Cypres

[krkeenan 0]

Considering the discussion that has ensued from the accident at Texel (AAD firing in a landing swoop), does anyone have an opinion on Cypres use in the upcoming CFWR ?

Wendy has expressed concerns about AAD activations from the PF of the new walki-talkies slated for use in the formation. We did an all-up test of these at Louisberg NC, and no reserves came out. I wouldn't call that a definitive test program (3 loads), but it's encouraging.

Kevin

======================
Seasons don't fear the Reaper,
nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain...

[faulknerwn 36]

To me its all about risks versus rewards. The vast majority of CRW entanglements that one might find oneself in - while still plenty fast to kill you - shouldn't be fast enough to deploy your reserve. And even if they are, most of the time you're going to be heads up enough to deploy it yourself.

To me, the only purpose of a Cypres in CRW is to save me if I somehow find myself knocked out on exit. And if I can comfortably exit an Otter and/or a Casa without knocking myself unconscious, the benefit ends there. Yet the risks of an inadvertent deployment, while quite small, still exist. And an unexpected deployment in CRW could easily kill you.

W

[TVPB 0]

Yeah - I kinda agree. I think AAD's are great for bigger freefall stuff at busier drop zones and boogies, but I hate the idea in CRW.

I think you are right Wendy, the only time you will need one in CRW is if you are knocked out and you have got nothing substantial out.

Exit is one obvious point.

But there is also the possibility of being in a very high speed wrap and being unconscious.

If you are knocked out by a severe dock. More often than not you will have a canopy above your head (or spiralling). I am not sure if I would want a reserve to fire into this arrangement when I am unconscious (if I was going fast enough for it to fire). Your damned if you do, and your damned if you don't. Spiralling in or potential main/reserve entanglement.

We had to wear a cypres at the World Meet in France in 2003. Our whole team borrowed them (thanks to the wonderful Freefall Factory in Melbourne and other supporters). I am not sure, but I may have inadvertantly and accidently , not deliberately, but mistakenly, forgotten to turn the bloody thing on EVERY now and EVERY again. I can't remember though as I am senile and I deny EVERYTHING, and this is not me posting under my name....

AAD in a big way??????????????????????? I vote NO.

But it is up to the big bosses and the jump location. I would trust Chris and co to make the right decision, they know there stuff and I am sure they have the political clout to get the DZ to agree to their wishes.

Anyway, at least you get to decide what you do, cypres on big way, no cypres on big way. I am jealous.
But save me a slot on the 100 way. I am coming one way or another!!!!

Good luck to you all. Hope you guys & gals get it.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[faulknerwn 36]

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But it is up to the big bosses and the jump location. I would trust Chris and co to make the right decision, they know there stuff and I am sure they have the political clout to get the DZ to agree to their wishes.

That's the nice thing about the US - its voluntary here and I don't see that changing anytime soon. As more and more of the European countries require them for everyone, it just seems likely to drive CRW out of Europe.

[dragon2 0]

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If you are knocked out by a severe dock. More often than not you will have a canopy above your head (or spiralling). I am not sure if I would want a reserve to fire into this arrangement when I am unconscious (if I was going fast enough for it to fire). Your damned if you do, and your damned if you don't. Spiralling in or potential main/reserve entanglement.

You have got to be kidding. You realise HOW FAST you're going when a cypres fires, right? Do you really think you have any chance at all to survive spiraling in at that speed?
And you're way too low to do anything about it if your cypres is getting scared.
More fabric = good, at this point. No way are you going to fix the situation you're in if you're spiraling down that fast, if you haven't before. A potential etanglement is way better than certain death, in my book.

I see absolutely no safety reasons (money though...) to not use a non-snaggable, modern AAD in crew, if you're not taking downplanes below 1000ft.

That my crw rig currently doesn't have one is purely money related, which is a fairly stupid reason I think but that's how it is. The rig's for sale now, too.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[faulknerwn 36]

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More fabric = good, at this point. No way are you going to fix the situation you're in if you're spiraling down that fast, if you haven't before. A potential etanglement is way better than certain death, in my book.

But there are a lot of unknowns - we know you can fire Cypreses under perfectly good open canopies - swoopers have done it. We know that Cypreses will fire if belly to earth than if tumbling because of the burble that is taken into account. I'm not sure what kind of burble readings you might get in a wrap situation. You could potentially be getting a firing much higher than 750 feet. I've seen some wrap videos of people in nasty wraps who cleared them low.
The Cypres just removes your ability to make a choice.

In the vast majority of cases, wearing a Cypres will neither hurt nor help. There are a lot of people that think that in the .1% of times that it might make a difference, its more likely to cause harm than to help.

The radio transmission issue worries me far more than the wrap issue though. Hopefully that's all fixed but I don't want to be the test jumper who finds out its not.

W

[TVPB 0]

I take your point r.e. the fabric above your head. Something is always better than nothing. And something more is better than something less.

However . . . .

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I see absolutely no safety reasons (money though...) to not use a non-snaggable, modern AAD in crew

I have seen one fire in a CRW formation and this formation was flying well, hence it did not have a high descent rate compared to the rate required to activate an AAD. And I was about to dock onto it!!!!!! Would I want one in a big way? Well, lets just say that people generally tend to form opinions on what they know, what they have seen, or what they have been told/heard/learned. I know that AAD's can fire in formations (I have seen it), and that is probably a greater risk to me than the unconscious scenario.

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No way are you going to fix the situation

Yep, that is because were referring to the unconscious state. Its hard to do anything then. If I am conscious, I can make the decision to get more fabric out (and I would).

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Do you really think you have any chance at all to survive spiraling in at that speed?

Probably not and I would not count on it - but I have seen someone spiral in pretty fast and survive. They happened to have landed in mud/water. But that is just pure luck.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[faulknerwn 36]

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I have seen one fire in a CRW formation and this formation was flying well, hence it did not have a high descent rate compared to the rate required to activate an AAD. And I was about to dock onto it!!!!!! Would I want one in a big way?

You've actually seen one? Do you know what type? Anyone figure out a reason? All of my talk has been theoretical before now - its interesting to hear of an incident actually happening...
More details please if you have them!
W

[CReWLL 0]

Just got off the phone with SSK. Eric said they went through many tests for the military about just such a situation. Cypres firings due to radio interference is not a problem.

[plastic 0]

Personally I only do crw and have not done an intentional freefall for about 5 years (other than after a chop).

I dont use an aad and apart from my home dz in england dont jump anywhere in europe anymore (my ex team used to train in france) because cypres is now becoming mandatory in most countries.

In fact last year we trained in Russia because we found a dz that would let us jump without aad (also about $9 a jump from mi-8 helicopter was a strong factor).

When aad becomes mandatory in England (hopefully not for a while) then i will retire from jumping.

We lived for years without aad and deaths were very rare (more so than now), I don't like being dictated to about these things, I am grown up and like the opportunity to make up my own mind on such matters.

plastic

[TVPB 0]

Not much chance of diagnosis or root cause analysis as it was one of those passing by a DZ, just getting a jump in scenario's. All I know is that it was a cypres, the cypres was out of date r.e. final servicing (12 yrs +), it was a clean fire (no equipment around the reserve, no dramatic descent rates, no high impact docks at the time, nothing out of the ordinary, loop cut cleanly), the rig was old/dirty/stained & looked like it had done water jumps (hello swoopers), the casing looked a little "who's your daddy", and the guy knew stuff all about his gear. BTW - it wasn't CRW specific gear. I had to depart so I did not find out much more. I had a gut feeling the guy was just going to throw the thing away as it was past its service date, instead of creating fuss around an out of date AAD incident....

This doesn't help much beyond the fact that I witnessed it from close range.

Bottom line, I have always been a believer in the LH as my AAD, especially in CRW. But then again, I have also jumped single parachute systems hundreds and hundreds of times!!!!!!! Some people like double redundancy and to limit the risk as close to zero as possible. Some people like to have one chance and to do it right that time, others, well. . . . Each to their own.

I am not against AAD's. I think they serve a useful purpose. I also think that people have a right to use one if they desire. But you can't rely on them. Someone came up with the quote for main AAD's - "I use an AAD. I set it at the start of the day, but then I forget it". AAD's on reserves has complicated things a bit. You can't forget them. You have to have a plan for their use at certain altitudes. Kind of funny isn't it - they supposedly help people who are height unaware, yet you have to have a plan for them at certain altitudes. Go figure. Height awareness becomes all that more important because of the potential (real as it HAS happened), of mains and reserves firing at the same time. I don't know the stats, but I am reasonably confident that they have saved height unaware people many more times than unconscious people.

I think they are a good idea for students and tandems in particular (Especially for the passenger of that turkey that was looking at his faulty alti on that clear day and did not notice that it was not moving whilst he was in freefall).

But lets look at the reality of AAD's and saving lives. They have saved lives, and they have taken lives. They are more beneficial for people who "really need them", and less so for people who are competant/safe/skilled parachutists.

Then there is the innocent victim thing - where someone else causes you to become unconscious during a jump. To be honest, if I was worried about this happening to me (and I have done a lot of World Level close comp CRW exits with other big guys), I would probably stop driving on the roads too. Because there is a greater chance that an incident will take my life there.

Is there a chance that I could be involved in a fatal incident where a cypres could have saved my life? Of course. Anything is possible. But I am comfortable with my assessment of the relateive risks of various scenarios and as a result, prefer to go without on CRW jumps. That's just me, and my opinion. If it happens to me, feel free to have a laugh and a beer, just learn something from the experience (beyond I told you so) !!!!!!!!!

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[CReWLL 0]

I just got off the phone with SSK. Eric said they went through many tests for the military about just such a situation. A Cypres firing due to radio interference is not a problem.


I know, I know, but we ain't swoopin'...................

[jose9878 0]

Upon exit on CRW jumps, I got used to tossing my pilot chute back towards the door. Almost never would it go back in the airplane, the one time it did Chris Maladnov, the pilot, had a little chat with me & I stopped it.

Prior to that jump I was on a two-way CRW jump over Raeford exiting from a King Air. My brother was buckled in next to the door as an observer. Do to low clouds, I exited the airplane at 4500 feet with pilot chute in hand & tossed it back towards the door, smiling at my brother who had 0 jumps at the time. I came to under 2000 feet without a clue where I was, what I was doing or why I was under canopy. My buddy saw me hanging in the harness, head down, hands hanging and heading away from the DZ. He noticed I was knocked out so he spiraled down to inform the DZ. At about 2K when I came to, I reached up, grabbed a toggle, did a 180 & headed back towards the airport, landing at the end of the runway. My teammates came out in the golf cart, picked me up & took me to the airplane. My head hurt & there were bright flashes out of the corner of my eye. The dent in the horizontal stabilizer went back about an inch & was the size of my head. Wearing a frap-hat I struck the tail of the airplane with the back of my head. The horizontal stabilizer had been bent back, needing to be completely replaced. I was not wearing a cypress.

I am very fortunate that I was quick on the draw on this particular CRW jump. I did lots of competitive CRW in the early 90’s, stopped jumping for 9 years & have recently returned back to the sport. Back when I was doing CRW, wearing a cypress was taboo. It just wasn’t done. Everyone understood the risks & none of the serious competitors wore them. Returning to the sport after 9 years I was surprised to find that people are wearing them while doing CRW. Last weekend I refused to go on some CRW loads because of this. I decided to go back & find out more before being on CRW loads with people wearing them. I asked questions & read the Cypress users guide which does not cover anything about CRW & Cypress.

I do understand very clearly the benefits of having a cypress. I wear one on all jumps with the exception of CRW jumps. I’m still weary of them on CRW loads but have decided not to scratch off loads because someone decides to wear one. Watching the group rubbing nylon was just too tempting. Whatever people decide to do, wear them or not, I’ll respect their choice & drive on.

JP