peregrinerose

Yeesh, I only used the doctor thing to show that I have waaay too many years of science in my background. There's nothing sacred about any form of doctor degree, there are folks without Dr. before their name that know as much as I do, maybe more, about science. Anyway... this doc would like to see the endless spinning circular arguement degenerate into a discourse on bug pornography. Wouldn't that be more fun? Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

LOL!!! I think at this point it is a game of semantics. But I do think that if the standard of care changes, then the definition of life/humanness/whatever should not be etched in stone. There is no absolute moment when one becomes a life or a sentient being. Or if there is one, science doesn't know it yet. To hack apart 6 month old fetuses in late term abortions just because the kid didn't have the chance to be born prematurely and survive doesn't make sense, and I honestly wonder about the medical ethics of those who perform these procedures. I tend to lean against the concept of abortion just because I tend to play it safe, just because I don't know whether something is truly alive or not does not give me the right to extinguish it. I'm not sure that my ethical code needs to be forced on the rest of the world (ie outlawing abortion) since there's no scientific evidence either way though (yet). Since we're going in circles playing word games, how about we get back to the far more relavent topic... anyone see any bugs humping yet this week? If so, be sure to take pictures!! Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Honestly, I don't know. And that was the point of my post, science doesn't know, and a few posters on here were claiming to use scientific evidence where none exists either way. How one defines life, or humanness, or sentience is variable, and there's no scientific standard for that line. As science evolves, someday a 2 month old fetus may be born prematurely and survive, thus changing again the 'potential' vs 'real' human. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

You'll do better financially in retail if you work someplace that gives commission. With no experience I worked at a chain optical place selling glasses. Made about $7.50 per hour plus commission which typically doubled the hourly wage, sometimes more. Not bad for a part time job. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Why is it solely the fault of the teachers if the children do not meet state standards? Typically the poorer performing schools are in areas with a lot of problems outside of school and the focus on education and behavior are not already in place on the home front, which makes the job of teacher nearly impossible. You can not teach one who does not want to learn. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I'm not sure where your logical scientific perspective is coming from. I am a doctor, and my 'logical scientific perspective' is different than yours. A 6 month fetus can survive outside the uterus. To kill this fetus in any way, whether murder or abortion, is still killing a life that could live independently of its' mother. I don't know where the line between life and nonlife is drawn, and I know of very few doctors or scientists who claim that they can precisely name it with sound research backing up their claim. The science of fetal development just isn't to that point yet. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Thank you, Paj If I'm going to hijack a thread, may as well make it as weird a hijack as possible... Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I bet that there rodent would taste just like a chicken with a little bbq sauce and a side of whiskey. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Makes sense to me, I was stretching really hard to keep toggles from pulling, but there probably was some degree of tension there just from my arm posture. From a flare stance there really wasn't a flare at all. I guessed when to flare, just as I started to, radio guy said 'wait', I waited. My ass hit ground at the same time he told me to flare. It was my own fault for not going with my instincts since I could see how high I was but was behind a hill from the radio coach's line of sight. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

If I was a bug, your knee would be as good a place as any... Also, bugs of the "oversized" persuasion "need lovin' too!" *** Interesting mental picture. How do I explain this to my husband. 'Oh look, hon, there's that guy from DZ.com in insect for humping his bugbabe on my knee'. He'd probably run for the camera Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

If you were a bug you'd be having sex on my knee with a bugbabe twice your size??? Hmmm. I have lots of bugporn. I came home from work one day to find my husband on the back porch cheering on a pair of grasshoppers (like they needed the cheering), so of course we whipped out the camera. Have several sets of various insect pornography now. We're getting pretty good at it ... bugporn pics, I mean. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

At the DZ yesterday I had a pair of little bugs having sex on my knee. The male was 1/2 the size of the female. I was very disappointed that I didn't have my camera and macro lens with me to take bug porn shots. I wonder how many times a day bugs do it? Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Can I just ditto Nightingale's list? I'd have picked the same ones. Different order, but same movies. I love Princess Bride. My dog's name is Fezzik ;-) I love Indiana Jones too... the other dog is Indy. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I didn't say anything about the radio coach thing. Since I had no idea who was on radio, for all I knew the guy was standing nearby. I don't know how to bring that up tactfully, that I really don't want weird surprises like that while I'm so new at this and trying to spend my mental energy learning. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I'm going to bet that she's going to have some problems reaching the toggles on most student rigs due to the length of the risers. My overall point is, lets not try to witch hunt the AFF-I, just let the student know that she should bring her concerns first to her instructor, then to the S&TA or head instructor if she doesn't feel like her problems were addressed correctly. *** First rig I jumped was fine, both from chest strap and toggles stance. I don't want a witch hunt, thought my instructors were great. That is why the flare thing and rig thing were LESSONS LEARNED on my part NOT something I was really concerned about. My only concern was having no clue who my radio coach was which made me extremely uncomfortable since I got that little surprise at 4000 feetish off the ground and I had no idea at all what his coaching style would be or what to expect of it since no one bothered letting me know there was a change in plan. In a situation like skydiving where there are safety issues, trust in an instructor is important. How can any student trust an instructor that they never met??? My complaint isn't with the flare time either, that wasn't his fault, it was MINE! I was over a little hill from where he was, he was doing the best he could given his standpoint. This wasn't intended to be a post bashing my instructors at all, I'm very happy and comfortable at this DZ. The only thing I wasn't thrilled with was the change in radio person thing to someone I never met. The other things I thought were good lessons for me to learn, they were MY issues, NOT the instructors' Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Just for the record, this welt looks like a really big hickey on the side of my neck. Of course my husband wanted to know who gave it to me when I got home. I told him one of the coaches did (same coach my husband often worked with) But now I'm at work. And I'm a doctor. And I have patients looking at me verrrrrry strangely. And none of my staff believes that it is from skydiving. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

This did happen, they agreed the rig was far too big, given the marks on my neck even with stretching as far as I could, and noted it, as well as recommending a 210 for me (1st jump was a 230). My criticism is not with coaches at all on this one, it was handled appropriately. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I'm only going by above... chute WON'T open is a promise (as though he'd have something to do with it), 'hope your chute won't open' is not a threat. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I don't know why I didn't get there, there was very little wind. this was my second canopy ride, so I followed the coach's instructions as given over radio. Both jumps and all 4 jump coaches that I worked with have complimented my canopy control as well as the first radio coach, so that is not an issue. I still have no clue who the second radio coach is, which really bothers me. The problem with your recommendation of listening to flare time is that he told me to flare AFTER I had landed. On a 240 canopy at 150 lbs of me weight (what, 20 more with gear?), that's no big deal, but on a smaller rig that would not have been a good thing. Had I flared when my gut told me to a few secs before landing, it would have been a good landing. Again, that was my fault, not the coach's as I was out of his line of sight anyway. My 2 instructors agreed completely that I should have flared when my gut told me to instead of waiting, in fact, they were the ones that told me that. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

It wasn't the landing at all or the flare time that bothered me in the least. As I said in my post, that was my responsibility, the coach is a guide, a safety net. That was the lesson that I learned, that I am in control of my jump. Coaches can't do it all nor should they be expected to. What bothered me is the surprise of having someone I didn't know, never talked to, never saw, had no familiarity with in any way at any time being radio coach. There was absolutely no trust there, he gave me conflicting directions (turn right, no left, 90 degrees, errrr 180, etc, he talked almost constantly which was completely the opposite of my first jump AFF coach who only talked when necessary) Every coach has a different style, but I didn't even get to meet the guy first, so he didn't give me any information on what to expect. As a student, I want to at least be introduced to my coaches to feel somewhat comfortable with them, not have a holy surprise at 4000 feet. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Hell with HR, call the cops and file a complaint, as it is a threat on your life. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I agree completely. Went 4WD and there was this freaking 16 year old spoiled brat driving a brand new 30K Jeep with all the perks. He refused to get it muddy. Wimp. My first car was a $1200 tempo. It taught me how to change a tire and do basic mechanic work. I was 21. It survived my first and only car accident and had dirt cheap insurance even though I was on my own insurance policy. I can't understand buying a kid a new car, they should earn it themselves, it's one of those experience that teaches a lot of different things. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

I just did my second AFF yesterday (finally, mother nature cooperated). Learned a couple really good lessons, but have one big concern... First lesson... If I am remotely uncomfortable with something, stand up for myself or don't jump. The rig I jumped last time (230) was out. This DZ is pretty conservative with how they do things (and very rightfully so in the interests of safety), so instead of going down in size they gave me a 240. As they were helping me get ready, everything about the rig felt way to big, shoulder straps not snug, I could barely reach hackey (guess I should mention I'm only 5'3"), and I did voice that concern. My instructor reassured me that it was okay, that everything was tightened as far as it could go, and since he has a bajillion jumps to my 1 AFF and 1 tandem, I let it go. Well, when I did my practice pulls and real pull I had a hell of a time reaching, but did manage. As the chute opened, the chest strap flew up to my chin, since I was looking up to make sure I had a good canopy, it left a nice welt on my neck and I spent the entire canopy ride stretching as far as possible to avoid choking. I could only reach toggles with my fingertips, so took several seconds to wiggle those down too. It was not a good thing. I should have requested the same rig or equivalent one, and if not available return to jump another day instead of jumping something that I wasn't entirely sure of to begin with. Lesson number 2... I am in charge of my own skydive. Yes, that's beaten into your head from the very start, but it's one thing to hear it, quite another to put into practice. As I was entering landing pattern, I knew I was short of landing area and would be in a field behind a small rise and out of line of sight of radio coach. As my feet were just above the height of the rise, I would guess I was about 10 feet up based on the size of the rise and where I was in relation to it, I started to flare, but the radio coach said 'wait' just as I started to flare. I hesitated just long enough to let my ass hit the ground as he finally did say 'flare' at about the same time. Following my instincts would have given me a nice standup landing instead of a sliding landing on my butt. Not a big deal about the landing, but the fact that I didn't take charge of my own skydive when something didn't quite seem right is my fault. This time it didn't really matter, but it could have. Now to my concern... Initially a person that I knew, a woman, was going to be on radio, I was comfortable with that. But all of a sudden, as my canopy opened, it was a guy's voice. Someone I never met and didn't know anything about was talking me down. That made me extremely uncomfortable. To trust someone I've never seen, who never let me know he'd be on radio, never told me how he did things (like my radio coach on AFF1 did), bothered me a lot. He never stopped talking, which made me nervous, not really giving directions, just babbling a bit most of the time. And even after I landed I still never knew who this person was. In something like this, you need to trust the coaches, and when a coach is a faceless voice and a total surprise, how can you trust them? I although everything went fine, I felt awkward with that. Is this a valid concern that I should bring up, or am I too sensitive to this? I'm fine with letting it go, it wasn't a major thing, but if I should bring it up, how do I do so tactfully? Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Even infants aren't truly self aware, sentient, most likely. Their brains are learning basic function at that time, vision, motor skills, etc, not so much self awareness. Likely sentience develops with time. The question is, when is that time? Is it ok to kill a new born infant? How about that 6 months gestation infant, ok to abort, but also can survive? Where do you ethically draw the line? Until someone can prove what is or is not self aware, I choose to play it conservatively. I would rather err on the side of caution than make assumptions not supported (or disproved) by science. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

Can you believe it? I'm with Paj on this one!! I am very non-religous, but definitely believe that life begins before birth. Can I give you a date/time as to when it begins? Hell no, but I do believe it is at least 6 mos gestation, probably well before that. Based on science. See my post above. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda