Equipment questions (weight, snagging, and stills+video in one device)

[obadz 0]

Hi all,

So I'm yet another jumper that would like to start jumping a camera. I know hundreds have posted about "what's the best equipment to jump", but I have certain questions for which I have not found any answers.

First let me describe the constraints that I would like to satisfy:
- Only one, light, device (I care about my neck more than about my art)
- Limited snag risk
- Ability to take stills of reasonable quality (>2megapixels)
- Of course ability to take good digital video

I realize some purists are already itching to tell me that the stills a video camera takes, or the videos a still camera takes are never as good as the real thing. I do not care. This is not for professional use..

I've done a little bit of research and so far in terms of camera I'm converging towards the Sony DCR-HC96.

I know people have jumped it successfully and taken nice videos. What about stills? Is it possible to hook a tongue/bite switch to the device? Can it take stills as it's recording video?

For the helmet, I'm leaning towards the 2k FFX since it seems virtually snag free. A couple of questions about video helmets:
- Is the leverage effect from mounting on the top vs. on the side noticeable in terms of neck pressure on opening or is it practically the same thing?
- If I were to use something that's top mounted, it would probably not be snag free. Are there certain types of attachments that can be used that would rip the camera before it would rip my head ?
- If such attachments exist, of often do jumpers using those encounter snagging problems? For instance, assuming that I top-mount something small, in a 1000 jumps, what would be the rough probability of losing my cam 0.1%, 1%,10% or 50%?

Unfortunately, it's difficult to try this equipment before you buy and it's expensive, so any input that can help me would be appreciated: comments regarding the HC96, the FFX and/or any other related equipment. Would also love to be pointed to other threads were similar issues are discussed.

Blue skies,
David-

[FrancoR 0]

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I know people have jumped it successfully and taken nice videos. What about stills? Is it possible to hook a tongue/bite switch to the device? Can it take stills as it's recording video?

Yes, it's possible, if the camera can do it, but to trigger it you need a special Cameye. Send me a PM if you need more info.

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[DSE 3]

Coupla comments..
~if you're looking for cheap, why not get an HC90 then? Same cam, just cheaper.
~with AVCHD coming at slightly higher price, significantly better stills, easier use on the CF cards than tape, less to break down...why not look at AVCHD instead? Longer lasting format. The HC96 is already done in terms of manufacturing.
The CES allotments are starting to hit the stores now, deals are aplenty, no doubt. But if you're looking for long life, reasonable quality, and don't need to buy right now;today...why not wait 60 days and get twice the cam at only a little higher cost?
As far as the helmet, I don't understand the concept of limiting yourself to one class of camera, particularly one that's already discontinued.
if it's just for freeflying and having fun, then I suppose it doesn't matter, excepting that the widescreen DV is half-resolution, so image quality is very poor. Play it back on an HD display, it'll be pixelated and washed out. But...not everyone is HD yet, and it may be that long-term compatibility isn't important for your goals.
HC90's can be picked up cheap all over the place, and it's the same body as the 96, FWIW.
I was unaware that the 96 could shoot to mem stick while recording DV tape?

[pilotdave 0]

Consider the FF2 instead of the FFX. Basically just as snag-free (the door really has no snag points), but MUCH more convenient to use. I've heard the FFX is a pain in the ass every time you need to take the camera out or put it in. I have an FF2 and lately I've had to take the camera off between every jump (4-way video).

Also not sure if they make it to fit an HC-96... don't remember seeing that on the list, but I haven't checked recently.

The FF2 can fit a wide range of cameras though... but new side-mountable cameras are becoming scarce.

Dave

[obadz 0]

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~if you're looking for cheap, why not get an HC90 then? Same cam, just cheaper.

Great point. Thx.

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~with AVCHD coming at slightly higher price, significantly better stills, easier use on the CF cards than tape, less to break down...why not look at AVCHD instead? Longer lasting format.

Thanks for the insights. I will do some more reading on AVCHD (and the differences with HDV?) and will come back with some more questions. In the mean time, is there some models that you recommend? Should I restrict myself to Sony stuff? I assume the hard drive based cams are not a good idea for jumping? And of course DVD is out of the question so that leaves me with only flash memory, right?

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The CES allotments are starting to hit the stores now, deals are aplenty, no doubt. But if you're looking for long life, reasonable quality, and don't need to buy right now;today...why not wait 60 days and get twice the cam at only a little higher cost?

I'll definitly do that, I'm not in such a rush..

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As far as the helmet, I don't understand the concept of limiting yourself to one class of camera, particularly one that's already discontinued.

I did notice this drawback of the FFX. It seems like the AVCHD cameras aren't vertical like the PCs and HCs. That pretty much means top-mounting, no? Are there reasons for not freeflying with a top mounted cam? What about my questions regarding snagging and leverage on the neck during opening?

Thanks a lot for the insights!
David-

[dragon2 0]

The HC series cams are not really suitable for sidemounting either. The HC96 is way too wide IMO.

For sidemounting, look for a 2d hand pc series camera.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[bofh 0]

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I have an FF2 and lately I've had to take the camera off between every jump (4-way video).

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I can't help myself.

I have a FF2 with a PC107. I cut off an A/V-cable and soldered a female-connector to the other end of it, drilled a little hole in the FF2 and glued it in place. I can have the male-connector plugged into the camera while it is mounted in the helmet and by connecting another A/V-cable in the new connector on the helmet, I can dump (in analog of course) without opening up the helmet at all. The IR-remote works somehow when it is pointed at the front of the helmet (perhaps via the tiny space around the lens?).

15$ and 1h of work.

[tetra316 0]

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- Is the leverage effect from mounting on the top vs. on the side noticeable in terms of neck pressure on opening or is it practically the same thing?

I think the pressure is noticeable. Your spine is MUCH stronger than your neck therefore in case of a hard opening or mal you would want your spine supporting the extra pressure. Hence the reason to mount both on top. Since I'm not into professional photography I got an elph and had if modified for stills so as to have not need to put anything on the side. And just an interesting sidenote, all the truely professional videographers I've have seen have everything on top (of course theirs probably is somewhere around 50 pds). I also think the snag hazard is less with top mounts. No riser strikes to worry about (normally).

[obadz 0]

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- Is the leverage effect from mounting on the top vs. on the side noticeable in terms of neck pressure on opening or is it practically the same thing?

I think the pressure is noticeable. Your spine is MUCH stronger than your neck therefore in case of a hard opening or mal you would want your spine supporting the extra pressure. Hence the reason to mount both on top.

Wait... I would have thought that since top mounted cameras are further away from the neck, the leverage effect would make them worse, not better.. ??

[The111 1]

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Wait... I would have thought that since top mounted cameras are further away from the neck, the leverage effect would make them worse, not better.. ??

To understand this you need to know the difference between bending and compression.

With the weight directly on top of your head, and the proper head position during deployment (eyes on horizon), the only force transmitted will be compression, through your neck and spine. If the vertical load is directly in line with your neck, there is no "leverage" at all, as you speak of. You can get undesirable bending load on your neck if you allow your neck to bend, looking downward.

With the weight on the side of your head, no matter how you position your head during deployment, you will get a bending load on your neck. For that matter, it will be a sideways bending load which means you'll be stressing your neck asymmetrically which does not sound desirable to me. I've never once jumped a sidemount but I'm sure with a light camera, a strong neck, and a nice canopy it can be done no problem, I know many people who do just that. But it's not my preference and I see no reason for it.

Get yourself an old pro-tec helmet and duct tape a 5lb weight to it. Try two configurations: (1) weight on top and (2) weight on the side. Walk around your house all day and see which you prefer in the end. Disclaimer: I just pulled this idea out of thin air... use good duct tape or you'll be dropping that weight on your toe.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[strop45 0]

If the opening started with you in a sit, was perfectly on heading but just very fast, I agree with you 100%. If on the other hand, you start from a belly to earth position and then doesn't leverage come into play?

Just as more weight is harder on your neck, then more leverage is also. Of course the twisting moment might be harder on your neck than the in-line whip-lash, but I'm not so sure.

Note I'm not really disagreeing with you, just trying to get a better understanding...

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[PharmerPhil 0]

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the only force transmitted will be compression, through your neck and spine.

This is incorrect. Unless you start your deployment while in a vertical position (not recommended), your body will pivot around the attachment point. This will cause there to be substantial bending force on your neck. And with a top-mounted camera, yes the force will be amplified the further the weight is from the pivot point. The bending will be fore and aft rather than side to side (like on a side-mount), but it will still be present.

i jump both side-mount and top-mount, and these days I jump a top-mount almost exclusively. But this is more because that is the only way to get the equipment I want on my head. IMHO, either sucks if you get a bad opening.

[pilotdave 0]

But doesn't the real difference come into play at the moment when acceleration is maximum? I'm sure it varies, but I would guess the hardest part of my openings is after I'm already vertical. I mean, sure, there will be a bending force on the neck as you pivot, but that's probably pretty small compared to the compression you get as the slider starts to come down.

Seems to me that the worst of both worlds is a front mounted still camera. That just looks awful for the neck.

Dave

[The111 1]

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the only force transmitted will be compression, through your neck and spine.

This is incorrect. Unless you start your deployment while in a vertical position (not recommended), your body will pivot around the attachment point.

You are right, I over-simplified. But I agree with Dave that the initial force is minimal compared to what you feel once you're already vertical. In my experience (wingsuit deployments with a Pilot), the hardest part comes near the very end of the deployment, and by that point I am literally holding my helmet in my hands and my arms are taking most of the load, not my neck. I wouldn't recommend this to everybody but it works for me.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[obadz 0]

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IMHO, either sucks if you get a bad opening.

Depressing

I want a high def wide angle bullet cam with the recording unit in a specially designed pocket in my rig! Wait a minute.. it doesn't exist

[davelepka 4]

How about you stop being a pussy, and relaize that for years beofre mini DV was even invented camera and cam helmets were far bigger and heavier then they are today.

Any of the newer helmets with a single chip mini DV cam will be fine, and you'll live (as long as you stop being a pussy).

Top mount or side mount both work fine. There are 1000's of each being jumped with no trouble every day. Have an experienced camera flyer help you set up your helmet so you get it right the first time.

The biggest factor is making sure that YOU are ready to fly the helmet. The majority of problems that people have are not to poor performance from their equipment, but poor performance by the user.

My vote is to double your jump numbers before you strap on a camera.

[DSE 3]

I didn't want to be the one saying "get more jumps" but Dave is right about that...Even as just a fun jumper/up jumper not shooting anything, the camera *can* become a significant distraction, which is frankly...a bigger deal than snag points in some sigutations.

Back to point...
A bullet cam recording to a body pack already exists, has done so for years, and will be even more common. You want small, light, cheap. Pick two. And if you want quality added on top of that, pick two.