rehmwa 2 #1 February 26, 2008 Doesn't anyone want to talk 4 way, anymore? In any case, I'm wondering which randoms and blocks people have more than one "typical" config. (Not counting the normal switches for slot switchers). I used to consider quite a few, but it got complicated. So now, only a few seem to lend themselves - Crank - about 50/50 it seems to make sense to use the point/tail in the cat, instead of the typical IC/OC - gotta watch the moves, it isn't obvious until it's laid down 22 - Our normal plan is OC and Tail are the cat, but about half the time (again) it makes better sense to spin point/tail in the cat. 22 can really muck with things sometimes. Adder - lots of variations that really help anything else? pretty rare- sometimes it's just better to make a slightly bigger move to keep it straight in your brains - actually, it's easier, not harder since we've gone to the full pool the more complicated the flow, the more we tend to hold to the ones trained as primary unless it'll help switch us back or so.... used to have alternate B's, and mixed 9's with A/D, etc, but though faster on paper, not really in practice if someone glitches ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #2 February 26, 2008 Quote Doesn't anyone want to talk 4 way, anymore? Is that when only 3 other people will agree to jump with you? ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #3 February 27, 2008 Quote Quote Doesn't anyone want to talk 4 way, anymore? Is that when only 3 other people will agree to jump with you? 4 others. Why do hate camera people so much? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jverley 0 #4 February 27, 2008 Quote Why do hate camera people so much? Because they make my skydiving look bad. Without video I am AWESOME! Just ask me. Airspeed is just better than me because I am camera shy.Back on topic, you can build any point in any configuration. The challenge usually comes with the skill sets for the slot. If the entire team is perfectly equal in all aspects its easy to do. Making the point the back end of the cat in a crank can make sense depending on the prior and next points but if they are gonna be struggling with the key, that may not buy you any advantage.John Arizona Hiking Trails Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #5 February 27, 2008 Quote Back on topic, you can build any point in any configuration.....but if they are gonna be struggling with the key, that may not buy you any advantage . Exactly. I'm looking for specific examples from teams where they find those alternatives worth keeping in their playbook. And where they thought it would be good, but found out it was more pain than not. And mainly from those that are in the middle of the Advanced class skill and experience group. As I said, we had a lot of formations previously that we chose to break continuity, but the return on the effort dimished quickly and now we are really open to only a couple of items that seem to lend themselves to easing the load (N and 22 and L) I can re engineer many transitions that has 1 person doing a 180 and 3 people doing nothing and get a transition that has all of us doing 90's. In theory, that should be faster, but in reality, putting the others in positions that don't match training will likely end up causing problems. One that I found that REALLY messes us up is an alternate B (stairstep diamond) - our plan is the wings of the diamond are the point and tail. But many times it's more efficient to put the IC and OC as the wings (think standard N to these B for this example). But for some reason, this other B really confuses people - the picture is just wrong. So we just eliminated that option completely. Let the OC do the big turn - it's my job. We are fantastic when the camera guy can't make practice...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
the_sarge 0 #6 February 27, 2008 QuoteExactly. I'm looking for specific examples from teams where they find those alternatives worth keeping in their playbook. And where they thought it would be good, but found out it was more pain than not. Have you taken a look at how some russian 4way teams engineer their jumps? Looks like they always go for the fastest transitions i stead of fixed slots. Found some video of "Black Cat" on skyleague.com: http://4way.us/NSL/MC07R10BlackCat.wmv Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #7 February 27, 2008 Yeah, and they seem to flow from point to point instead of the stop/grip/go thing too. It's cool, but I don't think we are mentally at that point in any way, shape, or form. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #8 February 28, 2008 Yeah, and they seem to flow from point to point instead of the stop/grip/go thing too. It's cool, but I don't think we are mentally at that point in any way, shape, or form. Quote You typically don't see too many teams below a 20 average the really use that too successfully, Airspeed started moving to that a few years back and it's worked great for them.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kirkverner 0 #9 February 28, 2008 We have several but more options require more training. A,C,G,K, and Q all have options. We monitor "exotic" randoms and see if B/L's or slow keys happen around them and then weigh out their worth. Sometimes we throw them away once we reach our lockdown stage. ParacleteXP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #10 February 28, 2008 Quote A,C,G,K, and Q all have options I'm not visuallizing the A or the K options. (other than we've used alternate A where the point/OC change roles to effect a swing move which works nicely - the K has that cat which opens up options, but I think for us it would brainlock us). the C is pretty good, especially when the OC is already facing out - we've used that without issue. Oddball G's have cause some issues for us and we avoid that as usually whoever ends up in the IC's typ position has issues with presenting their hips to the "tail" of the modified formation. The wrap around Q is great for us for an more foolproof exit and we did it great in practice, but it's hurt us in comp, so we kept it as an exit, but fire and forget it in favor of the 'standard'. THANKS, this is what I was talking about. GQ - Yeah, I commented last year that the Airspeed 'Looked' like it was flowing much like the Russians. I bet they still do stop drills, but are so good that it just looks like they are still moving (and my eyes don't operate so quickly to see it). ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kirkverner 0 #11 February 28, 2008 the A we use is typically out of a D or 11 which it turns into a completely b-slot A that is mirrored. The K has the OC on the front and the tail on the back with the point and IC in the cat, especially if block 15 follows. The curvy G (good rapper name BTW) is the same in the front but has the tail sidebodying the OC and the IC on the back of the tail, typical out of standard K or block 2. With regards to the round Q we guarantee the person with one grip so that whoever has both grips gets them and goes. ParacleteXP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #12 February 29, 2008 GQ - Yeah, I commented last year that the Airspeed 'Looked' like it was flowing much like the Russians. I bet they still do stop drills, but are so good that it just looks like they are still moving (and my eyes don't operate so quickly to see it).Quote Craig mentioned in an interview last year that they are basically trying to take the momentun from one move and find a way to translate it into the next, obviously solid stops can do a lot for up and coming teams but at the top level teams are moving away from it. I got to see it up close a few weeks ago when I was in Eloy, they were fine tuning a few blocks, one of the ones that really caught my eye was their transition from the close of an 8 to a J. Andy took grips on the front piece while both pieces were still rotating, never slowed down and slid right out into the J while mark kept his momentum on the back of the cat piece and did the exact same thing. I kept waiting for a stop and they never even slowed down. Mark was also putting some good vert. on the back piece, kicking his legs right over the heads of Craig and Eliana, its such a good learning experience watching em in the tunnel. Kirk, I've seen G used to get out of a SS before but other than that I can only think of 1, maybe 2 other times where using an alternate slot on that one would come into play, which formations do you usually follow a B slot G with?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #13 February 29, 2008 Worked that A I've tried many times and it makes sense a lot of the time (D, 11, 9, ..) a variation presents itself occasionally. We aren't that clean so it doesn't add much value but maybe when we get better.... This was an option I hated to drop because it presents itself a lot. We had issues with that G as the IC kept getting stranded by the tail, but we have a new tail with a lot more 'court sense' this year and can help present better and me and Point can help.... I hadn't considered that K for moving into an L or a 15. THANKS I'll have to lay it out and see if it's right for us = seems like the the OC still has to make a 180 to the 15 with a little translation. I bet once on creepers I'll see what you mean. And the point has his move minimized. this is just for thinking purposes, we don't have nearly enough practices scheduled this year to play around too much - I wish we did ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #14 February 29, 2008 GQ - I've seen the exact same stuff on the vids (you are lucky to see that kind of thing up close in the tunnels, etc). That's just what I mean. The russians had some kind of record jump within the last couple years with that other G. H-something - G - 9. Right around the time they did the HOBQE ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #15 February 29, 2008 you're thinking of H-O-G-9, they were moving so damn fast that the 9 was done comepletely as a G with a huge cheat on the cat and the H just presented itself perfectly from the close. I've got it saved if you want me to send it to ya. Ya know the other cool thing I got to see, after all the serious flying was done they were having some fun and I got to watch Andy fly the point slot on blocks 2 and 4, that dudes got some borderline John E quickness on those solo moves. I watched him fly OC when I was doing a 3 on 1 session with em one time, his speed is tailor made for the front piece if he ever wanted to change slots. and he's a great coach too!History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #16 February 29, 2008 That's the one. I can find it now. They had a great year, I watched for their stuff as much as I was watching Airspeed and Magic. momentum from one move to the next? the close of 8 straight to a standard Q happens a lot it seems ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rdutch 0 #17 March 1, 2008 QuoteYeah, and they seem to flow from point to point instead of the stop/grip/go thing too. It's cool, but I don't think we are mentally at that point in any way, shape, or form. They also are well known for turning a lot of points and busting a lot of points. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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kirkverner 0 #9 February 28, 2008 We have several but more options require more training. A,C,G,K, and Q all have options. We monitor "exotic" randoms and see if B/L's or slow keys happen around them and then weigh out their worth. Sometimes we throw them away once we reach our lockdown stage. ParacleteXP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #10 February 28, 2008 Quote A,C,G,K, and Q all have options I'm not visuallizing the A or the K options. (other than we've used alternate A where the point/OC change roles to effect a swing move which works nicely - the K has that cat which opens up options, but I think for us it would brainlock us). the C is pretty good, especially when the OC is already facing out - we've used that without issue. Oddball G's have cause some issues for us and we avoid that as usually whoever ends up in the IC's typ position has issues with presenting their hips to the "tail" of the modified formation. The wrap around Q is great for us for an more foolproof exit and we did it great in practice, but it's hurt us in comp, so we kept it as an exit, but fire and forget it in favor of the 'standard'. THANKS, this is what I was talking about. GQ - Yeah, I commented last year that the Airspeed 'Looked' like it was flowing much like the Russians. I bet they still do stop drills, but are so good that it just looks like they are still moving (and my eyes don't operate so quickly to see it). ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirkverner 0 #11 February 28, 2008 the A we use is typically out of a D or 11 which it turns into a completely b-slot A that is mirrored. The K has the OC on the front and the tail on the back with the point and IC in the cat, especially if block 15 follows. The curvy G (good rapper name BTW) is the same in the front but has the tail sidebodying the OC and the IC on the back of the tail, typical out of standard K or block 2. With regards to the round Q we guarantee the person with one grip so that whoever has both grips gets them and goes. ParacleteXP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #12 February 29, 2008 GQ - Yeah, I commented last year that the Airspeed 'Looked' like it was flowing much like the Russians. I bet they still do stop drills, but are so good that it just looks like they are still moving (and my eyes don't operate so quickly to see it).Quote Craig mentioned in an interview last year that they are basically trying to take the momentun from one move and find a way to translate it into the next, obviously solid stops can do a lot for up and coming teams but at the top level teams are moving away from it. I got to see it up close a few weeks ago when I was in Eloy, they were fine tuning a few blocks, one of the ones that really caught my eye was their transition from the close of an 8 to a J. Andy took grips on the front piece while both pieces were still rotating, never slowed down and slid right out into the J while mark kept his momentum on the back of the cat piece and did the exact same thing. I kept waiting for a stop and they never even slowed down. Mark was also putting some good vert. on the back piece, kicking his legs right over the heads of Craig and Eliana, its such a good learning experience watching em in the tunnel. Kirk, I've seen G used to get out of a SS before but other than that I can only think of 1, maybe 2 other times where using an alternate slot on that one would come into play, which formations do you usually follow a B slot G with?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #13 February 29, 2008 Worked that A I've tried many times and it makes sense a lot of the time (D, 11, 9, ..) a variation presents itself occasionally. We aren't that clean so it doesn't add much value but maybe when we get better.... This was an option I hated to drop because it presents itself a lot. We had issues with that G as the IC kept getting stranded by the tail, but we have a new tail with a lot more 'court sense' this year and can help present better and me and Point can help.... I hadn't considered that K for moving into an L or a 15. THANKS I'll have to lay it out and see if it's right for us = seems like the the OC still has to make a 180 to the 15 with a little translation. I bet once on creepers I'll see what you mean. And the point has his move minimized. this is just for thinking purposes, we don't have nearly enough practices scheduled this year to play around too much - I wish we did ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #14 February 29, 2008 GQ - I've seen the exact same stuff on the vids (you are lucky to see that kind of thing up close in the tunnels, etc). That's just what I mean. The russians had some kind of record jump within the last couple years with that other G. H-something - G - 9. Right around the time they did the HOBQE ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #15 February 29, 2008 you're thinking of H-O-G-9, they were moving so damn fast that the 9 was done comepletely as a G with a huge cheat on the cat and the H just presented itself perfectly from the close. I've got it saved if you want me to send it to ya. Ya know the other cool thing I got to see, after all the serious flying was done they were having some fun and I got to watch Andy fly the point slot on blocks 2 and 4, that dudes got some borderline John E quickness on those solo moves. I watched him fly OC when I was doing a 3 on 1 session with em one time, his speed is tailor made for the front piece if he ever wanted to change slots. and he's a great coach too!History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #16 February 29, 2008 That's the one. I can find it now. They had a great year, I watched for their stuff as much as I was watching Airspeed and Magic. momentum from one move to the next? the close of 8 straight to a standard Q happens a lot it seems ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rdutch 0 #17 March 1, 2008 QuoteYeah, and they seem to flow from point to point instead of the stop/grip/go thing too. It's cool, but I don't think we are mentally at that point in any way, shape, or form. They also are well known for turning a lot of points and busting a lot of points. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
rehmwa 2 #13 February 29, 2008 Worked that A I've tried many times and it makes sense a lot of the time (D, 11, 9, ..) a variation presents itself occasionally. We aren't that clean so it doesn't add much value but maybe when we get better.... This was an option I hated to drop because it presents itself a lot. We had issues with that G as the IC kept getting stranded by the tail, but we have a new tail with a lot more 'court sense' this year and can help present better and me and Point can help.... I hadn't considered that K for moving into an L or a 15. THANKS I'll have to lay it out and see if it's right for us = seems like the the OC still has to make a 180 to the 15 with a little translation. I bet once on creepers I'll see what you mean. And the point has his move minimized. this is just for thinking purposes, we don't have nearly enough practices scheduled this year to play around too much - I wish we did ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #14 February 29, 2008 GQ - I've seen the exact same stuff on the vids (you are lucky to see that kind of thing up close in the tunnels, etc). That's just what I mean. The russians had some kind of record jump within the last couple years with that other G. H-something - G - 9. Right around the time they did the HOBQE ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #15 February 29, 2008 you're thinking of H-O-G-9, they were moving so damn fast that the 9 was done comepletely as a G with a huge cheat on the cat and the H just presented itself perfectly from the close. I've got it saved if you want me to send it to ya. Ya know the other cool thing I got to see, after all the serious flying was done they were having some fun and I got to watch Andy fly the point slot on blocks 2 and 4, that dudes got some borderline John E quickness on those solo moves. I watched him fly OC when I was doing a 3 on 1 session with em one time, his speed is tailor made for the front piece if he ever wanted to change slots. and he's a great coach too!History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #16 February 29, 2008 That's the one. I can find it now. They had a great year, I watched for their stuff as much as I was watching Airspeed and Magic. momentum from one move to the next? the close of 8 straight to a standard Q happens a lot it seems ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #17 March 1, 2008 QuoteYeah, and they seem to flow from point to point instead of the stop/grip/go thing too. It's cool, but I don't think we are mentally at that point in any way, shape, or form. They also are well known for turning a lot of points and busting a lot of points. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
