Video Camera and Helmet

[Greyskyy 0]

New to the sport of skydiving! Still an AFF student actually, but looking to purchase a helmet and camera combo that will work for me. I was a paratrooper, so I am not exactly a newbie although the disiplines are quite different.

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks,

[NWFlyer 2]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3033162

Start with that thread. Focus on the questions that discuss why having 200+ jumps is a good idea.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[rhys 0]

Quote

http://www.dropzone.com/...rum.cgi?post=3033162

Start with that thread. Focus on the questions that discuss why having 200+ jumps is a good idea.

That post is arrogant in the sense that it assumes the reader is in the USA and subject to USA recommendations, and that the poster assumes the USA rules and recommendations are the same for everybody.

NZ rules are different, 100 jumps for camera...

Each country has its own rules and recommendations.

The OP has not set a location. This is not DZ.comUSA

it is an international forum, originating in South Africa.

The rules there are also different to the USA.

The best advice for the OP from my point of view is to wait and see what is happening when the time comes to get equipment, technology is changing rapidly, and whether you get first 1-200 jumps in 6-12 months or3-4 years the products on offer will be different to now.


Or the products available now will be much less expensive. Whatever way you look at it, wait until you are ready, then do your research.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[pilotdave 0]

The US is far less restrictive. There are NO RULES for jump numbers. But RECOMMENDATIONS apply to everybody, everywhere in the world. I'd hope that NZ jumpers with 100 jumps are well aware that the USPA and many, many jumpers all over the world believe 200 jumps is a recommended minimum number of jumps before considering adding a camera. Rule or not, it's important information. You are welcome to disagree with that recommendation, but it's no less valid in kenya as it is in kentucky.

That thread is not USPA doctrine anyway. It's dropzone.com doctrine. I recommend writing a rebuttal to it if you believe it is wrong.

Dave

[DSE 3]

In the US, most of the things people consider "rules" are actually recommendations. BSR's don't address cameras in any manner.

The recommendations are written from decades of experience, hundreds of thousands of jumps, and common sense.

While you might not agree (curious NZ has a rule where we don't), many countries do indeed follow the USPA recommendations, just as USPA examines, and in some cases adopts standards, recommendations, and rules from around the world.
Dropzones can make their own rules so long as they don't violate FAA laws. If they're a USPA GM, then they must observe the USPA BSR's (which many countries have adopted to one extent or another).
And, the OP is in the USA and will likely be jumping at a USPA dropzone.

[rhys 0]

we have 3 different sets of rules in NZ, there are many countries other than the USA, and many of them read these forums.

My point is that your post assumes everybody is using USPA recommendations.

You could have instructed them to look up the recommendations pertaining to them by their licensing organisation.

That would have been more appropriate.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[DSE 3]

Quote

we have 3 different sets of rules in NZ, there are many countries other than the USA, and many of them read these forums.

My point is that your post assumes everybody is using USPA recommendations.

It is small minded to assume that there is no other way.

It is small-minded to not recognize that;
-As the author of the post, I'm a USPA member, and those are the only rules I'm familiar with.
-I'm under no obligation to seek out the "rules" "recommendations" or "general practices" of any organized body.

If you can get an official from the NZ skydiving organizations contact me with info, I'll be very happy to post the information (as I will for any organized body).

And that said, we're not going to debate the merits of your opinion vs those of the USPA in this forum. You've got plenty of others in which you get enough bandwidth on the subject.

[velvetjo 0]

If you do jump a camera with less than 200 jumps, please do it at Rhys' DZ. Cheers, mate!

Lance

[rhys 0]

Quote

It is small-minded to not recognize that;
-As the author of the post, I'm a USPA member, and those are the only rules I'm familiar with.
-I'm under no obligation to seek out the "rules" "recommendations" or "general practices" of any organized body.

Go back a couple of posts and you will see where I suggested a solution.

There is no need to confuse everybody with 'somebody else's rules(recommendations)'

Just think about everybody, when you moderate an international forum.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

Quote

If you do jump a camera with less than 200 jumps, please do it at Rhys' DZ. Cheers, mate!

The uncanny paradox is that I am under the NZSA, which has a rule for a C license for camera, so you actually need 200 jumps to jump camera at my DZ.

'Other' DZ's in NZ allow jumpers to use cameras at 100 jumps.

Under the NZPIA and ParaNZ.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[mccordia 73]

Pointing people to a set of sane recommendations that promote safety (regardless of which organisation issued them) seems anything but arrogant. There's always a DZ or organisation that has a lower standard or recommendation than the one 99% of the experienced flyers agree on...

Id rather be on the 'arrogant' safe side and stick with the above mentioned standard..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[rhys 0]

Quote

There's always a DZ or organisation that has a lower standard or recommendation than the one 99% of the experienced flyers agree on...

So you truly beleive 99% of experienced flyers waited until they had 200 jumps before jumping with a camera and 500 jumps before jumping with a tandem...

How are the unicorns and fairies in that dreamworld of yours.

How many fatalities has there been at DZ's under your organisation to date? We have had one, it was last century, and it was gear failure.... (broken tandem riser). We do well over 100,000 jumps per year. and camera people are introduced to tandems at about 200 jumps.

So tell me how many fatalities do you think have occured at dz's under you much safer and more appropriate guidelines?

And how many at ours?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[mccordia 73]

I didnt say 99% waited. I do know most of them (with the added perks of hindsight) do preach this very thing, and tend to mention being nowhere near ready when they started.

But YouTube fame outweighs safety and sanity for the new and hip...and there's always someone willing to preach what they want to hear..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[rhys 0]

Quote

I didnt say 99% waited. I do know most of them (with the added perks of hindsight) do preach this very thing, and tend to mention being nowhere near ready when they started.

Answer the question, how many fatalities have occured t USPA dz's this century and haw many have happened in NZ...

I can tell you the answer to the NZ question;

NIL, nothing, NADA, not one.
Heck I'l even answer the USA question

2004 - 23 fatalities
2005 - 27 fatalities
2006 - 21 fatalities
2007 - 20 fatalities
2008 - 32 fatalities
2009 - 19 fatalities
2010 - 20 fatalities so far...

Now even if you take into consideration the difference in population, number of DZ's and the number of sport jumpers with low time experience, no matter which way you look at it, we have had NO fatialities in that time and you have had over 200 since the turn of the century.

Heck the last time your country did not have a fatility was 1974.A good year that one I was born that year.

If they say rules are written in blood, maybe you guys need the rules and we don't.

I really do not think that is the case but, the problem does not lie with a jump number, it lies with lack of adequate supervision.

Guidelines are nothing, without supervision.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[mccordia 73]

Quote

your country

You do know Im Dutch and that Holland isnt located in the USA?

That aside, maybe the USA stats have something to do with the (percentage wise) MANY more (non tandem) jumps made there, by half the worlds population. Most of the accidents you mention, are also not related to the subject we are discussing here.

Regardles of where and how accidents happen (and lumping all accidents into one catagory also isnt the most sceintific approach), it shows there is a need for better training, teaching and monitoring.

Quote

the problem does not lie with a jump number, it lies with lack of adequate supervision.

100% agreed there. And by what rules do you suggest this supervising works...? Id love to see you put that on paper and submit it to every organisation worldwide. The 200 jump rule isnt failsafe..but its better than nothing, and people complaining but not presenting real-world solutions. Similar to the 200 jump rule for wingsuit flying, its a basic rule/recommendation that gives someone a reasonable amount of exposure to the sport where he/she COULD have learnt the essential skills. It doesnt mean they have.

I would not want to see what no rules on the subject would lead to in terms of youtube heroes strapping cameras onto every appendage they can make, manufacture or find from jump #1.

You are turning this into some 'I/we are better than you' ego thing, where'as just ignoring the fact that it sais USPA on the letterhead, and looking at the actual recommendations would make much more sense.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[cpoxon 0]

Quote

Quote

I didnt say 99% waited. I do know most of them (with the added perks of hindsight) do preach this very thing, and tend to mention being nowhere near ready when they started.

Answer the question, how many fatalities have occured t USPA dz's this century and haw many have happened in NZ...

I can tell you the answer to the NZ question;

NIL, nothing, NADA, not one.

3 by my records

Quote

Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL? Dropzone.com Report Dropzone.com Discussion
12/28/2001 Bridge Pa, New Zealand LAND? 46 ?/?
Description: No further information available at this time. Anyone?
Lessons:

Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL? Dropzone.com Report Dropzone.com Discussion
2/13/2006 Skydive Abel Tasman, New Zealand MED 69 / 173 #2075194
DropZone.com Description: "During a student jump the student became unresponsive in freefall and the instructor deployed for him. The former military paratrooper had just recently taken up skydiving. After the instructor deployed him, he proceded under a slow spiral until he clipped a building and then was pronounced dead by medics."
Lessons:

Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL? Dropzone.com Report Dropzone.com Discussion
2/3/2007 Skydive Auckland, New Zealand LAND 32 1500 ?/? 234 #2652036
DropZone.com Description: Jumper was flying his canopy in for landing then it appears the canopy may have collapsed in turbulence during a speed inducing turn. More details are needed for this incident.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[rhys 0]

Quote

You do know Im Dutch and that Holland isnt located in the USA?

My bad, I apologise for the oversight.

Your country had had about 6 fatalities in that time however.

Quote

You are turning this into some 'I/we are better than you' ego thing, where'as just ignoring the fact that it sais USPA on the letterhead, and looking at the actual recommendations would make much more sense.

I am sticking to my point that this is not a USA, USPA or a NZ thread or website, it is an international website and the information given should be suitable for everyone.

People have insinuated that the rules I learned by are inferior and less safe, yet millions of jumps have been performed under these guidelnes without a single fatality. The safety record from NZ is surprisingly good for the amount of jumps that are performed here.

Most fatalities are in fact experienced jumpers and could gave been avoided with a little added supervision, not more rules.
That is my point.

BTW, most of the dutch fatalities were low turns, do you think there is room for improvement in your systems in regards to that?

I don't want to move the point away from camera jumps, but that was an interesting observation.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

That is right. and I stand corrected. Again

My search did not come up with those, but now I remember them.

1 Is nothing (why is that even there?)

2 was a heart attack.

and the last was turbulence and a turn, .

Still, my point stands.

Contrary to what many here believe, there is nothing to say the recommendation of addind a camera at 100 jumps with adequate supervision is less than adequate if the rules or reccomendations allow it.

So when anybody that is interested in knowing when they are ready to jump a camera, they should consult their local liciencing organisation rather than listening to those here that think their way is the only way.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[mccordia 73]

I dont see why you lump all US accidents together, yet here 'excuse' for the ones in your own country?

I also fail to see the logic you apply on accidents.
Do accidents need a fatal outcome to 'count'?

If 'my country' has no fatal accidents, but 50% of the jumpers have fractured legs, spines and necks, according to your logic its safer. As there are less fatal accidents.

If you take the different sizes of the jumper population, and funjumpers vs tandems/tourism into account, NZ will probably rate the same, or better or worse as any other country in the world when it comes to safety.

Regardless of organisation, the general recommendations are there for a reason. The chances of somebody having experienced the amount of exposure to the sport in an active manner at 200 jumps is far bigger than 100.

Granted, you can throw 500 AFF students out of an airplane, and according to your logic, that shows its safe. But someone else could just have 3, and have accidents on all 3.

More experience AND guidence is needed.
But the guidence often fails when people ignore it, because they dont like how the rules 'limit' them.
Regardless of the label on any type of recommendation. The fact that its an organisation you dont agree with (apperantly) shouldnt detract from the basic reason its there.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[dgskydive 0]

Lots of past Paratroopers on here. Including myself. You are a newbie. Your S/L skills do not equate to freefall. Dont push it and think that you are gonna be bullet proof.

Dont start thinking about shooting video yet. Seriously.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

Quote

That post is arrogant in the sense that it assumes the reader is in the USA and subject to USA recommendations, and that the poster assumes the USA rules and recommendations are the same for everybody.

NZ rules are different, 100 jumps for camera...

Each country has its own rules and recommendations.

The OP has not set a location. This is not DZ.comUSA

it is an international forum, originating in South Africa.

The rules there are also different to the USA.

The best advice for the OP from my point of view is to wait and see what is happening when the time comes to get equipment, technology is changing rapidly, and whether you get first 1-200 jumps in 6-12 months or3-4 years the products on offer will be different to now.


Or the products available now will be much less expensive. Whatever way you look at it, wait until you are ready, then do your research.

Breathe man. Your getting worked up over nothing really. SO she sent him recommendations for the USPA. You act like she just committed a hangin offense.

Dom

[Fast 0]

Quote

That is right. and I stand corrected. Again

My search did not come up with those, but now I remember them.

1 Is nothing (why is that even there?)

2 was a heart attack.

and the last was turbulence and a turn, .

Still, my point stands.

Contrary to what many here believe, there is nothing to say the recommendation of addind a camera at 100 jumps with adequate supervision is less than adequate if the rules or recommendations allow it.

So when anybody that is interested in knowing when they are ready to jump a camera, they should consult their local licensing organization rather than listening to those here that think their way is the only way.

Why should anyone listen to you, when you're already demonstrating on here a disregard for safety. I understand the distinction between what people do in reality and what people suggest doing on here. There are reasons why that works though and being responsible with a person you have never seen personally means taking the route down the safer side of the equation.

I feel like you're on some kind of crusade to bash anyone who tries to stick to basic recommendations. The internet isn't the place to tell johnny hotrod (no reference to original poster) to go out and rip it up. Trust me he is gonna do that all on his own.

---------------------


Anyways......

It was mentioned here already once, but,... at the point you're at, buying a camera isn't a good idea. Spend the money on jumps and when it gets closer to the point that you are actually going to need the camera, be that 100, 200 or whatever recommendation you follow, buy it then. The camera's change yearly and who knows when you're gonna be ready.

My other advice is to "slow down" cause if you think skydiving is cool, you're gonna have to adjust to that a bit. Everyone that I see who gets into this sport with the grand ambition of doing everything on day 1 either gets hurt or quits cause they can't wingsuit on jump 10. Skydiving is different because every jump only gets you about a minute of free fall experience and a couple of minutes of canopy. So for every hour or two at the dropzone, you're getting 1-5 minutes of experience depending on how you're looking at it.

There are really amazing things to do in this sport, but you have to have some patience to get there and it's worth it.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[DSE 3]

Thread has been derailed in spite of a warning.
We don't need yet another thread on the subject of why one country's rules are better than another, nor why waiting til 200 jumps is a good idea. Argue about that to your heart's content in General, SC, or Bonfire.
The Ban Hammer is in effect. Take some time off, guys.