Doug_Davis

Cool. Thanks for all the info all!

IANAL but waiver or not if reports are true that the AAD was not functional then I dont think a waiver will matter in light of:

Ive been reading up on tracking and wing suits. Tracking and angle flying is something Im very interested in. As is wingsuit flying, once I get the experience and numbers I need. I hadnt considered buying a tracking suit previously, as I would assume that as you move into steeper angle flying you would want more of a FF suit instead. But then I saw this: "For skydivers and BASE jumpers, tracking is a crucial step towards wingsuit flying. Whether you plan to move up to a wingsuit, or just hone your tracking skills, the SUMO is the answer." Is getting a tracking suit really that crucial? Or is it just marketing by the company to sell more gear?

Burke was discussing flocking dives. ie tracking dives with multiple jumpers in almost every case. Other than a handful of solo jumpers who couldnt figure out how to spot or talk to the DZSO about winds aloft. Tinley and I were discussing me jumping and learning solo. Before ever doing a dive with someone else. Thats the key difference. Doesnt matter though. Got hold of an angle guy out of NY, Cipollone, who gave me the name of some good coaches down in Florida to hook up with and start working with. So the thread served its purpose.

Gotcha. Well for me I would feel really unsafe in such a group dive, which is why I think Bryan Burke is putting his foot down at his DZ. If no one has a good grasp as to how to carve, or how to keep from carving (ie running into their fellow jumpers), then they shouldnt be jumping in a flock. Put a bunch of newbies together in a flock who dont know how to turn or control turns seems like a recipe for disaster to me. I am curious, you arent the first to mention this: "When I say learn to track like a boss, I'm talking about the ability to perform very well on simple, relatively flat, group tracking dives." For me that was part of my A license curriculum. Isnt it for everyone? I had to bust across the sky, while not looking like a humping porpoise (potato chipping as some people call it), on heading and in control. If its part of the A's I assumed every instructor was holding their students to the same standards?

Wait. What? How would I be safe to track with others in a group if I dont even know how to carve which is used to turn and control your heading/orientation? Carving i.e. dipping your shoulders to turn in one direction or another is how you turn in a track yes? Maybe Im not understanding what it is you are saying but that doesnt come across as particularly safe.

I already did. Its more for people who have a skill level already to start jumping flocks of 4 or more. So Im looking for more of a starting program like Flight 1 does with canopy piloting or Elsinore does with their wingsuit school. Like I said if worse comes to worse I can just start jumping solo tracking dives, learn to carve, and then just continue to increase the downward angle while remaining stable...all while gaining experience. But figured I'd ask around to see if anyone ran a course on this first.

Bryan's main concern seemed to be firstly people who had X number of jumps (500 for example) yet who had never done a flock track dive in their life jumping into a 10 or 15 way group jump because somehow having 500 jumps on their belly translates to knowing fuck all about tracing, and/or secondly people who dont take the time to learn to spot, talk to the DZSO or pilot about wind's aloft and the direction of flight and then try and do a long tracking/tracing jump. Quite frankly Im not that stupid to do either. I teach whitewater kayaking professionally and understanding mitigating risk. I know what I dont know, which is why Im looking for professional, paid, experienced, organized instruction in the discipline. Just like I do with canopy piloting. I know Im a newbie, but Im also smart enough to know what I dont know. Which is again why Im looking for an instructor. I have had other people who said, as you have, that I should learn free flying head down first, before learning angle flying. But I have others who have said, no learn to track really well, then track with one other person, then learn to track steeper, and then next thing you know you are angle flying. I like the second route, tracking into angle. Now if I could just find someone running a course like they do for freeflying, belly RW or canopy piloting.

So I should have already gotten a pretty good base in freeflying with head down before doing angle? Seems counter-intuitive as I thought tracking, even if its steeper tracking, is easier than straight head down flying. Is that not true? Not to be dismissive but isnt it just upping the complexity on a swoop and dock which you learn for your A's? Just adding a longer steeper swoop? The article Shropshire linked makes it seem fairly easy to get started in solo, as I assumed it would be, and doesnt make mention of needing to be a head down flier first. But was hoping maybe someone was running a formal class as they do for canopy piloting. Edited to add: The article you linked to from Bryan Burke at Skydive AZ was fairly scary. Someone doing a ten way tracing dive on their first EVER tracing dive? And the video he attached was in scarier, one guy couldnt maintain control in belly to earth position. This is why Im looking for formalized instruction because quite frankly I dont want to end up on a load with idiots like that. This reinforces my thoughts on getting started. I wonder if the author runs any classes though. Guess I could email him. Edited to add: Maybe the author of that article is right. Start solo and just experimenting is the best way, no class needed. A solo jump definitely lessons the possibility of their being a collision with someone who isnt maintaining situational awareness. Anyone else know of any?

So after researching some of the different disciplines as a newbie and what I want to concentrate on in addition to just getting more proficient as a belly flier and as a canopy pilot in general I really like what I see with Angle flying or Tracing as they call it. Sebastian is doing a beginner camp in Feb but Im already signed up with Maxine with the PD/Flight 1 team to work on more canopy piloting stuff. Anyone else coaching or running schools on angle flying? Anyone else going to be running camps through the summer or courses that you guys know of?

Not for me. Being made aware of this problem, and having been adequately warned by my SL instructor of the slowness of opening of sport parachutes versus what I jumped in the military (as low as 500' AGL) I have ALWAYS had a break off altitude and hard deck in excess of what the SIM recommended. (I generally break off between 5-4.5 and pull at 4-3.5.) I still jump with a student AAD even though Im off student status and have my A. And once I buy my own AAD and rig I will set the deployment altitude higher than the factory setting. Most likely 1,250.

Good luck. As a newbie myself Im finding it difficult. Which is what MasterRigger is complaining about I think. Not enough info is being openly made available to people in order for them to make an informed decision.

Thats the biggest problem. People are charging $400+ bucks for these things and praying on new jumpers who dont know any better. I almost fell for it. But I called the manufacturer first and even they told me the certificates are a joke in terms of what you actually save.

In all actuality the only time I assume I will need an AAD, and the reason I jump with one, is in the event I am unconscious due to mid-air collision, spinning, or hard opening (neck injury). So the chances of me having the AAD deploy, not cut the loop, and then my still being conscious in order to pull the pin instead are slim and none. But every little bit helps. If there is a chance a top mounted cutter may not cut the loop, and instead result in a bag lock, then I would prefer a bottom mounted cutter...all things being equal. Just trying to expand my knowledge of the sport and learn every little bit I can.

Thats the additional info I was looking for thanks.

And after reading the cutter vs push/pull thread and the potential for danger with a cutter on the top of a reserve versus the bottom creating a bag lock should it not fully cut the closing loop....which containers have the cutter placed on the bottom versus the top?

This is why the forums need a report function. To alert Mods to obvious spammers like this guy.

So what do people think of the Thomas Sports Viper? http://www.thomas-sports.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=27&Itemid=18 After watching the youtube video reserve deployment failure video of the AAD, seems a pop top design would eliminate that possibility. Also I will admit from a sheer coolness factor the Alien Skin looks awesome. And the price is pretty reasonable compared to many US companies. Pros and cons?

Here's where talking to a good rigger can really help you. Javelins have been basically the same since before 2000. Pilots have been out over 10 years, as have been Sabre 2's, and many other current canopies. PD reserves have been around even longer. These are just the ones that I'm personally familiar with, and that are appropriate for newer jumpers (e.g. Stilettos have been out for even longer, but they're not appropriate for most newer jumpers). A closet queen can be a great deal -- something that someone bought when they were enthusiastic, and then the gear outlasted the 100 jumps worth of enthusiasm. Wendy P. Gotcha. Thanks Wendy.

The Silhouette is like a big slow comfortable RV, especially at the wing loading you are looking at. I jumped a 210 back in Nov about 10 times down at Deland. Forgiving of early flares, which I kept doing because I was used to jumping old F-111 and having to bury the toggles. Might be just what you are looking for.

Seems like they caught a case of dumbass disease, ie not spotting and no altitude awareness.

Yeah Im not going older than 5 years on used stuff.

Which is what everyone keeps telling me, but when most used gear I see advertised is only $300 to 500 for a complete rig cheaper than buying a brand new rig is (when buying stock from manufacturers now in the off season and getting package discounts) I just dont see the point in going used. I found that one Vector 3 container I linked to above for just $1400, but when I emailed the seller asking if she would ship to a rigger for purchase...well she stopped responding so I think its a scam. For example right now in the classifieds is a store asking $3250 for a two year old container and reserve. I can get a stock brand new container (customized to my size) and PDR brand new for just 3600, so its only saving me $400 bucks. So why not buy new?

I was aiming for around a 176 or 193 for a reserve. Ive been told reserves fly slower and safer than their size would lead one to believe.

Seller sent me pics. Im waiting to see if she will ship it to my rigger and let them act as escrow for the sale. Its a V349 and will fit a 170 normal or 190 Pulse. During my canopy flight course with Flight 1 I used a 210 Silhouette down at Deland. The Silhouette felt like driving a bus, big and slow. After the course Maxine, the instructor, suggested that for purchase I look at a 190 Storm or Sabre 2. I used a 7 cell main during my SL course to get my A license so I like the idea of buying the Storm. With that container I'd have to start with a 190 Pulse due to its size but when I got ready to downsize I could get the 170 Storm then. Whats everyone think of Curv's? They have stock rigs, in stock, in neutral black colors in the size I need with lots of extras for very reasonable price ($2380). And being a stock rig the turn around time is short.