Norgies and the Camera Flyer

[quade 3]

http://skyleague.com/NSLNews.htm

Uh . . . I'm speechless.




Well, not really, but it sounded good for a second there didn't it?

To me, this is the screwiest reasoning I've ever heard of.

So, let me get this straight, they'd rather not have a full time camera flyer, but be at the whims of whoever they can get when they show up at the event?!?

How the hell does that improve anyone's scores?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Ron 7]

It has some points.

I think that the video person should be part of the team....However I would like to see a "reserve" rule where you could use another video person in case the video guy gets hurt.

It would be way to expensive to have the alternate trained in both at a WC level.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tonyhathaway 0]

"Remember, the objective of a videographer is to capture video evidence for the judges, nothing more." -To me, that sums it all up. This is about 4-way. Not 4-way plus how good is a cameraman from their country. 4-way. The judges need to see how the 4-way does in freefall. If a team wants to wait until they get to the meet to get a camera, then there is probably a good reason for it. Its taking a big chance, but still, they need to know that the judges will see EVERY POINT. The video person is the most, and least important part of the process. The most, in that without them the judges wouldn't see anything. The least, in that they are the easiest to replace, and still not take a way from your point average. Please tell me how this is wrong. -Tony

My O.C.D. has me chasing a dream my A.D.D. won't let me catch.

[Ron 7]

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"Remember, the objective of a videographer is to capture video evidence for the judges, nothing more." -To me, that sums it all up. This is about 4-way. Not 4-way plus how good is a cameraman from their country. 4-way.

Agreed. However the old rules of allowing a pool resulted in some sticky situations about rejumps due to NJ's. And most teams used their own camera guys anyway.

Putting the camera guy as a part of the team allowed the judges to use NJ's.....And it is the responsability of the team to show it to the judges.

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If a team wants to wait until they get to the meet to get a camera, then there is probably a good reason for it

The biggest reason is cost savings. I don't have to get sponsored gear for 5 people, I don't have to pay to fly a 5th guy over to the World Meet, I don't have to get him a Hotel.

However, with the current rules you have to have a guy from the same country, and if he gets hurt you have to have your alternate jump the camera. I agree with bringing a camera guy, most top teams do anyway....And I agree with NJ's. So I agree that the Camera person is part of the team.

However, I would like to see a way to replace him in the case of an emergency. Since the camera guy has no effect on the team performance, only on showing it to the judges.

This same argument could be asked about if the Camera guy should get a medal. He didn't add to the performance, and the old ground camera crew guys didn't get medals.

If they wanted to go to a pool again, that would be fine with me...Its cheaper to just buy a camera guy there...But then I want a rejump, or I want the points for the NJ's. And this is the issue that made them go to the Camera guy is a part of the team.

It would be unfair to make me use a pool camera guy, but I could lose points because of him.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[airgord 1]

I see the reasoning behind it, I do not really agree with all of it. If you get to a world meet and your camera guy (girl) gets hurt, your alternate is not a trained vidiot, you should get to use some other nationality for vid, but if they want to relive the debacle of the camera pool where anybody with a camera can be considered then there will be protests and demands for rejumps (remember nationals before "99 and '00, don't recall the exact year) again.

However, if this is just a way for the teams to cut their training costs, then those behind this should be strung up by their pinky toes, I'll supply the wire.
(my conspiracy theory)

[tonyhathaway 0]

A pool doesn't mean you HAVE to pick up someone at the meet. A pool and rejumps don't need to go hand in hand. Can you separate WHO does your video and HOW they do it? A bust is a bust. YOU pick the video. If you pick them a year in advance, or a day in advance. The 4-way still picks them. Its up to the 4-way to get the video to the judges. If they do a poor job finding a qualified video for an important meet, then that is their fault. Sometimes video bust happen. Its rare from the more experienced ones, but it does. Give the teams an option for not having to put their alternate in a video slot, when they possible have never done video in the first place. Its about 4-way. It should be made as easy on them as possible to do their meet. The rule is, if you exit, you accept the conditions for the jump. Spots, clouds and lens fog are part of that. If you exit with a camera you just picked up, you have accepted the conditions to do so. No rejumps. -- If you have ever watched a live pro football game, they have TV time-outs. The players just stand around and make money while the tv and sponsors make more. The commercials are over, then the game gets going again. Football isn't about football and sports. Its a big business that just happens to have a game running through it as part of it. Try to remember that 4-way competitors are still about 4-way. Sure some of them get sponsors, some free stuff, some free jumps, but at the end of the day, this all only makes it a little bit cheaper. Let the 4-way do their 10 jumps, and let them have the choice as to who is going to tape it for the judges. Most I think will still bring their own camera. Who gets medals is another topic I'd say. -Tony

My O.C.D. has me chasing a dream my A.D.D. won't let me catch.

[Ron 7]

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A pool doesn't mean you HAVE to pick up someone at the meet

What was happening is teams like Airspeed but their guys into the pool then drew them out....This allowed them to have their video guy, and also get a rejump for an NJ....It was the major reason that the video guy was put onto the team.

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A pool and rejumps don't need to go hand in hand. Can you separate WHO does your video and HOW they do it? A bust is a bust. YOU pick the video. If you pick them a year in advance, or a day in advance. The 4-way still picks them.

If you pick them they should be on your team...

The only fair way to have a video pool is to have the sponsor put together a group of good video folks and they are the "offical" video folks....You bring your own then you have to put them into the pool, and you can't get them. You get assigned one for every jump. An NJ would not be counted or it would be grounds for a rejump.

That is the only fair way to do it if there is a pool. How would you like to be Airspeed, be assigned a video guy and have round 5 happen to you? If you can't rejump, then some guy the meet director gave you just cost you the meet.

There really is just two ways for this to be fair.

1. Bring your own video guy, or pick him there...Either way he is on your team...And its all counted. NJ's cost you points.

2. A video pool where the camera guys are rotated and NJ's don't count.

1998 it was #2....a lot of rejumps were granted..It was a waste of time.

2002 it was #1, and I don't think we had one rejump.

You told me along time ago that a video guy can't add points....But they sure can take them away. I had a meet where I was winning with a 15.4 avg, and got a Zero in the last round do to a camera issue. We got 2nd, and ended with a 12.8 avg. It was our camera guy so while I was pissed...It was our team that screwed up, just like if I had busted us (A lot). But if it was a guy that was given to me I would have wanted a rejump.

If we picked him, he becomes a part of the team.

If you give him to me, then I am not responsable for his errors.

I understand what you position is...But if there is a pool NJ's will have to be taken out. Rejumps will have to be allowed for camera issues.

I also think that you should be allowed to hire a guy if you have an injury....It would suck to have a video guy get hurt and it end your meet.

So I would like to see a replacement camera guy allowed in case of accident/emergency.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkySlut 0]

You havent met Dag have you??? Meeting him explains a lot of things...just kidding. Now that he got a sensible haircut, I am sure that he is far more responsible and running with the rest of the team at 5 am!!!!

Seriously though, interesting debate...

[mjosparky 3]

Maybe with the scores they post, who flies camera is not an issue.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[tonyhathaway 0]

It seems that there are 2 issues here. The video being part of the team for composition purposes, and for rejump purposes. For compositoin purposes, there should never be a situation where if the video gets hurt, the 4-ways meet is done. Lets be realistic about alternates doing the video. Its just not practical most of the time to train them to do that. Again, I keep going back to its about the 4-way. For rejump purposes, no matter who is doing video, however they ended up on the team, (yes the team should pick, where they pick from doesn't matter) re-jumps shouldn't happen because of camera busts. As light as 2 cameras are, its easy to take 2 on a jump. I don't know why I'm even trying to make a point. What do I care anymore. I've been fired from my last team. From my wife to be exact! Maybe now I can gripper fly 4-way this time around! What if I do 4-way and drop grips on an inter? Will we get a re-jump because I am a cameraman?????!!!!! :)HA-HA--Tony

My O.C.D. has me chasing a dream my A.D.D. won't let me catch.

[Ron 7]

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I don't know why I'm even trying to make a point

Ive wondered that myself

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Maybe now I can gripper fly 4-way this time around!

Well if I do 4way with you and the video guy gets hurt, we can throw the Alternate into slot and put you on video.....Your worth as a 4way guy just went up

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[cutaway 0]

Let the teams have the option of bringing their own videoflyer or pick one up from a pool provided by the organizer. If your team videoflyer gets hurt, use your alternate or pick one up from the pool (or elsewhere).

What if we just get rid of the NJ and rejumps? A bust is a bust.

If the videoflyer blows the video, the team loses points. If you brought him, he's part of your team and you deal with it the same as any other teammate that makes a mistake. If you picked up the videoflyer from a pool then that was your choice to use a hired gun; everyone makes mistakes.

Obviously the organizer should make the best efforts to offer the most qualified cameraflyers but that should be as far as they need to go. Whether the videoflyer is with the team or from the pool, you (the team) live with the results.

So what about re-jumps? If a camera shuts off - tough luck; hopefully a second camera was being used. You don't get a rejump for a premature deployment or other equipment problems why should there be one for cameras? If it was your camera flyer that decided to only use one camera that was your/his choice. If you picked a pool camera flyer with only one camera, that again was your team's choice.

In reality the top national teams will bring their own camer flyer and have a qualified alternate on the team. The option to use another camer flyer in case of injury allows these teams to continue to compete.