perse

I don't think "wrapping" the brake lines and trying to find if you can stall the canopy is a good hint! Actually it's a very stupid one. -Inexperienced pilot + relatively small stiletto + stalling the canopy with hands tied to toggles.....? :-( -Same setup....now trying how to land with wrapped steering lines...the other wrap slipping free when flaring....? There might be someone reading your post and adding a little bit of own imagination and the situation is something like described above. To the original poster who started this thread: Take your rig to a local rigger and make them do the job for you. Safe and easy. dot.

Try flying through a 2000 feet thick cloud with a highly loaded elliptical.... ...once you are inside with no visual reference and start turning, you have now idea what's the level of the horizon, so you also have no idea when the canopys is flying straight and with that 2.4 wl your canopy doesn't stop turning by just letting the toggles up.. So the only position you can be sure of is the full spiral right or left...You just can't hold the canopy flying somewhere in the middle, and always end up spiralling...a couple of thousand feet, and you will feel dizzy... Never gonna fly through a thick cloud with an open canopy again.

Conditions change also when you do it visually.... Why would it be better to start the dive (visual reference) from ABOUT 600ft than from exactly (altimeter like neptune, optima..) 600 ft even though the conditions make your canopy dive a little bit differently. Think if the conditions are such that the canopy will dive some 20ft more and at the same time you estimate the altitude some 40ft too low with your eyes........ Yes..with good luck you might estimate the altitude so that you initiate your turn 20ft higher Why not use an audible (optima etc.) to fly the pattern and to start the dive + use neptune to verify the altitude and checking the speed of decent when flying the pattern+ verify the altitude visually when initiating the dive after the audible signal. So that's 3 times check for the altitude, from which 2 are accurate and the last one is your own visual reference...Which you will be using for the rest of your swoop to check the altitude..

That's really stupid! Why "tie your hands" and try to make a situation where you might end up cutting away? If you want to try to stall your canopy and it doesn't work just by pulling the brakes all the way down, do the "shortening" of the steering lines some other way than making the steering lines go around your hand. Once again, please be careful what kind of advice you give here...

well... http://www.x-portal.biz/celebs_gallery.php?celeb=Roberta%20Mancino&prima=9&ultima=18

Here's a link to a movie trailer.. Quite nice.. http://www.2imagine.net/blogger2004/risk.html

i think it's real...... there are many other pics of roberta mancino in the internet. Skydiving related...naked..In some of them there's OLAV marked as a photographer.

Actually you have to think it that way that you have four points of attachment since you usually have your rear risers pulled a little bit apart or down when you´re leaning forward. or toggles. How do they do this "Ghostrider" landing?? Have you seen anyone doing that leaning forward??

...What's the physical reason all the CP professionals lean forward in their harness when flying level at he end of their swoop? How does it make the canopy fly better? Why is it better than just staying in the middle of the harness? Or does it just look cool

"Missy opened up in a severe line twist spin under her Velocity 90. She told me she immediately was thrown on her back which she knew meant the centrifugal force would not allow her to kick out (Skydive Chicago exclusive training!)" Why is it actually impossible to kick out twists when on your back...? Someone?

Well...thats not what I had in mind. Sorry billvon that I accused you of calculating wrong.. But to the quote above: I didn't think that the freeflyers also drifted 1 mile!, but 3/4 mile. Agree with you. I already admitted my first mistake and know I have to admit a second one too. Yep I made the calculations too...and I was wrong, AGAIN..aargh! I was mistakenly thinking this over relative to the plane. and if you make the assumption that I made (the jumpers, freeflyers & bellys and the plane are only moving relative to each other in a mass of air.) +should also have thought that the plane is moving relative to the ground with the wind + its own airspeed) The length of the freefall doesn't affect the effect of the wind to the position of the jumper at the time of deployment relative to the plane (because the plane is also moving with the wind, and the position relative to the plane is just freefall time * planes airspeed) Length of freefall sure does affect the position of the jumper! sorry.

...sorry. Just noticed that the speed (80knots) is measured with GPS. YOU´RE RIGHT TOO. (I just have never had chance to jump from a plane with GPS available to jumpers..., airspeed is what you usually know...)

(Moderator's note - please read the post below this one BEFORE replying!) Why do you think that the windspeed (or direction of the plane) would affect the horizontal distance between groups???!! The plane is flying in airmass that is moving to some direction with a certain speed. the jumpers exiting the plane will be "flying" in the same moving airmass, and the horinzontal distance to the other jumpers is only affected by the planes airspeed. What is wrong in your calculation is that you forget that all the jumpers are flying in the same moving(relatively to the ground=wind) air than the plane. There will be a little difference whether the plane is flying into the wind or for to the opposite direction, but that will only be if some jumpers have longer freefalls than the others and there's a different wind in different layers on the way down. This difference will anyhow be so small that it really makes no difference. Please don't "teach" before you find out how things really are...

STOP this......silly conversation.. and blaming Airtec This handful of highly experienced CP pilots is pushing the limits... Usually it takes some casualties when someone tries something new (harder...faster...). And when you're pushing the limits shouldn't you very carefully find out all the possible details? HOW IS IT POSSIBLE that a swooper like Adrian used cypres even though for example moledsky had already fired his cypres during a hook landing... Adrian was a "professional" swooper and didn't know?....or didn't care (laissez-faire?)....(Probably he just though the cypres might ruin his swoop but couldn't make a mess that would kill him?) Poor Adrian, he made a little mistake and had a very bad luck... WHY IN THE HELL do you blame Airtec? If doing something such extreme as swooping like experienced CP pilots you need to know exactly what you are doing! Well...smokers can have a lawsuit against cigarette companies...Because they didn't know that it does for sure damage your health. Are you americans really that stupid? Whats next? Lets sue some harness manufacturer because the flaps didn't stay closed in a speed skydive of 400mph...(And the skydiver died because of an accidental reserve deployment...) It wasn't said in the manual that one shoudn't have speed greater than 300 mph! It is not forbidden to think when skydiving! If you are not sure, then find out! (If you're not sure that the cypres won't fire accidentally during your swoop, find out! And if the manual says you can't fire the cypres under canopy, think that you're one of the best canopy pilots in the world and doing something that wasn't done half a year ago...pushing the limits) -perse

Think it this way. We all know that if you do a very short/steep recovery arc you kill the speed. If you do a very long recovery arc the drag kills more speed than the change in direction. Of course there are many other things but these are the ones that have the biggest influence in the speed. (Or the motion energy? I've no idea if thats the right word?) Yes it's somewhere in the middle, or maybe a little on the longer side. At least it's safer. We will get some kind of 2. degree equation from this one, but so far I've no idea how the change in an articles direction affects the energy the article has. (i.e. in this case an article on a round path=recovery arc where the radius of the path gets shorter or longer). Aren't there any physicians? Are you all doctors?

Well thank You!! Don't you people know that people skydive also in countries where english isn't native language. Sorry for all the mistakes but you all seem stupid enough not to answer my question, though you clearly understood what I meant. I've done enough swooping to use weights and all the other things to add a few meters to my swoop, but I still liked to know if anyone has ever calculated some kind of physical formulas or models for a swooper? BTW. Why are most of posts in this forum just joking or stupid arguing about some "can I make a 270 from 300ft with a katana loaded 1.9?".....Everyone who can answer that knows that if you ask, you shouldn't even consider flying such canopy. What I mean is that there are so few threads that actually are about swooping techniques and about some useful information about "modified equipment" used for swooping etc. Let's see how many jokes there will be before I get some answer to the question I already asked a few posts ago

What is the best recovery arc? (YES OF COURSE IT DEPENDS ON THE CANOPY YOU ARE FLYING!, BUT GENERALLY) I see too many jumpers swooping who still believe that the steeper the recovery arc the longer the swoop. Are there any pilots or anyone else who knows that much physics that can tell me how much a steep change in a round path of an article (the swooper) affects/kills the speed. Or when is the angle too level ("you're too far from the corner") and drag kills more speed than the change of direction? Has anyone ever calculated these. BG? Learning the correct terminology will go a long way towards convincing those around you that you are worthy of learning technique. Language first, technique second - unless you're working off hand signals. Please - It's Arc, not Arch. I've corrected it for you. t

... I started swooping after some 80 jumps. First with some 20 of 90 degree dives. Then I started practicing 180s. I had sabre150 with 1.3 WL and needed to start my dive at some 350 ft. 270s had to be started at some 450-500 ft. Most of the first 50 turns were a way too high cause its not easy to keep sabre with 1.3 WL diving with such a speed you have after a 270. But anyway, I always had my landing pattern planned before jump, and I always left a place to go if I hadn't enough height to finish the turn, didn't do the hook turn if the wind was too bad, took a separate line at 3300ft before others to be sure there's nobody else at the same time etc....Well I'm lucky I didn't pound. It's been much closer since then...When you know you are a novice you are careful. When you get experience you start thinking you don't need to be that careful anymore. I got my "lucky I'm here" experience on well over 1000th jump and learned that I'm still a novice. Experience is not an excuse of not being careful, and not being experinced doesn't always mean being stupid. If you crash because you didn't have somewhere to go when only getting 200 degrees its 90% stupidity and 10% lack of experience. You are right that every year there are many accidents like that. Why do people forget to think when then jump?...and BEFORE jump? What I mean here is that right kind of attitude means as much as experience of hundreds of jumps.. I love to see students training for their -15th jump. Some might train throwing the pilot chute for hours... Some just take 5 minutes to try... BTW. It's funny that some "not so pro but with velo anyway" (Doens't mean you) swoopers tell me that they have to start their dive higher when the temperature changes etc and they don't even check their altitude from the altimeter before starting the dive. Eye can't match even an old barigo... 2nd BTW... How can you tell if a student is ready to do his first skydive? Make some very hot and spicy food at the DZ and take the toilet paper out from the toilet. When the student 15 minutes later runs to the toilet and shouts another 15 minutes later that could someone bring some toilet paper, you can tell he won't became a good skydiver. A good skydiver always checks all the important things beforehand, even though there's not much time....

proactive pilots... it's good that you brought that up.... My example is a little bit overstated...but about being proactive. Some people naturally are very worried about where the others will be flying when they are planning their landing pattern, and still they are eager to swoop and ready to call it off if there's something wrong....some with thousands of jumps only see the swoop pond and the only "proactive work they do is telling "stay out of my way" to all the other jumpers. Some people are careful already as a child. Some learn to be careful when they get hurt. Some people never learn... Most important is to tell these eager 100 jump swoopers how to practice safely. When I started swooping ( before having 100 jumps) nobody wanted to tell me how to practice. I'm not so talented so maybe I'm lucky to still be here. I was careful, but I also was stubborn so I had to try everything myself. Imagine how frustrating and scary it is to start trying hook turns when all the information you have is from some BR:s book... Why couldn't anyone say anything else than "You shouldn't even think of swooping yet!"... Were all the proSwoopers at our DZ with thousands of jumps afraid that someone with 400 jumps is going to swoop longer ? Well...none of these things is absolute.... eXperience is important. What is eXperience...You get it by practicing?.... Which one is more experienced swooper and is more likely to hurt himself or the others when doing the next hook turn: Someone with 800 jumps and Stiletto 1.5 WL and no hook landings or someone with 200 jumps of which last 100 are hook turns with Sabre2 WL 1.3....? yank yank Well...none of these things is absolute.... eXperience is important. Have a nice swooping summer! -Peter

does this " As Aggressive as they come" option mean being stupid. You can be as aggressive as your personal physics allows you to be and still skip swooping when there's no room for a decent landing pattern...

...as all the others here I'm also tired of this "I have 100 jumps, can I start swooping" -conversation... Pulling the front risers when having less than 100 jumps may be ok for someone who really thinks what he is doing, is ready to practice and is talented under the canopy and YES, THERE ARE JUMPERS WHO HAVE 3000 JUMPS and I'd never like to see them try swooping... I'm not saying that it doesn't sound stupid when some student with 20 jumps tells me he knows swooping is going to be his discipline... but there might be some very talented 16 year old jumper with C-license and 100 jumps and who is working his/her ass off to learn how to swoop (safely and loong...) (And already can make a 270 more safe than most of the 1000 jump heroes...) Remember...people are different So let's not forbid every jumper with less than 400 jumps to do a 180...