What if you were Olav??

[Vertifly 0]

Somebody MODERATE please. This belongs (borderline) in the "Talk Back" forum. Sheesh.

[Levin 0]

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Why does freeflying need a "license" ?

The first and most important question regarding this issue. I am fixing to start the first of 2 or 3 threads to address and further discuss the possibility of a new license. Breaking it down into different topics will hopefully keep things more orderly and constructive.

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RW, CRW, these don't require a license.

I think CRW is to unique in itself to make a good comparison. RW is a lot the opposite of freeflying. Learning curves for example. The basics of RW and all of it’s first milestones are easily learned. New skydivers with only 50 or 100 jumps can be expected to be responsible for themselves in freefall and safe to jump with others. This discipline starts out easy and gets harder. Once the basics are learned, further accomplishment is made thru fine tuning and accelerating precise movements relative to and in conjunction with a group of others. The realm of RW is bound by the limited nature of the discipline. Or in other words, “Anything is possible” does not apply. And there are other reasons, but I think the ones I’ve stated make a good enough argument.

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Licenses are basic. Advanced stuff takes ratings.
AFF rating. SL/I Rating. Pro Rating.

And ratings are for instructing. Freefly coaching is regulated by reputation, not USPA. A rating says that one is responsible for the safety of another. A freefly license should show that one is responsible for themselves.

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But there's no rating for RW. There's not even any qualification to be an RW organizer. Or CRW, who says who can do that or who can teach it? It's technical and dangerous, but it seems to be pretty self regulating. Same with Skysurf, Freestyle, Style, Canopy Swooping.

Although the requirements for an AFF rating may not be a 15 point 4-way, the rating can be perceived as a measure of one’s skill. RW is the entry level discipline in skydiving. All these AFF instructors had to get there skills somewhere. CRW, again, is imo to unique for a good comparison. As far as the other disciplines here in Houston, I know of 2 skysurfers, 1 freestylist and a couple or 3 stylist. So of course they are easily self regulated. Here those disciplines are almost extinct. Canopy Swooping may not be regulated now but you can bet some kind of regulation is going to happen someday if the numbers of high speed landing accidents does not cease. If not by Jim Slaton, then by the USPA.

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And more important than the skill level for the testees, the ratings for the testers is even more critical.

An AD A is not a good candidate to be a ballmaster, an AD B is much more likely. But that's just being a ballmaster for a fun jump. Who can actually administer the tests?

Your suggestions are good. A controlled carve around the ball is an important skill. As it is now, one can pass the AD A with inadvertent orbiting around the ball. (I did - even though my test was not "legal")

Another thing that had come up as a suggestion in the early days of the test is controlled verticals, in essence an eagle with the ball.

Catching the ball in a head up position - a highly advanced maneuver - well worth demonstrating.

One handed versus two handed grabs is another distinction. Keeping in mind that it's a lot easier with the dominant hand. One should be able to do both, in both head up and head down.

The second of the threads regarding this issue will discuss license requirements and who should administer the test.

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Unfortunately, Olav didn't seem to be interested in giving away control of this system. This is a significant part of what alienated him from much of the highly experienced freefly community at the time. As members of his inner circle branched off to do their own things it became questionable as to whether they were authorized any longer to perform the A tests.

In fact, if you look at the wording of his "license" it really only gives you a "license" to fly with HIS "spaceball" in HIS "spacegames"
Ball jumps elsewhere are not condoned or authorized.

As I’ve said in another thread. There is nothing wrong with what Olav did. The AD system, like you said, is his. His system is controversial because it does not meet all of the needs and wants of the freeflying community. In future threads I hope that we can leave his name out of this as much as possible.

Levin
vSCS#3
www.freeflyers.com

[Levin 0]

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Why is it that people in this sport seem to be so dead set on measuring themselves against other people?

I really don’t see the whole sport as being like that. Only it’s 3 favorite disciplines: canopy swooping, freeflying and RW. Speed skydiving could probably make a good 4th but it’s just starting to catch on over here. IMO, if wingsuits ever took off like freeflying, that discipline could potentially add a whole new level of degree to your question. Maybe all this is because there are 100’s of belly flyers at the DZ and only so many slots on the bigways. Or in the case of freeflying, perceived elite since there is rarely enough people present that can do them. In freeflying I think the biggest reason is the lengthy duration of the initial learning curve which can span a few years. I think at this stage measuring ourselves against others (or those that are better) is a positive thing. It gives us goals. Provides assurance that the time and money spent improving will pay off. It provides a motivation for staying the path of continuing to better ourselves. And it gives us sight about what might be attainable tomorrow and what might be attainable years down the road.

The answer to your question is also, in part, a result of the very competitive nature of these disciplines and ourselves. It’s because of these competitive natures that a status is formed when measuring ourselves against those with lesser skills. We see it in the form of sky goda and low number addictions. I think this is what you meant in regard to your question

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It seems to me that many skydivers are more interested in having some sort of badge to show off, or conversation piece when they are at a new dropzone, or another little # to tack on to the end of their internet post....
Why don't people focus more on jumping for themselves and for personal accomplishment than for measuring their cocks against the next guy?

The new freefly licenses I am proposing will not use a numbering system.

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Now, before you guys unleash on me, know that I am not pointing fingers nor accusing any of you guys for being egotistical dudes..On the contrary I believe that many of you have good ideas and are genuinely interested in developing our discipline further.....
But any of you who are experienced flyers know exactly what I am talking about.....
All you have to do is go to a dropzone and see the ego leaking out of every pore of many jumpers...

I think this is a disease, unfortunately which has no cure.....

The cure is time. Soon, like RW, talent will become a dime a dozen. Status based on skills will carry little weight and low numbers will be a reflection of old age.

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I just say jump as best you can, and let the tough skydives prove who is worth their salt!

Or in the event of a collision and/or fatality, who shouldn't have been on the skydive. In such a case, a freefly license system may have helped the load organizer to have done a better job.

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ok...let the attacks begin...

No need for attacks because somehow we all know when and which threads should be taken seriously and not veered off topic.

Levin
vSCR#17
www.freeflyers.com

edit: add 2nd to last quote and reply. i type much of my post in word.doc and copy over. forgot part.
2nd edit: edited to add 1st edit

[78RATS 0]

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low numbers will be a reflection of old age

Hey - no personal attacks

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[skynole 0]

Just wanted to say that I've enjoyed reading this thread and Levin and all you guys are on the right track. With freeflying being a mainstream disclipline nowdays, I say the pros definitely outway the cons in what you guys are discussing...especially in the name safety. Progression is a positive thing! Keep the wheels turning...

[apoil 0]

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I think CRW is to unique in itself to make a good comparison. RW is a lot the opposite of freeflying. Learning curves for example.

Your points regarding the lack of need for licenses in other disciplines are well thought out.

I'd like point out though, that in Australia, the Star Crest is taken as something of an RW license. You can't be on an 8 way or larger until you have your starcrest because it demonstrates your ability to dock on an 8 way without taking it out. Star Crest loads are organized all the time for those that are ready for it.

I was almost invited on a night formation load, but I didn't have my night star crest and was ineligible.

[mags 0]

Right on...Good answers.

C