hybrid cameras (disabling HDD?)

[Staso 0]

this is not exactly skydiving related, but I thought there might be someone here
who might have an answer to my question.

I have Sony handycam DCR-SR45 hybrid camera. it has an HDD and it also accepts
a memory stick. I can select media for both video and photo.

I'm planning on an expedition next year that will bring me to a very cold and thing air
places that are definitely outside of manufacturer's recommended temperature range.

my concern with this camera that HDD will simply freeze there. so for the coldest part
of the expedition I want to use memory stick exclusively.

I contacted Sony and ask them if there is a way to disable an HDD in the camera and if
selecting memory stick as proffered media for video and photo would effectively do that.
they told me that it's not recommended to use the camera under such conditions. after
I confirmed that I take responsibility for my actions and would like to know the answer,
they still told me that "it's not recommended to use the camera under such conditions".

now I wonder if anyone here has some experience/knowledge with this subject who
can tell me if it would work for me like that or not?

thanks a lot!

--
it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ...
Speed Skydiving Forum

[LouDiamond 1]

Stan, I have not used a HDD camera extensively in the conditions that you mentioned but I have used other devices that had HDDs in them in very extreme environments, both in negative temperatures and altitudes above 25k feet MSL.


A few things that I have learned. HDDs if used occasionally, meaning a few times, in very cold or high altitudes will usually work OK but will eventually fail if you continue to use them. LCD screens will not work and most devices will not power up in very cold climates. This is exaggerated and a sure guarantee to fail if there is a rapid change in the temperature the device is in. As in going from one extreme to another as in cold to colder or cold to hot, like exiting an aircraft or a vehicle to the outside.

HDDs will fail eventually if you continue to subject them to a shock load and or high altitudes for prolonged periods of time. You may get away with it 100 times or it may fail on the first time, I've experienced both cases personally. Batteries are also a weak link in the chain in very cold conditions as sometimes they simply will not work until subjected to a warmer climate. This holds true with any device powered by a battery unless it has specifically been designed for a specific temperature range.


My advice is to use a non HDD camera, use a camera condom/neoprene cover on the camera and try to keep the battery(s) warm/protected from the environment.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Staso 0]

Lou,

Thanks for your quick response.

I'm going to be outside for a month with temperatures ranging from 60F to -20F, but without big
temperature jumps - it's all ambient temperature. Altitude will be up to 23k. I will restrict the use of HDD
during the coldest part, so I think I might be ok.

Batteries are easier - i have two sets, one of them will be on the camera, another one under layers close
to my body so it should stay warm. And I can cycle them if needed.

LCD is a problem and I didn't even think about it. Camera works without the LCD, but filming is almost
impossible without any visual reference. So I guess I should see if i get lucky.

Another issue is if I should keep the camera outside all the time while using it or bring it under my
down jacket and only have it exposed for breif moments when i need it. The problem with the latter
is condesation when it goes back under the jacket.

Not sure if neoprene cover will help since I will be outside all the time without any heat source and
the camera doesn't have its own. So there is no heat to retain.

--
it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ...
Speed Skydiving Forum

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Not sure if neoprene cover will help since I will be outside all the time without any heat source and
the camera doesn't have its own. So there is no heat to retain.

Sometimes simply having the device covered with a sleeve or cover of some kind is enough of a barrier from the elements that it allows it to work. This is especially true in extreme cold and windy environments.

Where are you going/doing if you don't mind me asking?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[DSE 3]

HDD's rarely fail due to temperature shifts. They fail due to air pressure not allowing the heads to float over the discs.
This is why iPods and other HDD devices carry no guarantee at all when used in non-pressurized situations over 3000 meters. Read the warranty on most any HDD device.
LaPaz, Bolivia is well known for failed iPods. Some work, most don't. No one can say why. Bottom line is that you're taking a real risk going above 10K with any HDD device, and you won't have warranty coverage.
LCD's are a different story, and I'll bow to Scott's significantly greater altitude experiences and stories.
That said, a business friend used his iPod/iPhone at an Everest basecamp at 5200 meters, and had no problems at all. He says another person on the trip had an iPod classic that failed first day....
Hitachi has some high altitude-rated HDDs but they haven't found their way into cameras yet. IMO, just avoid HDD altogether when dealing with skydiving.
One exception are the few cameras that park the HDD heads when a card is used for recording. Even then...

BTW, ALL mpeg camcorders generate heat.

[Staso 0]

Quote

Where are you going/doing if you don't mind me asking?

North Col of mount Everest. It's a ridge that connect Everest with its neighboring mountain Changtse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Col

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it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ...
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[Staso 0]

Quote

That said, a business friend used his iPod/iPhone at an Everest basecamp at 5200 meters

that's close to where i'm going :) but i will be 2 camps up from BC - ABC and NC

--
it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ...
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[DSE 3]

The team that did Everest with XDCAM used pocket warmers in specially made sleeves (I think Hoodman or HoodPro made them) that heated the LCD panels from the backside. Heated bra's are available for large format camcorders, although solid state media doesn't need them; I'm not sure they're available for consumer cams.
The guys that could give you a lot of info on cameras and Everest are the DIT guys at BandPro in Burbank, or Peter Gloeggler at BandPro in NYC. They've not only shot a fair amount there, but they've tuned high end cams with consumer taps on them, too.
dunno if that helps.
Were it me, I'd toss a few CX100's in my kit with a stack of chemical warmers, and use neoprene covers to keep the warmth in. Single element lens adapters if necessary for width, and of course a UV and probably a few polarizers in there too, and then just forget it. Carry a few cams in an insulated lunchbag and you're done. But I've never climbed Everest.

[LouDiamond 1]

From my first hand personal experience, the small packet/chemical hand warmers do not work when you start getting above 20k.They just don't work until they get to a lower/warmer altitude/temperature.

A magic number I've found that most manufacturers use for their low end of the operational temperature range is -20. Some don't even go that low, so check the manual.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[antonija 0]

Considering that SSD price is down to manageable level, is it possible to swap HDD for SSD? This would also allow skydivers to use those cameras in freefall...

EDIT: Apparently it works... found this (a bit old but if it worked back then...):

" It Works!!!
Got the package today. TEN MINUTES LATER, I was recording onto the SSD! It is very simple to do the swap. Four screws are all that stands between you and the SR11/SR12 HDD. Remove the cover, gently pull the ZIF cable out of its socket, and then gently slide it into the new SSD as far as it will go. Once it is slid all the way, it is in. You would think that you need to do more to get it to stay in, but you don't. Boot up the camera and see a c:13:02 error flashing. Format the drive and then power down the camera (because the error will still be flashing). Upon reboot, NO ERRORS!

This is a go guys! If you want an SSD camcorder, it can be done!"

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[DSE 3]

Since solid state camcorders are available for less than these other HDD units, would you want to take a kludge into a hostile environment? For the additional cost of the more expensive camcorder plus SSD replacement drive, I'd prefer to have a couple of backup cams, a battery warmer, and deal with that instead.

To the OP, I got considering what we did on the Iditerod, and we did use chemical warmers with booties on batteries. it was -20 and less at night plus windchill.

[antonija 0]

32GB SSD (1.8", ZIF) should run around 100 USD (thats 4 times what CX100 has). 16GB should be even less. If some one already has HDD camcorder this should not be expensive, especially if you're gonna buy equipment to keep you alive at north cole.

All it should take is to open camcorder, take out old HDD and plug in SSD. They come in same form factor, same socket, but with benefit of SSD not being sensitive to temperatures and air pressure changes.

If it doesn't work you can put old HDD back and sell/use SSD somewhere else.

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[DSE 3]

Quote

32GB SSD (1.8", ZIF) should run around 100 USD (thats 4 times what CX100 has). 16GB should be even less. If some one already has HDD camcorder this should not be expensive, especially if you're gonna buy equipment to keep you alive at north cole.

All it should take is to open camcorder, take out old HDD and plug in SSD. They come in same form factor, same socket, but with benefit of SSD not being sensitive to temperatures and air pressure changes.

If it doesn't work you can put old HDD back and sell/use SSD somewhere else.

I get your point. You're missing mine.
CX500 is more expensive than the CX100.
Similar glass, same encoder, no better quality, but twice the price and only major difference are some convenience features (that few would use) and quadruple the recording space.
I'd rather deal with 16 or 32 gig mem sticks and have more cameras than have less camera option and no greater features. For the cost of one CX500, I can carry three CX100's. For the cost and size of one Panasonic HMC 150, I can carry 10 CX100's. It's not just about the cost of the gear, it's about what is available from the market and what the cost per feature benefit is or isn't.

Adding an SSD vs HDD doesn't get you anywhere if there aren't features and durability to support the extra cost. An underwater housing for the CX100 costs twice as much as the camcorder. In that event, I'd have to consider the cost of the camcorder vs the depth required, for example. I'm willing to sacrifice three CX100 camcorders at 9 feet in an Ewa bag vs the cost of a hard house at 10 feet. Cost vs benefit, risk vs reward both come into play when determining crash/high risk cam kits.

[Staso 0]

bring back the thread I started some time ago.

it looks like there are several ways I can go about "removing" regular HDD from my hybrid
camera.

1. replacing HDD with SSD. seems like many people tried that and it worked. some people warn
that it might result in camera being inoperable with costly factory repairs/reset.

cost 32GB $100-$115, 16GB $75

2. CF to ZIF 1.8" adapter ($20) + 32GB CF card ($70) / 16GB CF card ($30)

cost 32GB $90, 16GB $50

3. Sony memory stick pro duo - this is the card that this camera takes and I can set up
the video and pictures to use it as the only media which should eliminate the use of HDD.
ideally I would want to pull the HDD out and leave it at home so it doesn't get damaged. but
I'm afraid that the camera will not work without HDD even if it doesn't record to it. anybody
knows if this is true?

cost 32GB $100, 16GB $40-$50

so it looks like if I decide to go for 16GB (5 hours, 20 mins) it would make sense to go with 2nd
or 3rd option and for 32GB (10 hours 40 mins) I would go with SSD being the most reliable option.

but I would like to know if the camera would work with HDD and with memory stick only ...

Re: "especially if you're gonna buy equipment to keep you alive at north cole" - that's the reason
i don't want to spend to much money on this since i'm paying a lot for "equipment to keep me
alive at north col" :)

--
it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ...
Speed Skydiving Forum

[keithbar 1]

Quote

From my first hand personal experience, the small packet/chemical hand warmers do not work when you start getting above 20k.They just don't work until they get to a lower/warmer altitude/temperature.
I've used the hand warmer packs a lot over the years while deer hunting. my guess is the reason they don't work above 20k is not due to an airpressure or altitude reason. it's the lower o2 levels. they need oxygen to work. they do make a version called " tostie toes" that are little semi circles with a self adhesive backing to stick on your liner socks. they are designed to work inside boots. I know I have read that type is designed to work in a lower oxygen enviroment. might be worth a try

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

• Quote

[antonija 0]

Which hand warmers are you talking about here? And why would they need oxygen to work?

Most hand warmers I've seen were either simple water-bottles (although not filled with water but same principle) or worked on some exotic freeze/thaw cycle where crystallisation would release lots of heat.

Neither use oxygen to run. Or pressure.

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[keithbar 1]

there are a couple of brands " hot hands" is one heatmax is another. they are little or not so little they come in different sizes. packets with a powder inside. they come sealed in airtight plastic. when you tear open the outer plastic bag shake them up and expose them to air they heat up. they work great.

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[Staso 0]

the finale of my story :)

I got a ZIF to CF adapter and 32 GB CF card (see attached). Put those two together and swapped it with the HDD in my camera. Format it and I got 700 minutes of solid state drive camera :) Total cost is about $50.

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it's not about defying gravity; it's how hard you can abuse it. speed skydiving it is ...
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