How do you close the infinity?

[Cornholio 0]

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Please share a pic of that

Sure. I'm at work, so I'll try and take a pic of it when I get home.

Butthead: Whoa! Burritos for breakfast!
Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! Cool!
bellyflier on the dz.com hybrid record jump

[Cornholio 0]

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Please share a pic of that

Sure. I'm at work, so I'll try and take a pic of it when I get home.

How about this picture?

The pack job is really loose, but maybe that is because I lengthened the closing loop by 1/4 inches. But it is the way Kelly said it's supposed to be. I will wait and see if it tightens up over the next couple days before jumping it on Sunday. Otherwise I am going to shorten the closing loop a bit - it really is loose.

And the bridle is routed the way I think we talked about - routed between the center and right flaps.

Does this look better ? Kelly, your thoughts ?

Butthead: Whoa! Burritos for breakfast!
Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! Cool!
bellyflier on the dz.com hybrid record jump

[hookitt 0]

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The pack job is really loose

Safety and cosmetics... F*** the cosmetics. If it's loose just tighten it back up. It will not miraculously expand. Lets Talk Practicality. Dude, I have witnessed way too many unpleasant events to be politically correct about that. Tighten that shit back up.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[KellyF 16]

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Does this look better ? Kelly, your thoughts ?

Tecnically, that is the way it should be, but if you have a smaller canopy than the container was built for, by all means shorten the loop to increase teh tension on the pin. Hookitt is spot on.

[jerm 0]

quote]Then we are apparently, if I reading your answer correctly, in complete agreement.

Well, no. You think my pin is upside down, I say that it's fine the way it is. Different doesn't denote wrong.

The Manual SHOWs it one way, however never states anywhere that this is the proper/best/etc way to do it. It may have just been good for illustration.

Even if that is the "proper" way according to the manufacturer, I'll keep doing it how i do for the reasons stated in previous posts. I'll consider any compelling reasoning you have for why i should not, but without some GOOD reasoning for why i should change, my pin is staying the way it is

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[Cornholio 0]

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Tighten that shit back up.

Oh no doubt, I will. And I can see it expanding a bit. I figure that I use all my weight to close the freakin thing, that if I let it loosen up a bit, the pack job will expand a bit. But don't get me wrong, come Sunday, if it's as loose as it is now, I'm gonna tighten it up.

And Kelly, it was sized for a 190 and that is what is in there. I am afraid to see what the cosmetics look like if I decide to put a 170 in there someday.

Butthead: Whoa! Burritos for breakfast!
Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! Cool!
bellyflier on the dz.com hybrid record jump

[KellyF 16]

It shouldn't be soft then. I guess that is a relative term

[Cornholio 0]

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Did you repack the canopy, or just open the container, lengthen the loop and reclose it? I think it will probably be fine if you repack the canopy.

That's exactly what I was thinking. No I didn't repack the canopy. I will tighten it up before jumping and resize it again after jumping on Sunday.

Butthead: Whoa! Burritos for breakfast!
Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! Cool!
bellyflier on the dz.com hybrid record jump

[hookitt 0]

What happens when he puts it in his closet for 3 weeks? It will still be loose. I'm not trying to stir shit. Please don't take this as a slam.

Kelly, I'll be happy to look at this when I see him next.The weather has not cooperated very nicely so getting to the same DZ is sporadic.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Well, no. You think my pin is upside down, I say that it's fine the way it is. Different doesn't denote wrong.

Hopefully, you don't honestly believe this.

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The Manual SHOWs it one way, however never states anywhere that this is the proper/best/etc way to do it. It may have just been good for illustration.

What if you are wrong? My experience is that most manufacturers spend a lot of time making sure everything in their manuals is precise. Have you had a diffent experience? If so could you share it with us?

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Even if that is the "proper" way according to the manufacturer, I'll keep doing it how i do for the reasons stated in previous posts. I'll consider any compelling reasoning you have for why i should not, but without some GOOD reasoning for why i should change, my pin is staying the way it is

Install "your pin" any way you choose for whatever reason you choose to believe is the best. I would caution you however about ignoring what manufacturers consider "proper" for whatever anecdotal reasoning you may choose to believe.
I should also point out to you that installing the pin in the fashion you have chosen does have the potential to create a container lock if the locking loop slips up towards the islet of the closing pin. Take your rig out and experiment with it simulating deployment on your right side, slightly heads down. Admittedly the odds are rare but it is still a possibility. Probably more of a possibility that snagging the pin on something while freeflying.

Bob

[KellyF 16]

Hookitt: depending on how the canopy is packed, and how the bag is positioned in the container, the tension on the pin could increase substantially the next time he packs it. Example: if the left side of the bag is not quite filled out enough, or is it is shifted to the right in the container, there will be less pressure on the left side flap when he simply recloses the rig with a longer loop.

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I should also point out to you that installing the pin in the fashion you have chosen does have the potential to create a container lock if the locking loop slips up towards the islet of the closing pin. Take your rig out and experiment with it simulating deployment on your right side, slightly heads down. Admittedly the odds are rare but it is still a possibility. Probably more of a possibility that snagging the pin on something while freeflying.

Bob

While this was a problem with some pins made in the mid-late '80's it really isn't much of a concern with the pins that all (to the best of my knowledge) manufactuers use today. The suspect pins were made from wire, and the eye was made by bending the wire in the opposite direction of the curve. If the closing loop got too close to the eye, a vertical pull of the from the bridle would rotate the pin so that the curve went down, thus making pin extraction improbable.

[hookitt 0]

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Hookitt: depending on how the canopy is packed, and how the bag is positioned in the container, the tension on the pin could increase substantially the next time he packs it. Example: if the left side of the bag is not quite filled out enough, or is it is shifted to the right in the container, there will be less pressure on the left side flap when he simply recloses the rig with a longer loop .

I understand that Kelly. The next time I see it I'll and pack it up myself. I'll share what we find. HOPEFULLY....it will be sunday.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Gravitymaster 0]

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While this was a problem with some pins made in the mid-late '80's it really isn't much of a concern with the pins that all (to the best of my knowledge) manufactuers use today. The suspect pins were made from wire, and the eye was made by bending the wire in the opposite direction of the curve. If the closing loop got too close to the eye, a vertical pull of the from the bridle would rotate the pin so that the curve went down, thus making pin extraction improbable.

Agreed. The odds of this happening on modern closing pins is much less "probable" than they were in the past. I would say however the pull force required to extract a pin in this position would be slightly higher than one where the pin was in the position recommended by the manufacturer. My main point is the probability of this causing a container-lock as opposed to an exposed pin snagging on something while freeflying is greater, however remote the possibility.
I would liken this discussion to one where we were arguing whether the side flap (3 and 4)closing sequence on the main pack tray of a Javelin container was much of an issue. Probably not, but why not just follow the manufactureres instructions? Just to be different isn't a very good reason

Bob

[hookitt 0]

This has been fun

Try this: Point the pin any direction you feel like, put the rig on, Have some one pull the bridle any which direction. Just pull it don't try and catch it some how, just pull it. Do this over and over untill you get bored with Reclosing the rig.

When the bridle is manufactured, the pin is attached to the bridle, either pointed left, or right. But always toward the bag, so it doesn't start ripping out the stiches of the little loop of material holding the pin.

Whether it "smiles" or "frowns" will not cause trouble. The original Idea was to make sure the pin was not pointed toward the bottom of the container. Pin covers used to suck. Sit down wrong and it could push the pin out. Some one came up with an IDEA.That Idea was to make the pin Smile. All that did was ensure it was not pointed down. Pointing the pin left or right will have the same results.

Try the above experiment. If you prove this wrong, Please let us know

Cheers

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Gravitymaster 0]

No thanks, I have better things to do.
Please re-read my comments regarding how important I think this is.
What I do think is important is to follow the manufacturers instructions. That was my point.

[jerm 0]

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opposed to an exposed pin snagging on something while freeflying is greater

The issue isn't snagging, it's getting pushed out from below.. this HAS happened, there's a reason why people started making an issue of pointing it up, it wasn't just some wacky theory.

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would say however the pull force required to extract a pin in this position would be slightly higher than one where the pin was in the position recommended by the manufacturer

Even if it is SLIGHTLY higher (which you have yet to give compelling evidence of), the pull-force of a PC is SEVERAL TIMES the necessary force to extract the closing pin. So even if it IS "slightly higher", the pin is still coming out.

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Please re-read my comments regarding how important I think this is.
What I do think is important is to follow the manufacturers instructions. That was my point.

Umm.. KellyF IS the bloody manufacturer, and he just said it wasn't an issue. I now consider how i do it to be within the manufacturer's instructions. Is that good enough for you?

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[hookitt 0]

... you guys realize that you're talking about nearly the same thing. Lets forget about smiley or frowney or whatever you want to call it.

Jerm your pic clearly shows the pin pointing up and slightly left. Nothing wrong with that. It's certainly not upside down. (nice rig by the way)

What's the difference if it's point right? None. When I used a throw out, it was just like jerm has his. I pointed it more left though. This allowed me to pin check the rig while wearing it. Had the Pin been attached the other direction, it would have been Smiling. It Frowned it's whole life which probably depressed the hell out of it. So perhaps that's why I finally change to a pull out. It's a straight pin. It has no emotion.

I have a pilot chute right next to me. If I were to pack it using the path of least resistance it would frown, or point up and left like in jerm's picture. To make it smile and Still see the kill line window, I'd have to twist the fabric holding the pin on.

Both are equally affective. Try that experiment I mentioned. You'll get bored Reclosing your rig. Out of sheer frustration you'll be forced to go out and get pizza and beer.

Cheers.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[KellyF 16]

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Had the Pin been attached the other direction, it would have been Smiling. It Frowned it's whole life which probably depressed the hell out of it. So perhaps that's why I finally change to a pull out. It's a straight pin. It has no emotion.

CLASSIC!

FWIW, having the pin point straight up is probably the best way. That being said, mine points straight down No real reason, it's just the way I've been doing it for about 16 years, and to the best of my knowledge, I haven't had one come out accidentally.

[jerm 0]

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you guys realize that you're talking about nearly the same thing.

no, he's telling me my way is inherently dangerous because the diagram in the manual shows it a different way. I contend that it doesn't matter which way the pin points as far as proper extraction is concerned.

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What's the difference if it's point right? None.

THAT is my point... i don't care which way he points it, i'm saying my way is just as valid/safe/proper/etc as what he considers 'right'

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Jerm your pic clearly shows the pin pointing up and slightly left. Nothing wrong with that. It's certainly not upside down.

again, exactly my point.

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(nice rig by the way)

Thanks

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[Gravitymaster 0]

I don't understand why you are getting so over-amped about this. Lets review the discussion.
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I originally said to Jerm:"Turn that closing pin over, it's upside down"
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To which Cornholio said:
According to some people, if you freefly, you want it pointed straight up like that, so it does not snag on anything. Ask B^2, she'll tell you about that method.
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To which I responded:
"No thanks, I'd rather not risk the closing pin becoming locked in the closing loop than the more remote possibility of the closing pin snagging on something".
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GM-Notice how I say REMOTE POSSIBILITY and then compare it to the odds of snagging? Thats the only point I originally started out to make that the odds of a container lock were greater than snagging the pin.
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To which Phreezone said: "Accourding to others (and in the student manual at my DZ) it should be pointed up incase your flap is open and you sit down in the plane it can not push your pin out.

What can it snag on freeflying that it can't on your belly?

Thats the direction its going to get pulled anyways. If its pointing down then it has to be rotated to be pulled and that rotation might be enough to lock it in place.
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And then Jerm said "When i think about WHY would you want to do it that way more than another, i come up with: with all of the bumping/brushing etc that we doing moving aroud the plane, sitting on the floor/seat/etc, you're more likely to, especially if the flap has come open, but even through your flap, create some sort of pressure on that part of the rig from below you -- and if the pin is facing down, it can work its way out. With the pin facing up, the loop will just but up against the wide part of the pin.

That scenerio, i believe, is plenty more likely than snagging, and not something i'd like to have happen.
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To which I agreed.
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We then had a discussion about how owners manuals depict the pin orientation to which Jerm replied:
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"Even if that is the "proper" way according to the manufacturer, I'll keep doing it how i do for the reasons stated in previous posts".
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Jerm then went on to say:
The Manual SHOWs it one way, however never states anywhere that this is the proper/best/etc way to do it. It may have just been good for illustration.
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At this point I tried to explain:
"My experience is that most manufacturers spend a lot of time making sure everything in their manuals is precise. "

See, here I am still just trying to say you should follow the owners manual.

I also said"Install "your pin" any way you choose for whatever reason you choose to believe is the best. I would caution you however about ignoring what manufacturers consider "proper" for whatever anecdotal reasoning you may choose to believe.

See here I'm telling you it isn't that important. At least not as important as you seem to think defending yourself is.

Then KellyF said:
While this was a problem with some pins made in the mid-late '80's it really isn't much of a concern with the pins that all (to the best of my knowledge) manufactuers use today.
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To which i agreed again:
"Agreed. The odds of this happening on modern closing pins is much less "probable" than they were in the past. I would say however the pull force required to extract a pin in this position would be slightly higher than one where the pin was in the position recommended by the manufacturer. My main point is the probability of this causing a container-lock as opposed to an exposed pin snagging on something while freeflying is greater, however remote the possibility.

See here again I am restating what I originally said to Cornholio at the beginning. That the odds of a pin locking in the closing loop was greater than a snag. I am also admitting again it is a remote possibility.
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At this point, Hookit made a few coments about pulling the pin out of your rig a few times. He ignored the fact I said it "could happen under certain conditions"

Quote by GM:I should also point out to you that installing the pin in the fashion you have chosen does have the potential to create a container lock if the locking loop slips up towards the islet of the closing pin. Take your rig out and experiment with it simulating deployment on your right side, slightly heads down. Admittedly the odds are rare but it is still a possibility. Probably more of a possibility that snagging the pin on something while freeflying.

See Jerm? How many times have I said it "could happen" but was unlikely?
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To which Jerm replied:"Even if it is SLIGHTLY higher (which you have yet to give compelling evidence of), the pull-force of a PC is SEVERAL TIMES the necessary force to extract the closing pin. So even if it IS "slightly higher", the pin is still coming out.
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See Jerm, you aren't paying attention to what I'm saying. I NEVER said there was a compelling reason. I only said it was "possible. I also never tried to convince you to change. If fact I told you to insert the pin however you wished.
If you will try what I suggested and the imagine an old pilot chute, you will see it is "possible" albeit remotely.

Jerm then became upset and said to me about Kelly:
Umm.. KellyF IS the bloody manufacturer, and he just said it wasn't an issue. I now consider how i do it to be within the manufacturer's instructions. Is that good enough for you?
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To which Kelly replied:"FWIW, having the pin point straight up is probably the best way.

Which contradicts what Jerm just said.
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Jerm also said:
no, he's telling me my way is inherently dangerous because the diagram in the manual shows it a different way.

Show me where I said this Jerm.

Jerm also said:
THAT is my point... i don't care which way he points it, i'm saying my way is just as valid/safe/proper/etc as what he considers 'right'
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I simply pointed out to you what the owners manual by almost every manufacturer shows. You choose not to follow it for whatever reasons, fine. As I said before install the pin whatever way you want. I prefer to follow the manual.

I have snipped and editorialized some of this thread for brevity. If I left out some part of our conversation you felt was important, it was not intentional and you may correct me.

Jerm, you really need to chill, you are getting way too worked up about this.

[jerm 0]

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Jerm, you really need to chill, you are getting way too worked up about this.

you're right...
I've stepped outside.... and have thusly chilled (it's 16F outside)
Anyway, It's all good.. no hard feelings,... i could nitpick some of the editorializing, but there's no need, as i think we understand eachother's points better then when i wrote me last post



ps. do you jump at orange

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[drenaline 0]

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The pack job is really loose

Please don't jump that thing if it's still loose, I have heard of one terrible accident happen cause of something similar not the same but kinda close (Tom Piras accident).

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but maybe that is because I lengthened the closing loop by 1/4 inches

You measure from the start of the line of the closing loop to the start of the loop or the complete line?

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[Gravitymaster 0]

Back at ya I have jumped at Orange a few times.

[hookitt 0]

Kelly

Cornholio packed it, I closed it. We shortened the loop even more than it was originally. So now it's nice and tight. Cornholio packs very neatly and has now changed the way he closes it, but only slightly, with good results.

When I closed it, I pulled the loop through the Top flap as far as it would go. Then through the side flaps. The Side flaps were basically just touching as you suggested it should be. The key was to ensure the bottom and top flap were closed as much as possible. It was a very simple fix. :)

Cheers.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[KellyF 16]

Excellent, I'll bet the rig looks much cleaner now too