

Sounds like you've been ingesting some pretty magical stuff. Can I have some, please?

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because it is soooooo simple and straightforward.

I take it you haven't read it. You should. It's not rocket science.

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he's saying that the concentration of wealth in the hands of the 10% is a factor in the scale of the poverty of the 13%. And the 13% are doing so much killing (in some part) because they are poor.

The ~2% of black males that are doing the killing has nothing to do with that 10% of rich people. Your "philosophy" is bankrupt, and you can't even see that.