crossfire 1 vs 2 turning rate?

[airborne82nd 0]

i have flown both demos but the crossfire 2 turns quicker then the crossfire 1.

why is that and does the the crossfire2 turn like a stileto? or diablo?

i didnt think so but what about when you start to load them.

if so i will get the slower turning crossfire 1

thank you

[dharma1976 0]

if you are talking about front riser turns, try slowing down the crossfire 2 turn by applying the opposite riser man...that is what I do and kinda do a big carving turn with the xfire2 and get some nice swoops with it

never flew the 1 but from what my friends say it is a hella fun canopy

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[airborne82nd 0]

cool thanks

i was talking about just toggle turns

thanks for the advice though

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

i have flown both demos but the crossfire 2 turns quicker then the crossfire 1.

I am a little confused here since you the pilot are the one who is in total control of the turn rate. I guess if you really wanted to get scientific you could do some tests to see how the different wings turn (ie: using the exact same control inputs in the exact same weather conditions on the different wings to see how the canopies differ). But as I said, from a laymens point of view, the canopy pilot is the one who controls the rate of the turn.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[YISkyDive 0]

I’m not sure what your asking exactly- but it depends on the size of the canopy as well as loading.

A light(er) loaded Xf2 does "auto recover." My 149 loaded at 1.57:1 did not maintain a long dive. Just kind recovered at the end. But it did loose a fair amount of altitude during the turn.

My other xf2, a 139, loaded at 1.7 flew much more like one expects. The 139 maintained dive and speed better. I would start a 270 usually 100 or so more feet higher then the 149. The 139 also kept the speed on through the swoop a lot better. Very solid canopy.

On toggles, both are flown with braked turns for low turn landings. Both loose way more altitude then my Diablo loaded at 1.3. I have landed both canopies out in tight spots, but you will not toggle whip it in.

Nether canopy has any sort of over steer. Harness on each canopy is do-able, more so on the 139 then the 149. The 139 loves 270s finished with slow harness input because it just keeps the recovery arc going. The 149 will pop out of the dive even with harness. I just can't get the 149 to keep diving.

The 149 tends to like a little bit of toggle input on landing. It goes further then if it recovers naturally. I do not land on rears so I cannot tell you how they react low to the ground on rears.

Rear riser turns up high are fun on each canopy. Nothing special really. Long spots are very do-able, the 139 has gotten me back from spots a 150 specter didn’t even have a chance.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. I have never jumped an XF1.

I did about 225 jumps on each canopy this season.

[airborne82nd 0]

thanks and thanks chuck i understand your point

how much rear riser input will the crossfire 2 tolerate??

a freind of mine jumps a vision and now a mamba 117 and he can rear riser to plane out and to extend the swoop ect.. he jumped a 105 viper or the old space the predesesor to the cobalt and it high speed stalled him on his ass bone.

one guy said hey that canopy doest tolerate alot of rear riser input

so hows the crossfire 2 on rear riser input granted i dont pull th hell out of them

[flow 1]

Quote

how much rear riser input will the crossfire 2 tolerate?

http://www.shutterfly.com/progal/slideshow.jsp?auto=0&aid=768a5498cf46e9f480d9&idx=57

Now I have to say in this picture there is PLENTY of input and it still seems to fly. Can't really say giving any canopy that much of rear riser input is smart though...

Oh, and I have no idea if this canopy is XF1 or XF2?

[trigger 0]

Depends on what you're trying to do with the rears.
Turn left pull on the left one,turn right pull on the right one
Stall the canopy pull them both until the canopy stalls.
Plain out in a straight line during a swoop pull them both until the canopy plains out.
Point is wtf to expect to learn about how a canopy flys online just jump the damn thing,take your time over many jumps until you know how it flys and you are the master of that canopy and the way it flys, if you have doubts then maybe your just not ready as there's more to flying a canopy than simply surviving it

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

if you are talking about front riser turns, try slowing down the crossfire 2 turn by applying the opposite riser man...that is what I do and kinda do a big carving turn with the xfire2 and get some nice swoops with it

What? Instead of creating a situation in which you're basically warping the canopy with opposite riser inputs why not adjust the overall rate of turn with a little better control on the front riser and then harness inputs to adjust the minor stuff? The harness inputs effect the opposite side of the canopy more evenly instead of twisting your wing even more then it is.

Quote

that is what I do and kinda do a big carving turn with the xfire2

I did that when I first got that canopy. The more jumps I did on it the more successful I found myself being by starting with a slower turn as I pulled the turn in and really "pushed" the canopy forward towards the course. Think of a funnel in the sky, bringing you faster and tighter the closer to the bottom you get. I personally found that to work really well for me. Too bad I couldn't always pull that turn off in competition.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[trigger 0]

Like your analogy of a"funnel in the sky"
Never thought of it like that.
Me,personally go from braked flight to deep double fronts easing up one riser taking or so it feels"deeper into the dive"

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Me,personally go from braked flight to deep double fronts easing up one riser taking or so it feels"deeper into the dive"

You can do it that way, but I always looked at is as you're flying at 1/2 your airspeed. Now you have to make up that airspeed as well as build more airspeed in the recovery arc of your canopy. Why not start at a higher airspeed (full flight) and build on that. Personally I fly my downwind in about 1/2 brakes to help adjust the pattern, turn onto base and *might* fly in some sort of brake configuration but I want to be at full flight and have been at full flight for a few seconds prior to my turn. Personally I believe you get more out of your canopy that way (if you can pull the front risers from full flight).

Then again, I'm not some PST pro getting money to coach because I'm a swoop-ninja. This is just stuff I've figured out along the way. Take it, leave it, or better yet...tell me I'm wrong, explain why and help me learn.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[trigger 0]

Tho i hear what your saying,i believe a braked approach enables me to get my fronts deeper due to initially lightening up the riser pressure.
edited vto add...enabling me to make the canopy dive steeper and pick up more speed,at bit like rolling a car for that matter down a 3:1 incline over a 2 mile distance and then rolling the same car down a 4:1 incline for the same distance.The car reaches a higher final velocity on the 4:1 run.[gravity rules]
Point is if your not getting your canopy to dive to its full potential your never going to reach its maximum potential swoop speed

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[ianmdrennan 2]

As an advocate of the braked to double front approach I have to say that, IMO, it's success is critically dependant on the pilot staying on the front risers long enough to recover to full flight speed before turning.

Most people I see struggling with the technique turn before they ever recovered their lost airspeed, ultimately resulting in a slower swoop than they could have achieved.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[dharma1976 0]

Quote

Quote

if you are talking about front riser turns, try slowing down the crossfire 2 turn by applying the opposite riser man...that is what I do and kinda do a big carving turn with the xfire2 and get some nice swoops with it

What? Instead of creating a situation in which you're basically warping the canopy with opposite riser inputs why not adjust the overall rate of turn with a little better control on the front riser and then harness inputs to adjust the minor stuff? The harness inputs effect the opposite side of the canopy more evenly instead of twisting your wing even more then it is.

hmmm I was talking opposite front riser...I do my turns with both front risers is that considered non cool these days?

so if you started turn with one riser and then applied other riser to slow down turn and work getting on line?

this is bad?

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

hmmm I was talking opposite front riser...I do my turns with both front risers is that considered non cool these days?

No, I apologize, I misread your post (stupid medication). For some reason I read that you use your opposite rear riser to adjust your rate of turn. Which isn't exactly a good thing to do. Double fronts is a fine technique. I personally don't use double fronts, but lots of people do and swoop really damned good that way.

Once again, sorry about that.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Point is if your not getting your canopy to dive to its full potential your never going to reach its maximum potential swoop speed

Definately, "dive to its full potential without loosing all of its speed to the recovery." That's why I've started stepping up to work on some bigger turns.

That's what I love about swooping. RW has it just about figured out, watch all the top 4-way guys/gals and they're all using really similar flying technique. Overall its pretty similar. With swooping, its still so new and there's so much more learning to be done that there are hundreds of ways to make an approach and it all depends on how you do each technique. Some people do really well with a certain technique, others not so much...we're still figuring it out.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[trigger 0]

Glad to hear you're an advocate of the only technique i know.
I guess it's what works best for the individual.

Sorry,but back to the dive,increasing the angle of attack of a canopy to its maximum potential will increase its speed and enable the pilot to achieve more in terms swoop distance etc.

I seen many a pilot completing large rotations[360's and some]and simply not achieving much in the way of speed or distance because imo the turns have been relatively "flat"

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

Definately, "dive to its full potential without loosing all of its speed to the recovery." That's why I've started stepping up to work on some bigger turns.

Something to add on to that - don't forget about accuracy. Do the type of turn that allows you to most consistently, safely, and as powerfully as possible for the turn, to hit the gates (5 ft). Once you feel you are able to do that under almost any circumstances (winds, pressure, traffic, DA and a myriad of other considerations) then slowly start increasing the turn radius until your power or accuracy suffers. Then stop there and refine the technique.

Rinse and repeat
All too often we (pilots) try and compensate for bad technique by increasing turn radius (regardless of the degrees turned). I know I've been guilty of it before. A lot of the time our time would be far better spent of refining our current techniques before increasing turn radius.

Blues
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[trigger 0]

Problem i have from personal experince going for larger rotations say 270 and above,i find the riser pressure increases so much that i have difficulty in maintaining my dive due to the fact that in my case the riser pressure increases so much that i cannot keep the damn thing "locked" down.
May not be a problem for the stronger man tho

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

I seen many a pilot completing large rotations[360's and some]and simply not achieving much in the way of speed or distance because imo the turns have been relatively "flat"

Maybe Ian can branch off our discussion since we've wondered a bit off topic now...

I agree but I think there's a fine line between too flat and too steep. I believe that a "funnel" turn like I referenced earlier is a nice match between the two, regardless of how you make the turn happen. I also believe that each canopy/pilot combination has a max velocity that it can travel. The overall goal is to reach that speed without having a dive that is so steep that you loose your speed while your canopy is using its lift and the pendilum effect to recover from the dive. However, I think that most canopy designs (I say most since I've flown most of the popular canopies on the market and can only speak for them) have a point that if you try to achieve what I alluded to as a "perfect" turn by a HUGE degree flat turn, you will reach the point in which the canopy is trying to recovery before you reach the max velocity of the canopy.

So the way I look at it is too steep: looses speed in the recovery and won't stay at the max velocity. Too flat and you will never reach the max velocity.

So there's a fine line in between the two schools of thoughts that will have you coming through the entry gates with the absolute most speed possible for that canopy/pilot pair.

What is that technique? Hell if I know, that's the genie in the bottle, if I knew that you'd see my fat ass in parachutist all the time winning medals. Am I trying to figure out what the best technique for me, my canopy and my wingloading is? Damn straight.
Right now the best results I'm personally getting trying to reach that magical balance is using that "funnel" turn and really cranking it over through the last 110deg or so of the turn. That's letting me build up speed gradually then really "throw" the canopy around to really build some hard-fast speed.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

All too often we (pilots) try and compensate for bad technique by increasing turn radius (regardless of the degrees turned). I know I've been guilty of it before. A lot of the time our time would be far better spent of refining our current techniques before increasing turn radius.

I fully agree. That's why right now I'm only playing with bigger turns (mainly up top and trying to figure out how the canopy responds through out the turn, etc) and am still working hard on getting my 270s perfect through a course with this new canopy...well, quasi new, I've had it for a little while now.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[dharma1976 0]

I was doing 180s at the first attempt at the pond swooping meet at the ranch this year...

it worked pretty damn well for me...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

I was doing 180s at the first attempt at the pond swooping meet at the ranch this year...

it worked pretty damn well for me...

Yup, it doesn't matter if you can turn 1400deg and swoop 700ft at over 100mph if you can't hit the gates.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."