pajarito

HAHAHA! I'm not defending billvon. Does he need defending? He's a big strong man with a brain to boot. But sometimes I just like to contribute. In that case, good to hear from you.

Of course he can. However, considering this is what you wrote... I rather think I'm defending myself. Point taken.

I think Bill can defend himself.

Dude... Refer to post # 696 for my explanation of why I think the Apostles were different. I don't think you guys are reading at least the page before. I feel like I'm having to repeat myself. Very frustrating.

I'm sorry to hear that but it tells me a lot. Jehovah's Witnesses in a Nutshell False Prophecies of the Jehovah's Witnesses Years ago, that probably would have turned me off to religion too.

Martyrdom as evidence of truth of the cause. I'm not talking about 21st Century suicide bombers here. I'm talking about 1st Century Christian martyrs who were eye-witnesses to the events in question and why we should take them seriously.

What are you talking about?

They walked, talked, and lived with Jesus. They saw for themselves the torture, crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. That is the evidence on which they based their beliefs. That is the reason they were willing to die the way they did because they would not deny what they saw or speak about it. That is the reason why some took it to the extreme by requesting to be crucified head down because they didn’t feel worthy to die the way their Lord had died.

There’s a big difference between the deaths of the Apostles and that of the countless of others we could mention who have given their lives for whatever cause they no doubt sincerely believed in. Eleven of the Apostles died martyrs deaths based on two things, the resurrection of Jesus Christ and their belief in him as the Son of God. What did they see and what would cause them to believe enough to endure the kind of death reserved for the worst criminals because it was so cruel and agonizing? If the resurrection did not occur, those who walked with Jesus certainly knew it. If they died how they did for a lie, then they knew it was a lie. That is hard to believe. One would have to be completely insane or deceived neither of which can be substantiated. You’d be hard pressed to find any number of people who would be willing to die for a lie if they knew it to be a lie. Therefore, it might be prudent for you to seriously consider their claims.

One must be convinced of the disease before he will appreciate and appropriate the cure.

So would I. However, there's a big difference between your perfect world scenario above and reality. Just look in the mirror (The Ten Commandments). The Greatest Gamble is to say "there is no hell." That is a tragedy and sad to hear. Sincerely.

And the hijackers of the planes that flew into the World Trade Centers truly believed in what they were doing as well. I don’t doubt their sincerity. However, on what credible evidence did they base their beliefs? How could you possibly know any of that? What did he have to back up his claims? What did he do in his life to back up his claims? Not even close. Jesus was without sin, fulfilled prophesy, performed witnessed miracles, and defeated death which was also witnessed by many.

You're standing in front of a Judge. You're guilty of murder and rape. You're about to be sentenced. Your last words to the Judge are "I know I'm guilty Judge but I try to live my life as pure as I can, on "my" morals." Do you think that's going to pay the price for your transgression of the Law? The "Nope. Sorry" refers to this. You're right. "I" can't convince you or any other. Only God can do that. If one is truly "born again of the spirit", he/she will not be "self-righteous" and will be very aware of their sinful nature. You're not "saved" or "born again" because you're a good person. You're saved because you realize that you're a very bad person who's been forgiven. Repentance and faith.

I didn't say that. What I was trying to get across was that they were all sincere and that there is no evidence for the claim that they were all just crazy or dishonest (speaking of the apostles). They did not die for a lie. They "all" saw what they saw, held each other accountable to the truth, and died horrible deaths for it (didn't just drink the purple koolaide, if you will).

Nope. Sorry. What? You're not going to die? You've also not lied, stolen, and blasphemed?

No. It is not God's will that you go to hell. That's the point.

The time of the end of the world is debatable (no one knows). However, you will die and face judgment for everything you've done. If you had a special earpiece that recorded every thought that has gone through your head in your lifetime, would you be willing to let the world listen to it? God knows your every thought and everything you've done. The world aside, you're Judgment Day is coming soon.

If you KNEW that the FSM was not true and that you just made it up, would you still hang on a cross for it in order to further your cause? You'd either have to be crazy (all of them?), insincere (no evidence for that), or sincere. These guys didn't just believe. They knew because they witnessed the fulfilled prophesy and miraculous events that occurred. 1. Peter – crucified 2. Andrew – crucified 3. Matthew – the sword 4. John – natural 5. James, son of Alphaeus – crucified 6. Philip – crucified 7. Simon – crucified 8. Thaddaeus – killed by arrows 9. James, brother of Jesus – stoned 10. Thomas – spear thrust 11. Bartholomew – crucified 12. James, son of Zebedee – the sword

That's because I no longer simply believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, I know it. It has become a reality in my life. Speculating on how I would react when faced with a false god would be make believe and a useless exercise. Then why do you keep asking atheists and other non-christians how they'll react when they meet jesus? That question is just as pointless. Have you ever told a lie, stolen, blasphemed, looked with lust at another woman (adultery of the heart), hated without cause (murderer at heart)? No false god of any other religion can save you from the penalty you must pay for your lawlessness. The Law convicts (that's its job) but it will not save you. When you meet Jesus, you will stand in righteous judgment for everything you have done.

I responded to the home of a 44 year old man yesterday. He was dead when we got there and apparently had been so for a while. His Mother was standing and crying hysterically at his bedside pleading with him to get up. Sparing you the details, he probably had a heart attack in his sleep. I'm 37 years old now. It really makes one reflect on how short life really is. You could die tomorrow. Then again, you may live for 50 more years. Who knows? The fact remains, however, that you will not escape death. The Bible says that if you've broken God's moral law (lied, stolen (value or time of occurrence is irrelevant), blasphemed (even in jest), committed adultery (even looked with lust at another woman), murdered (even hated someone without cause), etc.), you will be given justice and sent to God's place of punishment called Hell (you will be conscious and it will be eternal). What will you do when you have to stand in judgment for every thought and deed in this lifetime? The time is most assuredly near. Maybe or maybe not for the end of the world but it is for you (and me).

That's because I no longer simply believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, I know it. It has become a reality in my life. Speculating on how I would react when faced with a false god would be make believe and a useless exercise.

Why would you object to this? Selections were made, and it seems that some system involving random chancewould at least give some avenue for divine selection if you believe in that sort of thing. I mean if you believe in divine guidance and the canonical "Word" including the translation process then why on earth would you get hot and bothered about the specifics of the mechanism. Criteria for Biblical Canon 1. Apostolic authority 2. Age of text 3. Orthodoxy 4. Widespread acceptance

How are you going to react when you face Jesus?

What would be your reason for not believing "all" of them? Doesn't sound very reasonable or objective. Added: I thought Mockingbird was responding to you and that was your post. If not, I appologize. My mistake.

All of the New Testament except for 11 verses can be reconstructed from the writings of the Church Fathers. There are 19,368 citations of the four Gospels by the Church Fathers and that is but one line of evidence.