mariavon

Wrong! You would love flying with Lurch, and having discussions on the ground too. What about my idea Lurch? You know, I agree that a lot is to be said for actually flying, designing, and lot's of experience, however, I think it's best to keep an open mind to everybody, and I like this discussion. Quote Oh my hat ! i have never laughed so much at anything on this forum.. hot headed brazilian chick versus veteran sky-god ... great.. so maybe its time out now.. you two Lurch and Giselle go on a date and sort things out.. i will go for extra classes on how muscles work, and everyone else think over your designs carefully till we meet again.. mmmm? ah itz all good.. (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

*** How about this - ever eat a bird? Look at the size of a chicken breast as compared to the size of the thigh. Big difference, and chickens don't even fly anymore. Dave, Giselle is a zoologist specializing in birds, she does not need to eat a modified chicken to appreciate the significance of the large chest muscles in birds, but I am glad you brought this up. it is wrong to eat birds, and it is evil to rob them through cruel breeding programs of their natural ability to fly so that people can consume chunks of flesh that used to be active muscle, and it is also ignorant to believe that we cannot overcome the limits of our strength by using our brains to harness technology. You will remember from biology class that a muscle is comprised of cells that are flacid and elongated when passive, and when pumped with fluid (blood) they contract to provide the power of an active muscle. A company called Festo claimed years ago to have hundreds of designs for membranes that use air ( the fluid enabling flight) to mimic the action and subsequent power of muscle. Thus for human flight, the proximity of a suitable fluid, and the right "muscle" design, leads to the idea that the perhaps we can overcome our limits of strength in more ways than one. (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

Giselle this discussion should be had on a different forum, perhaps we can call it the wingthing forum, where we can discuss politely, exchange compliments, and it will be ok to be gay. Dont be too dissappointed by the reaction you get here, you must understand that the wingsuit (a name we must not take in vain ) is perfect as it is, and much loved for its 1- 2.5 glide ratio, the strain it puts on the arms , and of course the 2-3 minutes you can spend holding hands with other pilots while descending steeply to earth at great speed. And then the final exhilaration of deploying the beloved parachute, oh my! I for one will never understand these things fully.. The serious development of wings that will enable human flight to approach the ease and agility of bird flight is a daunting challenge, but it is impossible unless one has the dream and the vision. I share your optimism in our ability to glide and maintain level flight, soar, and finally land with wings modelled on those of birds, built with the highly advanced materials and technologies that are currently available to us. The most elegant and viable wings of this kind to date were designed by Leonardo da Vinci in 1400 something, and it really is rude to imply that such a genius was a fool for his faith. He must be turning more than ever in his grave at the contempt shown for the ambitions of subsequent adventurers by many in this forum, especially since these guys are widely known as birdmen. To successfully engineer and build a wing-thing for proper human flight, you need to first clearly identify the problems, so that the solutions can flow as they tend to do: 1) limited human strength: the extended wingspan cannot rely on strength at all to remain extended, because available strength and endurance will be needed to control and guide the wing, and perform the maneuvers required by the flight mode and prevailing wind conditions. instead, the wing must be supported spanwise by articulating spars with their main anchor( also articulated) at the center of the back. (spars not neccessarily from carbon fibre) Thus the arms are supported by the wing, and not the wing by the arms. Another support for the wing comes from an artificial wishbone at the chest, a bone in birds that has recently been identified to act as a spring, sprung to balance the upward forces exerted on the wing (which are stronger than the downward forces) This devise will stabilise the wing in its vertical motions, where some flexibility is needed, even if one does not envision actual flapping.. 2) need to land safely you cannot use a parachute safely as it is with extended wingspan- hence my diversion to develop the IGALS (Integrated Glide and Landing System) 3) practicality The wings will only have broad appeal if they can be used to jump as usual from planes and off cliffs etc. They must be totally collapsable and flexible at the extremities to avoid snagging, breakage and injury. Also the birds must flock together, so they really have to be compact in their pre-flight mode. The safe opening of the wings in a normal wingsuit is already challenging, so one must account for the impacts on a much larger wing. The wing of the future for unpowered human flight is in fact a prosthetic, and anyone following the developments in this field will appreciate the amazing possibilities to control limbs that do not belong to the biological system of the body. The human frame is closer to the frame of a bird or bat than any other creature, and we have the superior locomotive range. Above all, there is imbedded in our psyche the will to truly fly.. thus our mental faculties will not rest until this dream is thoroughly manifest. Giselle I will email you a drawing to keep you motivated.. (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

The difference between the Stealth and the GS1 is nominal, and Stealth was a response to " big wing " designs promoted by Tony suits . I recall the ridicule the GS1 was subjected to as being "a garage door " etc at the time of its release, so the "maturing"of wingsuits (since the GS1) have actually been only in the minds and attitudes of the fraternity. Besides for this uncomfortable fact, the real issue in the possibilty of landing a wingsuit is not vertical speed (thats what you have just illustrated ) but forward speed, right ?( oh, and orientation of the body ) So what viable solution has been offered in this regard ? Could one propose diving at 200kms/h just to pull up at the exact moment into " flare" that allows a "climb" within a few feet of the ground, then? a stall , from which you can drop a short distance to land on your feet ? What ? Landing without a parachute does not constitute progress in wingsuit design per se , but since the parachute hinders progress, perhaps this is not a totally frivolous venture, and progress in wingsuit design definately requires breaking moulds, and will happen in spite of comfort zones . (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

Well the first thing to realise is that the IGALS landing schematic is a GRAPHIC showing only the essential dynamic of my concept for landing a wingsuit, and reveals nothing of the design of the actual suit. I assure you it is nothing like a hanglider or a kite wing, but if ultimately the argument can be made that the IGALS is not wingsuit, sobeit, I look forward to a new generic name for what my patent describes as " a flying apparatus ". As the large volume of discussion on this topic proves, a "wingsuit " as it exists cannot be " landed " without serious injury or death, unless some miracle " landing substance" is pumped wide and deep at the landing site. Hence the need for a new design. Even if landing was not an issue, the wingsuit as it exists is equipment that is far from having reached its full potential- the angle glide is pathetic, the aerodynamics are utterly basic and arbitrary, and the fatigue factor is intolerable. So what in the name of human flight is wrong with a radically new approach to improve a "wingsuit". I would say that if you can slip into the thing, climb into a plane , jump out and fly , its gotta be a wingsuit ? Anyway, all my work started with a "wingsuit" , and I am also very attached to the purity and simplicity of the idea, its just that one has to move on a bit, and really , 20 years on, a new decade and all, maybe there could be some space made INSIDE " the box " ? (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

o-kay .... well good for you man ! (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427341.300-dangerous-dreams-who-needs-a-parachute.html?full=true That article talks about Maria von Egidy's IGALS (Integrated Glide and Landing System) design plans: "The most innovative part of the design, though, is that it allows the pilot to drop out of the wing just before landing and hang beneath it, rather like a hang-glider pilot does, making it easier to flare without losing control." Is it a wingsujit or a hang-glider if the pilot can drop out and hang beneath it before landing? .................. The IGALS is a wingsuit that can be used in all the same environments as now (off cliffs , out of planes ) but it is necessarily of greater wingspan than current models. Problems of fatigue, strength and control have been fully accounted for in the design. The objective in designing these wings is not to land without a parachute, but to fly better and longer- and the parachute does not mesh well with optimum wing design. It was a cause for huge frustration until by chance I realised that there was a simultaneous solution to body orientation on landing ( Robi has given us chilling visions of landing in a horizontal position ), and the problem of slowing the forward speed sufficiently to land safely. The graphic attatched makes clear that there would be a tremendous increase in drag resulting from the re-orientation of the body, and if the wing continued to fly above, there is every chance that touchdown would be successful and the pilot would walk away smiling. (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

absolutely gorgeous !!! (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

Thank you Yuri for that comprehensive reply. The significance I see is that there are options when designing for improved glide. You can opt for design that is biased toward very slow vertical speed, as for your scenario 1, sacrificing forward speed. This is consistent with the fact that wing area will have to be that much bigger, and we can therefore expect drag to be higher. Alternatively, you design to achieve speeds that you mentioned in Scenario 3, where you balance increase in lift and reduce drag to keep forward speed relatively high. I am contributing to an article for The New Scientist magazine on - you guessed it- landing a wingsuit without a parachute. It is essential to my concept that the glide of the wingsuit can be sustained at between 1:4-5 , and that there is a slight reduction in horizontal speed . My maths is terrible but you have confirmed that speeds in both directions can be reduced. Would you mind if i direct the author of the article to your PFM laboratory? (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

Yuri, if one flew at a glide ratio of 4.5:1 , what more or less would you guess the vertical speed to be, and what would the ground speed be, and distance covered ? i guess there are variables but in very average conditions? (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

The largest wingspan of a bird is not on the heaviest bird.. so there must be some significance there. Now what about flying insects .. many rely not on wingspan but on furious flapping. I don't see us buzzing around but it shows that there are options. It seems that wing loading is very important to performance in a passive glide, but the dynamics change when you add action to the wing? Is that stupid? (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

No no .. I don't say that man is not heavier than the heaviest flying bird, I say that only to the degree that this differs we must aim to compensate. That goes for weight , strength and shape. It's a just phlyosophy of mine. (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

Well I feel that for the purposes of developing human flight ,our kinship to powered flying vehicles is not much inspiration! (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

But Jarno don't you think its amazing how similar our fingernails are to the quill of the feather as well ? If I went down to the nail parlour and had webbed extentions added, i think I would look a lot like a bat! (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

If the creative and competitive energies involved are fueled by sufficient finance, we will see huge advances in a very short time. I predict that within a decade most of the major milestones will have been reached. (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

Wingsuits are stuck in a paradigm and huge shift is imminent. Every component and technology for actual flight by humans already exists, it is a simple matter of applying faith, will and skill to the problem. Birds have never needed to use their legendary brains to fly, but we do. Consider the following misapprehentions with respect to the possibility of human flight : 1) man is too heavy to fly: reduce a man in three dimensions to the size of your favorite heavy bird of prey, add the prey to the weight of the bird and compare the weight of mini-man and bird. How big is the difference really? Whatever answer you get will tell you where to concentrate your efforts to close the gap, and how to balance the options, being wingspan, aerofoil design and thrust . 2) man is anatomically misshapen for the purpose of flight: Superimpose the skeleton of a man over the skeleton of a bat and be amazed.. now work out what movements mechanics and engineering are needed to simulate the action of the flying skeleton. 3) humans lack the strength to generate thrust and control large wingspans: humans also lacked the strength to move massive boulders to Stonehenge, they opted to use the crudest of methods to leverage the strength available to them. We have innumerable technologies for augmenting our strength, and more than enough which do not require any outside power. The force of gravity and the minimum input from our muscles and tendons are enough to power the right engineering. The challenge is to tailor and adapt technologies in an elegant way, and to consider the process of safely introducing them to the current wingsuit environment. The wingsuits of the future will combine the very best of human accomplishments in science and art, and they will allow humans to actually fly, glide and land. They will be the most beautiful objects ever created in human history for sure. (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

Yuri from the cruel kindness of your heart you helped me a lot once by confirming a suspision I had about the "rig box" on the GS1 .. you called it a "canyon of drag" and I am happy to say that is sorted on the new wing. Since then I have had a keen ear for your insults ... (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

That's exactly right Jarno, the wingsuit business has not proved viable for us to date - Cate actually had to sell her house to put us back in the black after our investment in getting the GS1 to market. No regrets at all though, it's been wonderful to discover what I really really want to do.. design wings ! and be part of this totally exhiliarating renaisssance of the development of human flight, it's WONDERFUL ! We are completeing an order at the moment for 80 pairs of huge feathered angel wings for some commercial, and that's just one more sign for me- WINGS are IT

The GS1 is a nice flying suit when you get past the tail flappage and massive arm loading, which was about the same as when I did a rodeo jump with a 180 pound (81 kg) girl on my back tough at pull time Jeff the GS1 demo that you jumped so extensively in your research for your big wing models had a flaw in the tailwing, it was not crossvented, and I believe that this was the main cause for the flapping, inflation not being what it should. We have now cut the little holes in the cell walls so I hope that the flapping is cured. As for the arm loading, Jeff I have been so tempted to copy Birdman"s what-you-call-them tunnel things on the leading edge ? God they are brilliant and maybe I am ignorant but it seems to me that they would help a lot to lift the arms out of the strain? Too bad I didn't stoop just that once.. I thought that people would not take us seriously if we copied stuff so blatently.. (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

I would PREFER this thread to be re-named WHAT SUIT HAVE YOU FLOWN? less opinion and more fact is what wingsuit development needs .. start with a census, then move to opinion, via empirical data... of which I put limited faith so far in the few structured competitions dotting the wingsuit calender to date... (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

This poll may serve wingsuit manufacturers very well, and YOU the pilots in turn. We would all love to know how many different wingsuits in circulation have been flown by how many pilots, (given that only maybe 50% of you turn up for the poll ) Perhaps the poll can include a) number of respondents and b) multiples of suits flown and c) ... ok don't say which suit you love best ... that is too un-scientific. Please, this is a worthwhile poll... who do you all do it with ? (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

I am trying to visualise a drogue attatched to your leg straps.... mmmmm ... wouldn't that put you head down for landing? like maybe this would be a job for helmet designers to put wheels on the camera mount flat thing ... spectacular ..but a drogue is just too much like a parachute for me! (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

My god you guys are so obsessed with snow and foam and stuff ! how do you think it all up?! I think actually no-one really wants the comedy of these discussions to end... it's just all too hilarious! (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

yea Pierre come on down, can't show you everything but I can sure get your jaw to drop a bit.. I see you have moved to the big wing suit.. not too floaty I hope (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!

I have been in serious development of a wingsuit that lands without a parachute for over two years. My concept allows for a safe landing at the dropzone without landing gear, body armour or special surfaces. The wingsuit flight itself will be at glide in excess of 3:1, and the forward speed at touchdown will be no faster than the average fast approaches now seen with parachutes. I am currently designing with scale models and prototypes, using very basic testing with swings, and i will shortly be testing full scale prototypes on superswings rigged to cranes. The concept i am developing is entirely viable, but the engineering is complex and I sadly can not devote all my time to this pioneering venture. Rest assured however it can and will be done, sponsor or not. Test pilot we have thanks. Quote (pronounced G - jii is the force that makes you fly!) Jii-Wings - no strings!