planes & safety

[Flavius 0]

Recent plane incidents have made me think about planes a bit.

- Do you do anything relating to planes as a skydiver not knowledgeable about planes to help make it safer day when you jump?

- I've heard folks say they avoid single engine planes. Is that recommended?

- If so, what if you are manifested on what you think is a dual engine plane and something changed to get you a single engine? Do you just not go? It would probably sound strange to try to trade slots with someone else if your reason is that you find that particular plane less safe.

[riggerrob 558]

Take my advice for what it is worth: almost 40 years of jumping and a couple of seasons in the pilot's seat of a Cessna jump-plane.

First I check for oil leaks: normal on radial engines but cause for concern on turbines.
Secondly, I always wear my seatbelt and tie down my tandem student.
Thirdly, I quietly watch how thorough the pre-flight inspection is and keep an eye on how often the pilot checks fuel and oil with a dip-stick.

Twin-engine airplanes are not necessarily more reliable. They become the world's worst aircraft when an engine quits shortly after take-off.
Any airplane as old as a jump-plane depends on diligent mechanics and well-trained pilots to keep it in the air.
Some of the safest jump-planes are turbine singles (Cessna Caravan, PAC 750, Pilatus Porter, Kodiak) because they have large power reserves and are slow enough and docile enough to injure few passengers during a forced landing.
My first favorite airplane is anything with a tail gate and my second favorite is Quest's Kodiak.

I learned my opinions the hard way: while getting flung around the cabin of a crashing King Air because the pilot/co-owner was too cheap to buy proper seat-belts ...... or Transport Canada refused to allow him to install American-approved set-belts in an American-registered airplane. Lawyers are still squabbling over the details 8 years after the crash.
Either way, lawyers relegated the wounded to priority last 4 years ago. Lawyers hate to be reminded of my aching knee because it distracts them from their primary goal: more billable hours.
Do I sound bitter?

[wolfriverjoe 1,341]

As a pilot, I will always try to educate jumpers on plane safety.

But, as passengers, there's really not a whole lot we can do.

As Rob noted, look at the general condition of the plane, and how well the pilot preflights it. Adding oil on a regular basis can also be a bad thing (like every other flight).

Board safely, use seat belts, sit where you are supposed to, don't move around a whole lot, don't put a whole lot of weight in the back on exit (red line in Skyvans, huge chunks in PACs), that sort of thing,

From a statistical standpoint, twins are actually more dangerous than singles (look at the insurance rates). Mainly because if you lose an engine in a single, you are landing. If you lose an engine in a twin, you need to do everything right in order not to crash. There's an old joke that goes:

Oh, no! We lost an engine! How far do you thing the other one will take us?
All the way to the crash site.

Also, engine failures are pretty rare. Most general aviation crashes (not just jumping) are pilot error.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[diverdriver 5]

To learn more about jump plane safety and flying skydivers DiverDriver.com

You can review accidents and see a break down on single engine vs. multi-engine jump planes.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[jclalor 12]

Flavius

Recent plane incidents have made me think about planes a bit.

- Do you do anything relating to planes as a skydiver not knowledgeable about planes to help make it safer day when you jump?

- I've heard folks say they avoid single engine planes. Is that recommended?

- If so, what if you are manifested on what you think is a dual engine plane and something changed to get you a single engine? Do you just not go? It would probably sound strange to try to trade slots with someone else if your reason is that you find that particular plane less safe.

Those sure are some peculiar questions for someone without a profile.

[sammielu 3]

Get to know your pilot. Have a beer or a meal with them, ask questions (where are they going to land in the event of an engine out on takeoff is a good one, but maybe start with how's your day, how'd you get into flying here, etc), get your own read of their personality and personal preparedness. I'm pretty sure bringing any pilot a cold drink on a hot day when they're stuck in the plane makes fast friends (pass it up to them when you board, never approach the pilot door without permission, reclosable containers only).

[riggerrob 558]

Good point.
Pilot's doors on larger jump-planes: Navajo Chieftan, Twin Otter, Skyvn, etc. are ahead of the propellers and walking near propellers is a dangerous and expensive practice.
Safer to pass a screw-top soda bottle forward inside the cabin.

[Phil1111 911]

wolfriverjoe

As a pilot, I will always try to educate jumpers on plane safety.

But, as passengers, there's really not a whole lot we can do.

As Rob noted, look at the general condition of the plane, and how well the pilot preflights it. Adding oil on a regular basis can also be a bad thing (like every other flight).

Board safely, use seat belts, sit where you are supposed to, don't move around a whole lot, don't put a whole lot of weight in the back on exit (red line in Skyvans, huge chunks in PACs), that sort of thing,

From a statistical standpoint, twins are actually more dangerous than singles (look at the insurance rates). Mainly because if you lose an engine in a single, you are landing. If you lose an engine in a twin, you need to do everything right in order not to crash. There's an old joke that goes:

Oh, no! We lost an engine! How far do you thing the other one will take us?
All the way to the crash site.

Also, engine failures are pretty rare. Most general aviation crashes (not just jumping) are pilot error.

Agree. Turbines safer than piston. Twin Otter the safest IMO. Even though the SE climb rate is no hell (480 FPM for -300) its low landing and stall speeds are comforting.

The risks in skydiving are mostly all within the control of a jumper. They almost entirely arise from your own equipment and what happens after exit. Most of which you personally control. Watch out for other jumpers in freefall and after opening.

[Di0 1]

wolfriverjoe

From a statistical standpoint, twins are actually more dangerous than singles

Incorrect.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[Phil1111 911]

Di0

***
From a statistical standpoint, twins are actually more dangerous than singles

Incorrect.

I think he is referring to piston twins. You are both actually right.
Turbofan/jet and turbine twins are safer. Piston twins not.
http://www.flyingmag.com/wrong-worry-twins-versus-singles

[Flavius 0]

Thanks for the info, all.

Riggerrob, sorry to hear of the legal mess; hope they can untangle it in your favor.

[riggerrob 558]

............................

- Do you do anything relating to planes as a skydiver not knowledgeable about planes to help make it safer day when you jump?

...............................................................

Maintain gear well.
Keep spare rubber bands and closing loops within reach of packers.

Checking if the pilot had sufficient water and snacks, giving him/ her time for pee breaks, time for checking oil, helping him push the airplane towards the fuel pumps, chasing people away from the propeller, etc.

Trivial question, why are TIs better at turning Cessna 206 than AFFIs?

Lead by example by always having my seat-belt tight, helmet strapped to my head, etc. before take-off.
Teasing people who sit too far aft.
Promoting calm, methodical exits, etc.

[WV177RG 19]

He may be referring to safety statistics after engine failure in flight (excluding transport category aircraft.) Pilots of single engine airplanes experiencing engine failure, when unable ro restore power, prepare for a controlled forced landing. Pilots of light twins have a higher fatal accident rate after engine failure due to lack of understanding of their aircraft's greatly reduced capabilities when flying on the remaining engine, and poor flying technique and/or judgment. Typically higher V speeds and higher weights lead to greater energy that needs to be dissipated on landing. Loss of drag when a windmilling prop is feathered contributes to overshoot/overrun accidents. Just a few contributing factors.

[kallend 1,625]

Suggest you check on their fueling procedures.

Lots of incidents and accidents due to fuel contamination or fuel exhaustion.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Phil1111 911]

kallend

Suggest you check on their fueling procedures.

Lots of incidents and accidents due to fuel contamination or fuel exhaustion.

Which reminds me of the time we were jumping a TU-206 and someone refuels the AC with 80/87 avgas. So we take off and the pilot-owner can't maintain altitude and starts to descend. There is a valley next to the runway and down into it we go.

I'm JM and I'm sitting in the door. The horizon is above the wings of the AC and the engine is running rough, terrain below rough and heavily treed. The next person to the door is a student so I thought it would be a good time to refresh his training regarding emergency evacuation of the aircraft.

Thankfully the refueling wasn't full tanks and after five minutes or so we were able to climb out of the valley and climb to altitude without further incident.