olemisscub

The same people who liked Bing also liked Cary a year later. That is incongruent. They are literally different people. Answer my question. Does KK5-1 get sent to Roy Rose if Farrell is aware that KK5-1 was picked in opposition to the initial sketch and not Bing? Farrel thought she was saying "I prefer this mugshot over Bing", THUS, that is why Cary began as a derivation of KK5-1. No other reason. This is not imagining causation. You've dug your heels in and are refusing to be wrong or have your mind changed. I'm quite certain I'm right on this. Comp B, as we know it, doesn't look the same without his mistake.

This isn't about whether Bing is ridiculous or not or if you think it is garbage. I'm talking about the investigative process and what was going through their minds in 1972. Show me the feedback against Bing that would have made them want to create a totally different sketch as opposed to just putting Bing in color and aging him up. Farrell CLEARLY indicates that they are doing this mainly because of Flo's insistence that the sketch was terrible. It's very clear causation. Absent that document you still think Farrell would be like "hey Exhibits Section, we need you to completely redo this sketch that all the stews like because Robert Gregory, a guy who admits to only seeing the hijacker twice, wants this guy to have fuller cheeks and look more ethnic." Hell no. Farrell did this because he THOUGHT one of his primary witnesses thought the sketch sucked. This isn't that complicated.

I don't believe Farrell would have attached KK5-1 to his memo if he thought it was about the initial sketch and not the Bing sketch. KK5-1 is clearly the basis for the reimagining of the sketch. All of the Comp B's are derived from KK5-1. If Farrell doesn't send KK5-1 to Rose, then we just get an older looking Bing. You're also overplaying how drastic the complaints were about Comp A. Nothing about their comments demanded such a dramatic shift (which is why, absent Farrell's apparent mistake, they would have been unlikely to completely overhaul it) Tina - "looks 100% like him" Flo - "like drawing very much" Alice - "fair likeness...could not pinpoint any characteristic about the sketch she didn't like." Bill - "Everything from nose up is good. Mouth is good." Williams - "Thought the artist conception was very good, over-all" Spreckel - "if face were widened one sixteenth of an inch...it would be an excellent likeness" The only real complaints were from Gregory and Labissoniere. If you're an agent, there is nothing at all in the criticisms of Comp A that would lead you to think that you'd need a new sketch to look like an entirely different human being. The only thing that would make you think that you'd need a complete overhaul would be if one of the stewardesses, the only one who interacted with him before him became the hijacker, was adamant that the sketch was terrible. This is why we have Cary IMO. I'm not saying Cary isn't good or whatever. I'm saying that we don't get Cary unless Farrell thought Flo was talking about Bing. They'd have no reason to make him a completely different person otherwise.

Here's my issue with it...As I explained last night, if I have an eyewitness making two statements that contradict each other, I'm going to err on the side of their statement that was made closer to the event. Absent some evidence to explain why they changed their statement, any solid investigator is going to assume that the statement made closer to the event is likely the more accurate version of the incident. I don't see why their opinions on the sketches should be treated differently. Yes, we have statements where they like Comp B, but most of those statements are almost a year or even over a year later. Their statements where they like Comp A were made within days of the hijacking. Tina said Comp A (with sunglasses) looked "100% like him", Alice said it was a fair likeness and couldn't offer any criticism, and Flo said she "liked the drawing very much". As I indicated, this isn't so much about hating on Comp B, but moreso about finding redeeming qualities with Comp A. I've made it very clear that I'm essentially a "Comp B" guy. However, clearly Comp A got something right otherwise they wouldn't have said such positive things about it. That's why I think a hybrid version of the two sketches is probably as close to accurate as you can get. When you look at guys like Donald Murphy, Allen Cooper, or Fred Catalano, they all look somewhat similar to my hybrid sketch. Additionally, my entire reason for even bringing this up is mostly academic. I doubt we have Cary if Farrell realized that she was talking about the initial sketch. I think we just have some sort of aged-up and modified Bing instead of the complete overhaul that took place. I find that to be interesting from a "case-history" standpoint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9T_MDj9lgY

Nothing new in latest Vault except that this would be cool to see

Indeed. I guess she forgot that she liked all of the sketches when they came out except for the initial sketch. She also says in that episode that she can still see his face vividly despite telling the FBI in 1976 that she had completely lost what he actually looked like in her mind.

I just realized something the other day. I don't think we have "Cary" if Farrell hadn't gotten some dates mixed up. In August 72 when they finally got fed up with all of the young suspects coming in due to Bing's youthful appearance, Farrell wanted to have a new color sketch made that reflected the hijacker's age and his skin tone. While in the process of developing this lead, he came across Flo's statement dated Dec 2, 71 where she dismisses the sketch and says KK5-1 closely resembled the hijacker. Due to the date, he assumed that she was talking about one of the Bing sketches (from 11-27 and 11-30). However, that Dec 2nd document is actually referring to her statements she made on 11-25 about the initial sketch. In reality, Flo apparently had no problem with Bing, saying that she "likes the drawing very much." So Farrell, assuming that Flo was talking about hating Bing, seemingly wanted a complete overhaul done using KK5-1 as a foundation. My guess is that had Farrell realized she was talking about the initial sketch, we probably don't have the Cary sketch. I think they'd have just gone the easier route and just put Bing in color and aged him up another 10-15 years from how he originally looked. The sketches are really a fascinating study into witness psychology. Bing and Cary are essentially two different human beings yet all of the witnesses liked both. None of them hated Bing and none of them hated Cary. Interesting.

Yes, of course. I asked the question just to get some clarity on something strange I'd heard while researching a 727 pilot. I came across someone's previous research where they had talked to two 727 pilots from the era and both said they had never once touched the mechanism for lowering the aft stairs of a 727 and would have had to look at the instructions panel to figure it out. That seemed preposterous to me, so I wanted to ask.

At CooperCon, I met a woman there who was working as an like a historic interpreter at the Museum of Flight. She had been a NWA flight attendant for forty years. She worked for NWO specifically during the 60's and 70's. She knew everyone involved and worked a good bit with both Alice and Tina. I asked her some Coopery questions and these were the answers. - How often did you load or unloaded passengers from the rear stairs of a 727? She said even when they came to an airport without a jetway they'd often just use the airstairs on a truck. - Would a pilot have known how to lower the rear stairs? She thought about it for a minute and said something like "well, all they'd need to do is read the panel instructions, but I don't think any of them would have ever done that before. That was something we always did if we ever lowered them at all." - If a passenger ordered a bourbon and a soda, did you mix the drink for them or did you give them a soda and an airplane bottle of bourbon? She said the stews would mix the drinks for the passengers. - At the time of Cooper, a mixed drink was $1 and a soda was .25 on the menu. Was a bourbon and soda $1 or $1.25. She said it was $1. - Did you take any tickets or anything when passengers boarded? She said during boarding they would look at the ticket as each passenger boarded. - If you were working in the rear cabin of a 727, where would you have placed your purse? She said there were these little compartments behind the rear row of seats that they could open up and store some gear in. I asked her this to figure out how where Flo's purse would have been when she retrieved it...just to see how awkward that interaction would have been. and finally the most interesting one to me... - Did you know Kenny Christiansen? She said she knew Kenny very well and everyone enjoyed working with him. She said that immediately after the hijacking they began to joke about Kenny due to the sketch. She said it was a bit of a running joke with NWO cabin and flight crew for a while that he was Cooper and so she was shocked when all the stuff about him first came out in 2008 or whenever it was. Said she was basically thinking: "They cannot be serious. This was just our NWO inside joke!" - I asked her if an employee like Kenny could have hijacked an NWO plane and gone unnoticed. She said it would beggar belief for that to have occurred without the employee being recognized. She said NWO was a small group back then and all the employees knew each other. She felt that at least one of the three stewardesses would have worked with him at some point by Nov 71. My takeaway from the conversation I had with her about Kenny is that I think her comments might explain the existence of that "Coopery photo" of Kenny. I bet it was just a gag photo he took to use for joking around with his friends at the airline.

The Catalano and Al Cooper photos are just random pics that I found of those men, but the Donald Murphy pic (far right) actually is the same photograph that they saw. The pic below is the Catalano photo they used for the photo spreads. I’ve FOIA’d for a high quality version of it and also FOIA’d for the photo that they used for Al Cooper. FBI approved those FOIA’s, so maybe I’ll get them in five years…haha

Well, the one on the left is obviously the Bing sketch and he used it as a template. Spreckel merely adjusted the width of the forehead one-sixteenth of an inch (according to the agent).

That was Tom being confused by what he was reading. Tracking the first day or two of the sketches is very complicated, so it's understandable he'd get that mixed up. That drawing that came from Vegas was done using Tina's description without her real-time assistance. There is a 302 that specifically states that it was drawn using Tina's description. Gregory did go through the Facial ID Catalog on Nov 25th though, so that might be the confusion. Roy Rose didn't get out to see the stews until Nov 26th. However, the FBI had already sent Rose the catalog selections from Gregory as well as from Flo and Alice and maybe a handful of others. So I'd be curious to know if he had already drawn a rough outline of the first Bing sketch using the ID kit numbers before he got to the stews and then made in person adjustments OR if Bing was completely created on the fly. This is one of the reasons I'd really like to get that Facial ID Catalog. I'd be interested to see if some of those early ID kit selections from the 25th made it into the Bing sketch. That would give us our answer to whether Bing was drawn on the fly.

The one about the looking Mexican on page 24 is Gregory. Page 25 is Labissoniere. 26 is again Gregory 27 is a repeat of the info from Page 25, so it's Labissoniere again. 28, the Nov 21 one is Gregory and Nov 22 is Labissoniere. 29 is either Bill or Spreckel, but likely Spreckel. 30 is Labissoniere. 31 is Labissoniere. 32 is Gregory It's important to remember that the majority of what you're seeing there are criticisms of the Bing sketch. Only pages 28-30 are criticisms of Comp B. The ID kit would be nice to have and what we were just discussing slipped through all of our fingers last week on Ebay. I was so pissed when I saw that someone had sold one of those that it gave me a migraine. Been looking diligently for that book for over a year. Interestingly, we do have this sketch on the right that was actually drawn by Spreckel. I've FOIA'd for a high res scan of it. I'll certainly post it whenever I receive it.

The head shape is consistent with essentially every witness description, with Alice's head shape selection, and also consistent with photos of Allen Cooper and Donald Murphy, two men we know that the stews picked out of photo lineups as looking like Cooper. Hell, all Nancy House could remember was that he had dark hair and a narrow face. Cooper 100% had a narrow face with a sharp chin.

Gregory isn’t wildly far off. He used the term russett to describe Cooper’s suit and Tina called it brown. So I tend to agree that his suit wasn’t black. The people who claimed that his suit was black were likely just visualizing his raincoat/topcoat, which was definitely black

Nov 25th

No. I wish. I even contacted the seller to ask if he had another or where he got it from. I was livid when I saw it AFTER it had sold. I've been religious with looking for one of those on ebay for a solid year now. I guess I got distracted with CooperCon and forgot to check this past month.

Headshape that Robert Gregory picked out

It's a real shame this interview with Tina never took place. Although maybe it took place over the phone or something and it's going to be in one of the upcoming internal files released by the vault. Regardless, I'd love to see the answers to these questions.

Correct, plus we know the provenance of the yellow map. It definitely came from 71. The FBI received it the next day.

But again, it wasn't a challenge. You didn't make a definitive statement about it. You just said that you thought it wasn't actually yellow paper. Your statement made me curious. I asked Tom. I supplied his answer. It wasn't a challenge. It was merely an addition to the conversation, same as what you are saying made you post the SAGE document.

It wasn't a debate!!! You said you thought it was a certain color but that this was due to lamination. I was curious about it myself. I sought clarification. I supplied what Tom said. It wasn't meant at ALL to challenge you or be like "durrr Flyjack is wrong na-na-na!" This is my whole point about the way you view this case. You take everything that is at all contrary to what YOU think or what YOU say as some sort of personal attack or personal affront. It's bizarre. We all greatly respect your research on the case. I can't speak for others but personally I just wish you were more of a team player and weren't so sensitive.

You said I "challenged you". How did I challenge you?

yep. We've all seen this. We've been battling with Eric's ridiculous notion that it wasn't a SAGE map for months now on the FB group and have used this as evidence.