New - Rebel Freeflyer License system - structure and organization

[Levin 0]

- For the sake of time some of the text has been copied from my other post. –

This thread is to discuss the structure and introduction of a new Rebel Freeflyer license system. This thread is not intended for discussion of test requirements.

Relevant topics include…

1. Why does freeflying need a license system?
2. What does a Rebel Freeflyer license do? What is it’s purpose?
3. How to implement it?
4. What does it cost?

Why does freeflying both need and want a license system?

Freeflying is probably the hardest discipline to learn in skydiving. The learning curve is broad and long sometimes spanning over a course of several years. Currently the vast majority of freeflyers fit into this initial learning curve. There are certain basic skills that one must acquire before they are safe to jump with other people. As it is right now, there is really no way to know if someone has the proper skills without first jumping with them. For group freefly skydives these skills need to be determined before boarding the plane. Those in the initial learning curve would benefit the most. Since the number of upcoming freeflyers greatly outnumbers the experienced freeflyers, newer freeflyers tend to mostly jump with newer freeflyers. Since these jumps are usually unorganized, a freefly license system would give the upcoming freeflyers a tool to better organize their own dives and so that they can get the most out of them. Since load organizers jump with everybody they also would benefit greatly from a license system. Also much of the freefly community, especially those in the initial learning curve appear to want a license system because it gives them a set list of goals to work towards.

What is the purpose of the Rebel Freefly license system?

To provide a widely accepted system of attainable goals that 1st places an emphasis on safety and 2nd on personal achievement. An unnumbered system that places little importance on when these goals are achieved, just so long that they are achieved. A system that serves the best interest of the freefly community.

What does a Rebel Freefly license do?

By having demonstrated a level of skill and control the licenses serve as certificates of achievement suggesting the degree of safety that can be expected from a license holder. This quick reference would help freeflyers keep their dives safe and better enable load organizers to do their jobs. And by recognizing personal achievement, it provides a list of goals.

How to implement a new system?

First off I want to say that I am not using my website for any kind of personal gain nor is my interest in starting a new license system in anyway for any kind of personal gain. Hopefully everybody’s seen the freeflyers.com thread and checked out the site. I think that website looks really nice and professional and could be very useful for promoting the new Rebel Freeflyer License system. And in return the Rebel Freeflyer License system would help promote freeflyers.com on a much greater scale, since we can’t promote a nationally recognized license on a website dedicated to one particular state. If the freefly community is interested in a new system and okay with me using freeflyers.com as the official website for it, then I will in-turn, turn freeflyers.com into a national freeflying site instead of one dedicated just to Texas. I talked to Dan and he said it really wouldn’t be all that hard. The hard stuff is mostly already done. Of course he would have to be compensated for his time but it wouldn’t be much for just one person to pay. A representative from each state on the site would have ability to administrate and make changes. But that is only if the freefly community would be okay with me volunteering to keep track of everything. Otherwise I like the site like it is, dedicated to Texas. And I’m currently using the site to promote and get the word out about the freefly scene in Texas in hope that more people will come visit us. Florida and Arizona aren’t the only places to go in the winter.

Administering the licenses would be fairly simple. One person or organization keeps track of the records (myself). A record will be kept and constantly updated of those that qualify for license on Freeflyers.com. A small number of advanced freeflyers in each state or region would be authorized to give the test. (requirements for test and ballmaster will be discussed in separate thread.) A list of those authorized would be on the website a side of the list of license holders. The number of authorized test givers will not be limited to a very small number of people so that they can capitalize on it. The number of test givers for a given area will be small enough to keep the system simple and large enough to make the test readily available pretty much anywhere. After a freeflyer meets the requirements for a particular test, the coach or ballmaster sends me a short application with small photo of freeflyer for I.D., plus a very reasonable fee for postage and handling and cost of materials. I in turn file the application, add the persons name and other information (if applicable) to the database on freeflyers.com, and make the license. Unless the freeflyer was visiting from another DZ, all licenses will be sent to the coach/ballmaster or dropzone.

The actual license would be NOT numbered, sized to fit in a wallet, laminated with picture ID, cool looking and have the license title such as Rebel Freeflyer Advanced. The back should somehow define the license holders skills such as “This freeflyer has achieved and demonstrated skills that suggest he/she is in control of their flight and safe to themselves and others”. The back should also have the name of the coach/ballmaster that gave the test and date the license is issued. Since the license can’t be signed after it is laminated, my signature would verify that all the information and signatures on the license application are complete and correct. Also since such a high percentage of freeflyers are the ones doing the hook turns it probably wouldn’t hurt to include an emergency contact number or a known allergy such as penicillin.

For a new system to work it has to have support from the local advanced freeflyers at a given DZ. The ones that load organize, are on teams, or serve as role models for the local freefly community. For them to support it they need to see the purpose behind it have a motive for taking part. The best motive is encouragement from the freefly community. A second motive is active participation by administering test. I think the cost for these license tests should be the same as a high dollar coach jump. With 100% of the proceeds after slots and license fee going to the ballmaster or coach, the way it should be. Even though many people complain that the test are too expensive, I believe their real complaint is that all the proceeds go to one entity.

It is obvious by looking at this that this entire proposed new system would pretty much have to be based on an honor system. Since the ballmasters/coaches will be policed only by the freefly community in general, success of the entire system greatly depends on their being honest, following the rules and upholding the requirements for each license and not trying to use the privilege as a primary source of income. And again to make it a success it needs to be accepted, recognized, supported and promoted by us all. This is the hard part, the part that is up to each of us.

What does it cost?

Cost for each license should be the same as a high dollar coach jump. I think $75 would be appropriate. Slots go to dropzone, $5 license fee to recover cost and the rest goes to the coach/ballmaster. The license fees will recover cost for cards, postage and handling, web hosting, laminating rolls or sleeves and lamination machine, which cost between $60 and $400.

I am hoping that discussions between these two threads will lead to a complete and well thought out ruff draft that would be ready to be presented to the freefly community.

Levin
vSCR#17
www.freeflyers.com

[skynole 0]

Dude, like I said in a previous post, I think what you are proposing can only be a positive thing! One question though - maybe I missed it or don't remember reading it - but who would "govern" the ballmasters/coaches? Who will administer their qualifications? Will there be (similiar to USPA) "freeflying I/E's"?

[sssbc99 0]

Hey, whatsup bud...I think that everyone thinks this is a good idea. I am in Southern California and have access to three relatively large dropzones. If you need any help spreading material or anything (even though you probably have other connections down here), let me know. I would be glad to help. Thanks.

[diablopilot 2]

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I think that everyone thinks this is a good idea.

Think again.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[sssbc99 0]

Ok maybe not you guy. But enough people to a point that it would be something that could get further than a discussion on this website.

Edited to add: Diablopilot, why dont you state your major objections rather than a two word response? I am not trying to create any type of conflict here so dont take it the wrong way. I want to hear what you have to say.

[diablopilot 2]

My original post was based on my feeling the over regulation is a bad thing.

I have questions before I comment any more.

First, what restrictions do you propose to place on those who do not get this licence?

Second, how do you intend to respond to violators of said restrictions?

Third, what are the advantages to this program over a mentorship based program at individual DZ's?

Fourth, why? What is the perceived need for this program?

And finaly, what does the average 1 weekend a month skydiver get out of this? How about the 7 day a week skydiver?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Levin 0]

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My original post was based on my feeling the over regulation is a bad thing.

I have to agree. But when does it become over regulation? In my view, if a system is put in place and it succeeds thru voluntary participation then it is self regulation. When a governing body, typically with less knowledge about subject/situation, puts a system in place and makes it law then this is over regulation.

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First, what restrictions do you propose to place on those who do not get this licence?

none, particpation is strictly voluntary.

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Second, how do you intend to respond to violators of said restrictions?

the only persons that would be in a position to break rules would be the coaches/ballmasters in which case the would loose their privilage to administer test.

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Third, what are the advantages to this program over a mentorship based program at individual DZ's?

mentorship based programs vary from dz to dz. a license program such as this would be constant across all dz's. This program would be more versatile and would likely gain wider acceptance.

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Fourth, why? What is the perceived need for this program?

i think i covered this question in the first 1/2 of the initial post for this thread. After reading again, let me know if the reasons do not sound sufficient, if i've left something out or if i need to try and elaborate more.

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And finaly, what does the average 1 weekend a month skydiver get out of this? How about the 7 day a week skydiver?

the one weekend a month skydiver would benefit from what i wrote in the first 1/2 of the initial post to this thread. for example at a major dropzone this skydiver would likely recognize less faces and be recognized less. their skills will be in question and they will question the skills of others since they are not around often enough to know the skills of everybody. A license serving as a quick reference of skill would benefit everyone in this situation. especially if this skydiver is visiting another dropzone. we also have to keep in mind that this skydiver, unless they can already freefly, likely does not stay current enough to make much progression. Thus the goals that this system sets will only benefit this skydiver to the degree that they place value in them.In final answer, overall this skydiver would be unaffected by such a system.

The 7 day a week skydiver makes 800 to 1200 jumps a year. The benefits to this skydiver would likely be in the form of administering test and/or load organizing. For the most part this skydiver would be unaffected by such a system.

Levin
vSCR#17
www.freeflyers.com

[diablopilot 2]

Thank you for the reply. After re-reading your original post I do find some added insight into the answers to my questions.

I am still not really in favor of it, but I guess i am not against it. It sounds like a tool to determine who should jump with whom. I believe that is one of the things getting to know fellow jumpers is about. If I want to make a freefly jump with someone I've never heard of I'll go do a small way, or upright only jump. Before that I'm sure to find out about their history in the sport, and I usually can smell a BS artist a mile away.

There are plenty of USPA D licence holders out there that I don't feel safe jumping with. Should I because they hold a D licence.

I guess the big thing that I missed or didn't get the full impresion of is that it would be a 100% voluntary. Good luck.

Another question: Is this different (signifigantly) from the old AD program?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Vertifly 0]

I don't get the impression that this is intended to restrict jumpers from flying with one-another. In foresight, it appears as though it would be meant as a "tool", rather, a method of determining:

1) What kind of planned dives that you will be to prepare someone (with less experience) for before a skydive

2) Organizing two-ways, medium-ways, or big-ways depending on sizes of groups.

3) On more experienced dives, you can determine a better (slot-perfect) skydive depending on versatility level. And who to put in the base is just as important.

4) ...and I think more...

There are two ways to perceive the Rebel Freefly System. I mean, is the glass half full or empty?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that any change in the current method (if there is one), compared a method that involves management is going to agree with everyone.

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(1) I believe that is one of the things getting to know fellow jumpers is about.

(2) If I want to make a freefly jump with someone I've never heard of I'll go do a small way, or upright only jump.

I agree with the first sentence, but not the second one. For #1, I can only see the license as a facilitator of getting people together. It isn't as though we are going to refuse jumping with people who don't have a license. I'd never do that. If managed properly, the (state) representatives at each DZ will make sure that segregation is avoided. the totally.

Dude, #2... What is that all about? We do "small ways" ALL the time at our DZ. People are always jumping with different people, on different size jumps (two/three/four/even six-ways). If this isn't happening anywhere else, I would say this license is precisely what we need to get people jumping together MORE.

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Is this different (significantly) from the old AD program?

The answer to this question could be seen in the previous post here, http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=642285;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread. You'll be able to see how this idea has a much different objective than the AD system. The goal of previous licenses has been to focus on a group of skilled flyers in hopes of bringing them together at competitions across the country. The problem this goal is that it benefits very few people, both, for people to improve freefly skills the sport and financially.

It is possible that Levin has more generous objectives here. I'm not saying that this is philanthropy here. But we have discussed this in that post above. Hopefully, in the end, this is for the sake of safety, speeded improvement, a semi-universal and common knowledge of freefly levels.

Blue Sky's

[WrongWay 0]

I find all the info here very informative, original, and cost-effective. Let's get this ball rolling.

Perhaps you should post the finalized dive flow for each level of the license.........

Oh, and I like the name, something tells me I know the origin, but not sure.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[mikecwitts 0]

okay good idea but you're over thinking it. just take olavs rules word for word. take you're best most respected flyers that you know to judge the videos that people send in of them doing the test. then post them on you're website and be done with it. the only thing wrong with the a.d. is that people can only take them by like five people. then let anyone who has filmed the "c" be a dz representitive.
also you'll need to change the name because "Rebel" is, no offense, stupid sounding.

[Levin 0]

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Perhaps you should post the finalized dive flow for each level of the license.........

The dive flows for each level of the license might be posted as early as wednesday or as late as next tuesday. That post will also propose requirements for coaches/ballmasters as well as any other details that pertain to the tests. The actual test are what's going to make or break the idea. So before we can get the ball rolling this part has to be well thought out.

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Oh, and I like the name, something tells me I know the origin, but not sure.

Ramon coined the term Rebel Freeflyers. He had an idea similar to this last year. Even though I was in favor of it, at the time I felt most confortable on the sidelines and declined to take an active role. The idea was quickly forgotten once the summer season got into full swing.

Levin
vSCR#17
www.freeflyers.com

[Levin 0]

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okay good idea but you're over thinking it.

At a first glance, I imagine it appears I am “over thinking” this. Those that have read both the threads and understand the scope of what I’m proposing know that I am giving this exactly the amount of thought it needs to make it a success. Just as it appears you have given your plan exactly the amount of thought it needs.

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just take olavs rules word for word.

1. The AD system is Olav’s. To use the exact wording of his test as part of an overhaul by someone other than himself resulting in a new system would be totally inappropriate.
2. That is exactly what I did. I took that system word for word, analyzed it, recognized the flaws and proposed a new system that addressed those flaws with the best possible changes.

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just take olavs rules word for word. take you're best most respected flyers that you know to judge the videos that people send in of them doing the test. then post them on you're website and be done with it.

Again the AD system is Olav’s. For me to take over his record keeping would be out of line and inappropriate. First off, this suggestion does not address who can give the test; which is relevant to safety. Mailing in video of every test would require a lot of postage and a lot of tapes to dispose of. Not everyone keeps their tapes clean, especially vcr tapes. Requiring video of every test will wear my video equipment out prematurely. The best most respected flyers I know do not have time to commit to sitting around judging videos all day. Neither do I. Not sure if you meant post the videos or just the names. The videos would require a lot of server space and a huge hosting bill.

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and be done with it

This comment sounds as if you feel what you have proposed would be an inconvenience or a chore.

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the only thing wrong with the a.d. is that people can only take them by like five people.

I agree that geographical unavailability is one of the biggest flaws in the system. And often the few people that can give the test are together in one area. But that is not the only flaw in the system. For starters the AD system serves the interest of one person and a minority of freeflyers instead of serving the best interest of the entire freeflying community. The objective of the AD system is to determine who’s ready for advanced skydives and as a ticket to enter the spacegames. Test availability is restricted in an effort to keep 100% of the procedes going to one entity. It does not offer goals for those that are most goal oriented; the majority of freeflyers struggling on the intial learning curve. The requirements are insufficient for the level of skill the ADA suggest one possesses. Overall the system has become obsolete.

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then let anyone who has filmed the "c" be a dz representative

you may not be aware but the “c” requires two ballmasters so that would be two representatives. Since you are assigned a ball, the skills required are no more than those required to “film” (ballmaster) an “a”. Personally I see no need for a skills test that uses 2 balls.

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also you'll need to change the name because "Rebel" is, no offense, stupid sounding.

Even though it’s of lesser importance, the system needs to have a good name to catch on. Although “under thought” this is the kind of feedback I am looking for. But you kind of left me hanging. You would suggest changing the name to….what?

The only way to go about change is a with a completely new system for a couple of reasons. One, the AD system belongs to Olav and any attempt to manipulate or in-part take control of his system without his consent is wrong. Two, the short comings of the AD system are too many to warrant anything less than a new system. So, no offense, but your plan sounds like a wet band-aid.

Levin
vSCR#17
www.freeflyers.com

[WrongWay 0]

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the only thing wrong with the a.d. is that people can only take them by like five people.

I agree that geographical unavailability is one of the biggest flaws in the system. And often the few people that can give the test are together in one area. But that is not the only flaw in the system. For starters the AD system serves the interest of one person and a minority of freeflyers instead of serving the best interest of the entire freeflying community. The objective of the AD system is to determine who’s ready for advanced skydives and as a ticket to enter the spacegames. Test availability is restricted in an effort to keep 100% of the procedes going to one entity. It does not offer goals for those that are most goal oriented; the majority of freeflyers struggling on the intial learning curve. The requirements are insufficient for the level of skill the ADA suggest one possesses.

Not to mention the AD tests are solely based on the head down position, whereas freefly, by definition, is flying on EVERY axis. The AD tests are flawed by the fact that a freefly test should test ALL aspects of freeflying (i.e. sit, stand, and hd) whereas it only tests one aspect. It'd be great if they just called the AD the "ISABO" Inverted Stamp of Approval By Olav.

Anyway (and yes I know by my last comment I'm going against this, but I'm just joking and being a smartass) I think from now on it'd be a good idea to leave Olav, the AD test and anything to do with these two subjects OUT of this thread. My reasoning is that the RF is a NEW freefly license system. It is not a variation of the AD, nor is it designed to challenge or to be compared to the AD. It is being proposed because freefly is in need of a new system to be readily available to ALL freeflyers, ANYWHERE, and covering ALL aspects of freefly. Olav has nothing to do with this system, so I think we should leave his name out of it. Just my .02, nothin but love for the AD holders.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[Vertifly 0]

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also you'll need to change the name because "Rebel" is, no offense, stupid sounding.

I can't say that I disagree with this. Perhaps we can come up with an improved name here...

[Levin 0]

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I can't say that I disagree with this. Perhaps we can come up with an improved name here...

I've kinda got Rebel Freeflyer grilled in my head so I don't know how helpful I will be in trying to think of something better. I'm totally up for suggestions. Maybe not even something final. Just some ideas we can think about and vote on in a couple of weeks. That would leave plenty of time to make sure we had the best name.

Levin
vSCR#17
www.freeflyers.com

[freeflydrew 0]

How about the Universal Freefly License...

[jsyslo 0]

..or Patriot Freefly License...

Regardless of what its called, Im all for the advancement of Freeflying. It should never be prohibitive to non members, nor manditory in any way. But I can certainly see the value in your plan. I wish you the best of luck, FREEFLY RULES!!!!!

Blue Skies!

[Vertifly 0]

How about something with "VRW" in it?

Like VRW Patriot License, the VRWL, or the Universal VRW license.

This way, we avoid using "Freefly" also.

[sssbc99 0]

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How about something with "VRW" in it?

Like VRW Patriot License, the VRWL, or the Universal VRW license.

This way, we avoid using "Freefly" also.

This is a great point...not including anything, especially a TM, from the AD system.

[jsyslo 0]

Excellent suggestion, VRWL is perfect. Free-frizzle my Fly-nizzle, biotch!! :)

Blue Skies!

[Levin 0]

There have been some good suggestions for names. I like universal freefly the best, but it seems the majority seem to perfer something along the lines of VRW. IMO, VRW by definition narrows the scope of the licenses. But we will go with whatever the majority perfers. I don't think there would be anything wrong with using freefly in the title. I think if a certain someone were to try and sue me over that it would be there own undoing. I was able to read all the post before they disappeared. Please don't get mad at the moderators. I asked them to make sure this stays on track when I first posted it. As far as license requirements, still working on that. At the moment it looks like two categories. One category has 3 licenses. It deals with safety, bigway skills and uses a spaceball. The other category will include 4 maybe 5 licenses, does not use a spaceball and is focused towards two-way freeflying. I have to be careful that the requirements are the best ones possible, being realistic and attainable and make sure they follow along a general learning curve. As soon as I'm done I will get some second opinions and then post them here. Hopefully sometime next week.

Levin
vSCS#3
www.freeflyers.com

[SublimeBreeze 0]

I have a suggestion. I am a new skydiver and one of my main interests is freeflying. It is an artform that I wish to master. I really like this idea of voluntary license system. One thing, What about making it a requirement to help a newbie to get to the next level or to be a tester. Just a thought, all of you sound like you want to advance the sport, I think the best way to advance the sport is to get more involvement with people that have no experience and have a burning desire to learn. Jump #13 attempted sitfly, spent most of my time on my back. more too come, Just got my license and im buying some freefly friendly gear!

Blue Skies

Peace

Sean

Sean
Sean In Thailand

[WrongWay 0]

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I have a suggestion. I am a new skydiver and one of my main interests is freeflying. It is an artform that I wish to master. I really like this idea of voluntary license system. One thing, What about making it a requirement to help a newbie to get to the next level or to be a tester. Just a thought, all of you sound like you want to advance the sport, I think the best way to advance the sport is to get more involvement with people that have no experience and have a burning desire to learn. Jump #13 attempted sitfly, spent most of my time on my back. more too come, Just got my license and im buying some freefly friendly gear!

Blue Skies

Peace

Sean

I understand your point completely, and I agree that the advancement of the sport strongly revolves around the newbies, as they will one day be the next freefly generation. But, there are several issues that would come up if this were the case.

First, even some of the greatest freeflyers in the world can be horrible coaches and teachers. Some people just get it themselves, but have no teaching skills. These licenses are based on our OWN flying skills and safety we provide in the skydive by being a safe, proficient flyer.

Second, let's say for instance the freeflyer is a wonderful teacher, but the student he's trying to "progress" is not a good student. (ie he doesn't listen, or just doesn't get it.) I know several AFF instuctors who were amazing at what they did, but the students just "didn't get it". Now we have a wonderful flyer who can't get his license just cuz some student wasn't ready to get off his belly.

We get these licenses for ourselves, to prove that we are safe, proficient flyers. But I agree that at some point (not today, but maybe after the initial licenses are put into effect) there needs to be a test for coaching. Better yet, there needs to be a few licenses for it. For example, one for head up flying, one for head down, and one for advanced two way maneuvers.

You have a good idea, and it should be considered for a separate license, but not in the original ones stated by the poster. Thanks for the input!!

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[WrongWay 0]

Hey, what happened to this thread?? Is this still being worked on? Any feedback or updates to be posted???

This is a great idea, and I'd hate to see it die out....

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.