Cloudseeder

OK! I admit I'm a stone age guy working daily with a chisel and a hammer as I shape the stone.I don't understand computers so well just yet although I'm working hard to educate myself . Yo' Indys, what does YHBT mean? LOL! Embarassed by my ignorance, Fair Winds and Unlimited Ceilings, "Treetop

_________________________________________________ What gave you the idea that I was seeking any respect from those who I don't respect? Now some of the BOD are "good people" but many are not! For the most part they are looking out for their own self-interests and should not be trusted to look out for the Fun Jumpers Interests. "Treetop"

__________________________________________________ Well actually I didn't bring this back up but as long as it's in the air... Does anyone actually believe that the attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were not the result of a "conspiracy"? "Treetop" , the Fun Jumpers Candidate and the "Most Excellent " if misunderstood man in Skydiving

Do you know why Dave took over the "Mondays" post? It is because the person who was previously doing it was so pointlessly insulting and unprofessional that there was no point to responding. The questions and posts following were just unintelligent diatribes. There was no actual interest in asking the BOD questions or gaining information, just being abusive. __________________________________________________ Mr Bickner, do you know for a fact that this is why Mr. Todak was asked to act as moderator of that forum? __________________________________________________ In a recent post, that person used the phrase "bunch of Punk Ass Chumps". __________________________________________________ My Word! Who is this person , this B b b barbaric brute? __________________________________________________ That is the tone that I am referring to. I certainly wouldn't respond to anyone addressing me in such a manner, I doubt you would, I don't wonder that the BOD chose not to do so also. __________________________________________________ Brass Tacks now Mr Bickner, Many of the BOD quit responding because I wouldn't allow them to waste my time or the readers time with the spin and lies or the word salads or the circle talk. I'm a pretty perceptive person and I know when someone is trying to BS around. I wasn't going to have that in what was to be an informative weekly thread. When the spin got started I'd call them on it.Simple as that. Again, I challenge you to provide one quote from a Mondays with the BOD thread which is out of line. Mondays with the BOD was a second chance for many of the BOD to regain my respect. With that said let me tell you that after that second chance , and after attending the last three board meetings , I still find many of the current BOD to be in the position of Director more for their own self interests than for the good of the Fun Jumpers. These types I have no respect for but only disdain. Do some of my posts on Rec. reflect that? No.., they illuminate that fact straight out . "Treetop"

Actually, that is not true. At one point, there were some valid questions and attempts at valid answers. Then it became a bunch of questions where the question implies some poor action or complicity in the action. The "have you stopped beating your wife?" question. You are screwed no matter how you answer. Or "what are you going to do to stop the evil... conspiracy?". If there is no secret evil conspiracy, how do you answer that. __________________________________________________ Mr. Bickner, could you provide an example of that type question from the Mondays with the BOD thread that supports your statement? Thanks, "Treetop"

"Don -- I believe dropzone.com is a fairly serious skydiving web site. " Oh And I have no doubt that you are exactly right Paul.. Did some one say *Boobies*???? "I've found none better. From your posts though, it didn't seems as if you were actually looking for a discussion about skydiving. " Well Mr Quade, I did come to the forum looking for a discusion about skydiving when I noticed a thread which you yourself had started. Knowing your name and credibility I clicked on that thread expecting some serious skydiving discussion. Alas! This was not to be! I'm afraid I was sucked into a discussion about conspiracy theorist and theories. And by a moderator no less! Whoa is me!;>) Well Paul it seems that another moderator has now challenged me to live up to my disclaimer and attempt to offend the good pierced and printed people on Dropzone.com! Not my style! It would be like shooting ducks on the water! No Paul ,what Mr. Von seems to have missed is that I was over here playing nicely and having a genuinely good time. If it's alright with the greenies and the HH I think I'll stick my head in here every now and then and attempt to be offensive in a civil manner !LOL! Oh well how ever it goes, Fair Winds and Unlimited Ceilings for you and yours Mr. Quade, "Treetop"

Shunned. That is a term the Amish use to describe a member of the community who has acted way out of the bounds of the society. No court trial, no jury , no nothin',... just shunned. The person just isn't noticed or recognized. Cloud Seeder

woof, woof, woof, woof, woof. woof, woof, woof, woof, woof. Uhmm... nws01, for your own safety you might want to stay on the porch for a bit while the Big Dogs play! LOFL Cloud Seeder

"You have interpreted my response correctly, although I wouldn't call Timothy McVeigh a "mastermind." He built a really crude bomb," No Mr Indys, The bomb that brought down the Murrow Building was a DEVASTATING bomb . A Bomb that destroyed several buildings ,killed many people and impacted the lives of many others for ever! A bomb that forever changed life in these United States! That bomb was one of the first terroristic acts which started the populace thinking about trading away their Constitutional Rights for the promise of security. No Mr Indys, The Bomb that Mr Mc'veigh supposedly constructed may appear crude to the ignorant, non thinking layman, however let me tell you that the Bomb that Timothy Mc'Veigh supposedely constructed was a very "smart" bomb! Cloud Seeder

LOL Mr Von! You actually "get" it! [font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][size 2]"If, for some reason you are not offended, please write me with a description of yourself including your name, race, weight, religious views, political party, strong opinions, physical disabilities, weird sexual preferences, or anything else that you are touchy about, and I will try to offend you in a future post." So if, by your leaving, I take it that you were unable to sufficiently offend us, good luck in finding people with thinner skins somewhere else on the net. Perhaps a far right (or far left) political board somewhere - those people seem to take themselves _quite_ seriously. "[/size][/font] [font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][size 2] Damn !!! And just when I was about to give up on this pierced and tattooed forum, Bill Von saves the day for you!!! Basically he's convinced me to "stick around".[/size][/font] I think he wants me to stick around and attempt to offend you. I feel so much like family now!!!!! Hey sister, is that a tattoo or a rug burn? LOL!! CloudSeeder, not going nowhere! all together now.... "Thanks Bill!!!! [font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][size 2] [/size][/font]

"Well, Don, you caught us. Here we were, thinking no one would ever catch on to our diabolical schemes, but we didn't count on your keen intellect. We would have gotten away with it, too, if not for you meddling kids! Yep, the Apollo thing - my fault. See, when we made all those models, at first we made a "film" of the command module actually landing on the moon, and so we put up that sign at the Smithsonian to explain the dust. But then Lisa (yeah, she's in on this too - all the moderators are) noticed that the CM doesn't really have any landing gear. Or descent engines. And that made it hard to explain the purpose of the LEM anyway. So we took the sign down, and hoped no one noticed our little gaff. But we couldn't pull that one over on you. All our hours of work with scissors and super-8 film, foiled by one 12 year old kid! And Elvis? No doubt you've caught on that he's not really dead - most of the supermarket tabloids have figured out our plot on that one. We kidnapped him so he could kill JFK for us. I know, I know, the history books say that JFK was killed in 1963, and Elvis died in 1977, but we print the history books down here in our secret lair, so "fixing" that was no problem. Then there was that whole Bin Laden thing. I mean, the history books all say we gave him billions of dollars in the '80s so he (and the mujahideen) could fight the communists in Afghanistan, but come on - do you really think the US government could be that dumb, to send weapons and money to fanatic guerillas who don't really like the US? Instead, it all went to keeping the Reagan/Madonna affair secret. Of course we kept a little cut for ourselves. And if anyone ever threatens to spill the beans on us - we have the tapes, and believe me, they ain't pretty. And while hatching secret conspiracy plots can get tiring, at least it's fun in the lair. We still have Elvis here, although he's getting a little long in the tooth, and between him, Jim Morrison and Janis Joplin we have quite the band down here. The evil clone gets scared when Janis sings (her voice has gotten even rougher, if you can believe that) but other than that, they're a pretty decent oldies band. BTW, ever look closely at the members of the Flying Elvi? Ever notice one who looks just a little _too_ much like an overweight, 67 year old version of the King? After watching Quade's 4-way videos for about the millonth time he finally gave skydiving a shot, and seems to actually have a knack for it. " Well Mr. Von, It has become excrutiatingly clear to me that you and your cronies here on Dropzone.com are not interested in "serious" discussion but prefer to satirize serious subjects. "To each his own". That's my motto. I admit that I find it unfortunate that in my quest to find a more serious type skydiving forum,Mr. Von, my stop at www.dropzone.com didn't measure up. Oh well, I'll continue the search . I truly hope that Andy finds the keys to a peaceful life and that the bruises to that young ladys' jaw/ psyche heal in time. With all that said and as the sun sets in the west, I bid you a fair *adieu * Mr.s Von, Quade , and Indyz. Fair Winds and Unlimited Ceilings for all of you and all of my fellow skydivers, "Treetop" a.k.a. LORD OF THE SKY a.k.a. Cloud Seeder

But I'm the one with the rediculous scenarios? C'mon Mr Indyz, criminals may be dumb but do you really believe that's what happened? "You haven't actually given us a scenario beyond "government conspiracy." So, to answer your question, yes." Mr. Indyz, the question was this;You expect me to believe that Timothy Mc'Veigh masterminded a plot to create a huge bomb and detonation device ,concealed it in a bright yellow moving van that the ATF agents never noticed parked right out front on the morning of the bombing as they scoured the bushes around the building looking for a bomb? But then he was cruising along in a *getaway car* with no license plates? LOL!! Like "Attention Please" "Please pull Me Over" ! "I have a gun under my clothing . I just killed countless good people but I won't draw my gun on you Mr. Officer! LOFL! and your answer is "Yes"? ? Do you Mr Indyz actually believe that to be a plausible scenario? That the mastermind of one of the most despicable crimes in all of American history was dumb enough to plan his escape in a car with no tags, a car filled with evidence which linked him to the bombing, and that this mass murderer who was carrying firearms was reticient to use them against a State Patrol officer who pulled him over? ",yes" And ya' wonder how they get away with it folks??? Yo' Mr Indyz, Where did you get your info about the traffic stop of Timothy Mc'Veigh? Was it from an established media source? And where did the media get their information on the traffic stop of Timothy Mc'Veigh? Don't bother Mr Indyz, it's a rhetorical question. There is only one source from which the media could have gotten this info, The Government . Cloud Seeder Now we are off topic. If you would like to continue this side discussion, please start another thread or contact me via private messages.

[font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][size 2]>Of course I know this Mr. Von, however I also know that when I > visited the National Museum as a child I did witness the bottom of > a "space capsule" encased in plexiglass and I did read the plaque > next to it which stated the plexiglass was there to preserve the > moon dust. I observed some type of dust between the plexiglass > and the capsule. "Even when I was 12, I wouldn't have fallen for that."[/size][/font] [font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][size 2] Interestingly enough Mr. Von, even in your advanced years you seem to believe much of the governments disinformation!![/size][/font] I did witness that exhibit. Cloud Seeder [font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][size 2] [/size][/font]

>But that is what we are expected to believe. That the random fires > created by an aircraft impact to a structure brought forth a fire which > melted through the steel colums supporting this building ,melted > through all of the supporting steel at a simultaneous moment in > time. "Nope, first one went; the remaining ones held the load. Then another one went. Then a third. (This, of course, is in addition to the ones weakened by the initial impact.) Finally a support went and the load was too much for the remaining ones. One floor collapsed. It hit the floor beneath it and collapsed it; and so on down to ground level. " Yes Mr. Von, we all realize the towers collapsed. The question is that if the realistic scenario you've provided [first one went , then another , then a third ] why did the collapse occur straight down? Considering the scenario of one column after the other failing, we would expect a twisting and toppling collapse. But no Mr. Von, the building collapsed almost exactly vertical. The type of collapse one would expect from well placed and exactly timed explosive charges not an unpredictable fire. Cloud Seeder

" I hope I wouldn't let the emotions of seeing one person die endager the rest of the passengers. " Well how about if you saw two flight attendants murdered Mr. Indyz, what about three ,or four? At what point Mr Indyz are you going to stand up and attempt to put a stop to it? Are you going to wait until it's your turn before you act?? Cloud Seeder

"McVeigh was arrested because an alert state trooper pulled him over for driving a car without license plates, then noticed that he had a weapon in a shoulder holster underneath his windbreaker. Evidence linking him to the Ferderal Building was found in the car." LOL Mr. Indyz, You expect me to believe that Timothy Mc'Veigh masterminded a plot to create a huge bomb and detonation device ,concealed it in a bright yellow moving van that the ATF agents never noticed parked right out front on the morning of the bombing as they scoured the bushes around the building looking for a bomb? But then he was cruising along in a *getaway car* with no license plates? LOL!! Like "Attention Please" "Please pull Me Over" ! "I have a gun under my clothing . I just killed countless good people but I won't draw my gun on you Mr. Officer! LOFL! But I'm the one with the rediculous scenarios? C'mon Mr Indyz, criminals may be dumb but do you really believe that's what happened? Cloud Seeder

"Before September 11th, I wouldn't have attacked a hijacker with a box cutter, especially if they claimed to have explosives. Most airplane hijackings end well for the passengers, and I wouldn't risk killing a plane load of people when I knew that I would likely survive if I just waited. " Mr Indyz, if you witnessed a flight attendent getting her throat gutted open by a boxcutter armed assailant, would you take no action due to a threat of explosives?? Most airplane hijackings end well for the passengers Mr Indys? Do you remember the body of one US serviceman being uncerimoniously dumped to the tarmack? In the face of any armed attack how could you possibly sit back like unthinking cattle awaiting slaughter? What? .. let me guess.. You hope for the best???At the hands of criminals you sit back and hope for the best? For some mercy? For the criminal who just announced that he will kill you if you so much as blink an eye to have a sudden change of heart? What happened to the American Spirit? Where are the John Waynes? The Duke didn't have any body piercings, I can see and here him now in that situation, "Let's Go!" Cloud Seeder They wanted people to know that they did it! Terrorism doesn't work if nobody knows who was responsible for the act. -- Brian

"But what would be the purpose of anonymous terrorism? " A better question may be Mr. Quade, what was the goal of the attacks on September 11th? How would these attacks benefit Osama and company? The fact is that the Taliban had a nice little gig goin' on over there in Afganistan , being the rulers and all! No Paul, dropping a few buildings and killing thousands of innocents wouldn't benefit Osama or his adopted dupes. Interesting to me is that after every terroristic action here in the US the *suspect* is already set up for indictment. Immediately after the bombing in Oklahoma City, Timothy McVeigh was arrested and the press already had all kinds of info on him. It was less than an hour after the strike on the World Trade Center that Osama was billed as the villian du jour. Amazingly quick and effecient detective work by those who were caught totally unaware as to the planned attacks, no? Speaking of which, have I mentioned that I visited my local FSDO the day before the attacks? Yes, that is very true. Also true is that the day before the attacks I was subjected to increased security measures at FSDO Atlanta . Security much higher than on any of my previous visits.(Interesting!) But the Gov had no idea! Hmmn... "If the goal of a terrorist act is to have someone change what they are doing, how can they possibly know what to change if they don't know who sent the message?" How about Paul, if the goal was to fool the American people into relinquishing their Constitutional Rights? If that was the goal it has been quite a sucessful attack! You do realize that the members of the present administration have sucessfully suspended the Right of Habeous Corpeous , don't you Paul? Hey here's a snippet from the La Times where they are trying to go a little further with this;Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft's announced desire for camps for U.S. citizens he deems to be "enemy combatants" has moved him from merely being a political embarrassment to being a constitutional menace. Ashcroft's plan, disclosed last week but little publicized, would allow him to order the indefinite incarceration of U.S. citizens and summarily strip them of their constitutional rights and access to the courts by declaring them enemy combatants. The proposed camp plan should trigger immediate congressional hearings and reconsideration of Ashcroft's fitness for this important office. Whereas Al Qaeda is a threat to the lives of our citizens, Ashcroft has become a clear and present threat to our liberties. "In order for OBL to get his point across, which I believe is something like, get the U.S. out of the Arab world, then he must out of necessity leave at least a few clues. " Conversley, In order for the US to make legitimate claims of the right to self protection and the need of their presence in the Arab World, it would be necessary for them to leave a few clues which indict the Arabs for these atrocities. So which is more likely, the Taliban called attention onto themselves and their great gig, or the US wanted to legitimatize their presence in the Oil producing portion of the world? Cloud Seeder

>I must be wrong in my memory of visiting the Smithsonian as a > young (12 yr old)child in 1972 and marveling at the exhibit of the > Apollo capsule (the underside of which was encased in plexiglass to > preserve the moon dust). "You are wrong. There was never any "moon dust" on the heat shield of any of the Apollo capsules," Of course I know this Mr. Von, however I also know that when I visited the National Museum as a child I did witness the bottom of a "space capsule" encased in plexiglass and I did read the plaque next to it which stated the plexiglass was there to preserve the moon dust. I observed some type of dust between the plexiglass and the capsule. "nor did NASA (or any government agencies) claim that there was. " Is the Smithsonian run by a government agency? If so your statement and my recollection are just not compatible. "So while it is possible to create your own conspiracy theories by making them up when you're 12, it's tough to sustain them in practice" In shorter form "who am I going to believe, the Government or my own *lying eyes*. Hey is this the same governmental body who knew about the attack on Pearl Harbor way in advance and took no actions to prevent the attack? Because the attack would solve some problems? The same govermnent that created the secret triangle of money ,drugs,and weapons violating our own laws and policies? The same government which supported Noriega and helped him in his drug dealing and then later launched an offensive against him and tried him for the same drug dealing? Is it Mr. Von, The same government which paid millions of dollars to one "Osama Bin Laden" as a CIA operative? The same government which convienently can't find him now? You know Mr. Von, If I was smart enough to learn to fly a jumbo jet and to get myself and all my fellow conspirators enough false ID and documentation to board US planes,and smart enough to plan a brilliant ,feindish, sucessful attack against three different high profile targets and to figure out the logistics to pull it all together so that each target is hit within an hour of the others, If I'm wily enough to hold a jetload full of passengers at bay with only a box cutter , if I'm cunning enough to get that weapon through the metal detector, Do you really believe that I'm stupid enough to leave so much evidence behind in a rental car at Logan Airport? An instructional video on how to fly an airplane and a copy of the Koran? I'm suprised there wasn't a letter from Osama himself spurring us on and wishing us the best of luck with our mission! No Bill , If I was smart enough to put all that together there wouldn't be that type of evidence left so easily behind. Unless of course, I wanted you to believe that I was someone I was not! "Treetop" a.k.a. CloudSeeder

>Paul , can you explain how two different buildings, impacted at > different angles, speeds and by different loads, at different levels , > each fell as if by a designed implosion? "Because they imploded when the central supports of each building were weakened by fire. That's how professional demolition companies bring down buildings. (They use explosives instead of fire but same effect.)" Mr. Von , Is there any reason you can think of why demolition contractors use explosives instead of fire? I'll help to start you out, Explosive charges can be exactlly placed and their effect calculated where as the destructive force of fire is hard to control to any precise advantage. Certainly it would be near to impossible to harness a fire which would melt through 20 steel columns at a precisely simultaneous moment. But that is what we are expected to believe. That the random fires created by an aircraft impact to a structure brought forth a fire which melted through the steel colums supporting this building ,melted through all of the supporting steel at a simultaneous moment in time. Oh! Not just once Mr. Von ,but Twice... in the same day and within the same hour... Hmmn. Maybe you're right. CloudSeeder

"That is the main purpose of mythology isn't it? Unfortunately for the truly delusional, mythology is reality. " Just a second here Mr. Quade. Do you mean to tell me that you believe that the legends handed down from generation to generation in the ancient world weren't based on factual information? Sure the reporting of these factual accounts may suffer due to the then limited knowledge base but do you believe that similiar accounts from around the world concerning all sorts of items from Giants to "Gods" were just all made up? That these accounts are all just fantasy? That these very similar accounts from around the world at a time when interglobal communication was near to impossible are actually just "myths" made up to confuse and control the population? If that's your theory , Mr. Quade, ..I'd count you amongst the conspiracy theorists. Cloud Seeder

[font "Verdana,Arial,Helvetica"][size 1]Quote[/size][/font] Care to explain that or provide a link to any civil or structural engineer who attempts to explain that? "I believe I already have -- twice." C'mon Mr Quade, You're also smart enough to realize that the links you've provided don't begin to explain how the tower which took the lesser hit collapsed way before the tower that took a more substantial strike. Tell me Mr Quade, is it suprising to you the number of seats not filled on these cross continent flights? Are you suprised that the airlines didn't cancell a cross continent flight of only 58 passengers when the plane in normal configuration would carry 245? An aircraft less than 25% full leaving on a nonstop cross country flight? Hmm. Something stinks in the USA. Could be my Tevas, "Treetop" a.k.a. Cloud Seeder

"I could easily believe that the US government might want to fake a moon landing. I also honestly think it would cheaper and easier to actually go to the moon than pull off that sort of deception on that scale. " Uhmm..., OK Bill, Maybe it's just my memory that is so far off. I'm sure you are right and that we did set foot on the moon. I must be wrong in my memory of visiting the Smithsonian as a young (12 yr old)child in 1972 and marveling at the exhibit of the Apollo capsule (the underside of which was encased in plexiglass to preserve the moon dust). I'm a little older now, Not quite as naive, So how did moon dust collect on the re-entry capsules base? That capsule never landed on the moon. How did this dust remain on the bottom of the capsule during the high temps of re-entry? Where is that moon dust now Bill? What happened to the exhibit? The Nation lies to a troop of boy scouts LOL! You think they'd think twice about lying to you? Cloud Seeder

"In the interest of learning something, can you explain how it wasn't the fire and design/structure and lack of fire retardant whacamacallit on the top floors?" Fire retardent watchimicallit? LOL Michelle! The fire retardent used around the vertical steel columns of the World Trade Center was "vermiculite". Some sites claim that it was "plastered" on to the columns. This would be inconsistent with normal construction practises. As a matter of fact it would be near to impossible to "plaster" or to spread onto steel with a trowel any vermiculite mixture. No Michelle, the normal method of fire proofing steel columns would be to erect wooden forms around those steel columns and then pour into the forms 8 -12 inches of the vermiculite(a light weight concrete mixture) . Interior to the forms a grid of reinforcing steel is placed which provides additional strength to the concrete/ vermiculite mixture. With this "rebar" properly placed you may get some cracking of the vermiculite, but large failures /voids would be few and far between in normal conditions. I can't say how the reinforced Vermiculite may be affected by a major impact as experienced during the attacks of 9/11. I can tell you with close to 100% certainty that any web site which states that the vermiculite was "plastered" on to the steel columns is less than credible. "Treetop" a.k.a Cloud Seeder